Sooooo confused and depressed!

[oscar10405]

Hello, hello....well, today has been rather crappy!  He's been very hard to put down and even harder to resettle after the 40 min wake up. 

The wind still bothers him, but really only at night, I think....the whole 'doing a poo' thing is a drama for him.  He's such a light sleeper, really, doing a fart will wake him up!  Even when I'm doing the pu/pd and he's just about asleep, the house will creak (you know when the temperature drops in the evening) and BANG! he's awake - I'm in trouble if I have a runny nose because even a sniff will startle him!  :shock:

We had a phone call from the sleep centre and we've booked in for September 5th, for a week.  I can cancel at the last minute and they know I am trying the BW methods so he's got a month to get better!  I know that sounds mean but seriously, my health is suffering and ultimately, so will my relationship with my baby if I don't start getting some sleep as I'm not much fun these days.  Unfortunately, the clinic have the cots in a separate room, just off yours, which is not my preference.  I like him near me.

So - that's today, Day 5, not very successful!

xx

[Onewoman]

Thanks Chell, I like their names too :lol: And as for having another baby after the first one, Ruby wasn't planned (nor was Ella for that matter)! We have a 12 year age gap! :lol: But I am so glad I did have her, even with the difficulties she has brought me such joy (I say this as she is shouting and screeching, she is supposed to be having her nap!  :roll: Do you have any ideas on this Chell? See has started screeching at sleep times and the 45 minute mark, til I go and settle her.)

I have had a few thoughts for you Jane, especially after reading your last post. He really should be getting the hang of it by now. I'm wondering if you are letting him do the mantra cry on his own? This is a kind of shouting, but is not real crying. With Ruby it's a shout anyway, but your lo may have a different kind of mantra cry. It's important to leave them alone when they do this and only go to them when it is a proper cry.

The other thing is, does your lo like to sleep in the pushchair or car? To make things easier on you, you could take him for a walk for one of his naps and it could help him get a better sleep so the sleep training is a little easier as he won't be so exhausted and over tired. I agree with Chell and just concentrate on extending a couple of naps - you must be frazzled.

I have pulled this off my wall and thought it might help. I have it written up, so I remember what to do.

1. WIND DOWN - shut curtains
                       - swaddle
                       - sit/cuddle
                       - shh/pat if cranky until nice and relaxed (eyes closing 
                         for you) and put down
                       - if fighting it, arching, fidgeting etc. put down

Leave the room (or go hide out in the room where he can't see you)
If he starts to cry (not a mantra cry) then:

2. PICK UP/PUT DOWN
                       - try to settle in crib with shh/pat (give it a good go e.g.
                         3/4 minutes)
                       - pick up if crying
                       - hold him until crying stops and he is relaxed and
                         breathing deeply or shh/pat if he can't settle, again
                         until he is relaxed (should be no more than 5 mins and
                         don't hold him beyond his being calm and relaxed)
                       - put down
                       - (if arching or fidgeting put down at once)
                       - leave a hand on him for a little while
                       - move away as he closes his eyes

3. REPEAT IF NECESSARY

You might have some other bits in there like talking to him quietly.

Another thing that crossed my mind is are you and your man both there when you are doing it? It may distract him if you are. It might be better to take turns doing a nap each and decide on one of you doing the night and then swap the next night.

If he is a very sensitive baby, then is it dark enough and is his mattress nice and comfy? Also, as you don't swaddle and use a grobag, could you use a light sheet to tuck him in tight so he doesn't wake himself up with his arms and legs moving about?

Big Hug to you Jane, well done for keeping going  I'll check back later to see how things are going.

[oscar10405]

Thanks Susana....(I panicked when you wrote he should be getting the hang of it now...doesn't it take longer with some babies?!!  :?

I'm not doing things exactly as you wrote....I am having a wind down, we cuddle to some slow music, it calms him down but I don't wait until he's sleepy, just quiet, I could be holding him for 20 mins if I wait till he's sleepy?  Then I put him in his sleeping bag, have a brief cuddle then say "okay, it's time to sleep" and put him down. 

He starts grizzling as soon as I put him in the sleeping bag, he knows what's to follow I guess.  I put him down awake and he starts crying right away, not a mantra cry an angry cry and he starts rolling over on to his back (we put him on his side to sleep) and arching and getting upset.  I pick him up and he's calm very quickly then I put him down again.  I put him down as soon as he's quiet, literally straight away - should I hold him for longer?  The post by JenApple on P/U P/D board says to put him down immediately?! He gets upset and fights me.  Eventually we get him down but today it's taken a good 20 mins to do so, one session was 30 mins.

He's also always waking up at 40 mins, except for that one miracle sleep!

What am I doing wrong?  I can see by your post that I'm not leaving the room - I'm very confused....I thought once they were calm in the cot we sshhpatted them until they were asleep, and then some more to make sure they get over that 20 min drift off sleep? 

Please help me!? I want to do this right....
 
So.....do we leave them when they close their eyes?  I know that Oscar will start crying if I don't stay until he's very asleep? 

Does he need to be very sleepy before he goes in at first?  I can't get my baby sleepy unless I rock/walk him around for ages and this is what I find hard because it's physically so tiring?! 

Sorry, feeling discouraged again! 

My husband and I take turns - I totally agree it's too much if we're both in there.

I have a wrap that I've placed over his bum and tucked in at the sides of the mattress so it's like a firm hand on him.

Please help...... :cry:

[chell]

Hi Jane, sorry to hear things are still difficult, I'd say this is to be expected and I think sorting it is going to take a bit of time. You have to remember that so far, for the majority of Oscars life he has learnt to go to sleep in a different way. This is all completely new and alien to him. He's been used to sleeping with you and he is objecting to this, but don't feel bad  -you aren't rejecting him, because you're still there.

1.On the 9th when he woke 6 times between 7 & 12am did you feed him?

2.Are you able to try to put an extra feed in during the day?

3. Have you tried swaddling?

I remember you saying that you try to keep the  house quiet so as not to disturb him. I quite understand, but it is probably best not to keep things too quiet else it could create different problems - like you said today about just getting him off and then waking cos someone made a noise.

Good idea about the mantra cry. Don't go in immeadiately yuo here him squeek. Wait until he's really saying he needs you.
 If he starts grizzling as soon as you put him in his bag (jacob used to do this), I'd say make sure he is calm not crying before you put him in his cot.

Back arching can be a sign of tiredness/overtiredness. This may be why it is so tough for you right now. You really need to observe and know his cues for tiredness and catch him just before.

I want ot carry on .lots more to say, but going to have to go for now. Will talk to you soon.

Cherylxx

[chell]

Oops, back again!!

See page 86 of baby whisperer for signs of tiredness - did you get your book?  o/tiredness includes - arms flailing, cry getting louder and louder, kicking legs, or grabbing ears, scratching face. The cry can be misinterpreted as hunger.

It might be worth putting him into his bag, then having wind down, so yuo don't have to disturb him again.

I like your routine Susana. Jane, I'd say this is a good one to follow.
It's fine to put him down immeadiately he is calm. I think this is the official way of doing it. I found that holding him to the point of him becoming sleepy worked better for me, because I was comfortable with it, but it probably took a bit longer than just putting him down immeadiately.


Gotta go again. I think you will do it if you keep going and dont give up. Jacob would imprrove and regress.

Cherylx

[Onewoman]

Oh ! Sorry Jane, I didn't mean to get you worried :? It just concerned me that you weren't getting at least a few hours sleep from him a night. Is he waking up every 40 minutes? My heart goes out to you   

The problem is shh/pat and pu/pd go together and different people do it different ways. I have re-read the book to see what it says and am copying this out pretty much literally.

Shh/pat is this:

winddown, put in bed, if he is calm leave him to settle himself. If he cries shh/pat him in bed until he is calm and drifting off(at which point you can slow the shh/pat, to the point where you just leave a hand on him) or if really unsettled keep shh/patting. If he usually has a jolt 10 minutes after falling asleep and wakes up, shh/pat through this. The point is to, as much as possible, keep him in the crib and to let his eyes shut on his own with you doing as little as possible. If he doesn't settle in the crib pick him up and shh/pat til calm then put down again. Repeat if necessary.

Pick up/Put down is this:.

Do the wind down, put baby in the cot.
When the child cries, go to him. First try to comfort him in bed with gentle words and a hand on his back, up tp 6 months old you can do shh/pat. If he doesn't stop crying pick him up. Put him down the second he stops crying. Even if he cries as you lay him down, put him down fully. If still crying pick him up.If he is arching put him down immediately - never fight a crying child. If your baby is burrowing into the matress, turning her head from one side to the other, don't pick up right away, instead maintain contact by putting a hand on him, tell him it's just sleep time. See if he can start to settle himself, he may lapse into  a mantra cry. Just talk to him softly, keep a hand on him or hold his hand. Continue until he is calm and falls asleep. Your hand on him is reassurance, don't tap, don't shh and don't leave the room until you see him drop into a deep sleep.

How to adapt pu/pd for young babies.
Try to comfort in his cot. If you can't pick him up hold him until he stops crying but no more than 4/5 minutes. Don't keep holding him if he is fighting you. Put him down. Try shh/pat to calm him in the cot. If it doesn't work pick him up again. Continue. (THis is what I do pretty much)

The mantra cry.
It's an odd burst of a cry which most babies do as they are settling themselves down. We don't pick up with a mantra cry, instead we hold back to see if the child can settle himself. We do pick up with a genuine cry. The success of pu/pd depends in part on knowing the difference between a mantra cry and a genuine cry. The mantra goes waa...waa...waa the pitch and tone is the same throughout. A genuine cry usually escalates in volume.

So you see, the woman who told you to shh/pat to sleep after pick up/put down may have developed that for her child and it may have worked....but you are still his prop as you are there when he actually falls asleep and he will need you there when he wakes up or stirs at 40 minutes.

Now don't get too stressed out! Please. I didn't do it completely right at first, but Ruby was forgiving and I'm sure Oscar will be too. You have done most of it right, so are more than half way there. You just need to tweak your method a little bit.

I hope this helps...as it has taken ages for me to write it out! But I don't mind one bit. Hope tonight is better, xxx

[oscar10405]

Thanks Cheryl - I feed him at 10 or 11 pm, depends on when I fed him before putting him down. Then I feed him at 2 or 3am.

He woke up every hour last night again - this morning I fed him at 6am and we fell asleep in bed till 7.30!  Oops....

I'm very confused about the patting and shushing - please can you clarify what to do here? 

Do you stay with them patting them to sleep or do you leave the room while they are awake? 

Tracy's book has not arrived yet......thanks........

[oscar10405]

Thanks Susana - I have just had another trying session and I started to cry and yelled at my husband that I can't do it anymore.  I went in at 40 mins to see what he was doing (this is the second nap of the day, the first one he only got 45 mins because he would not go down again after that) and he was just looking at the side of the cot, quietly.  For 5 mins he did this, then started to get cranky, I tried to shh him and pat him but he got cranky and started getting hysterical again and REALLY awake.  I gave up.  It just doesn't seem to be working for us.  Maybe he is one of these babies who won't ever go past that 45 min nap mark.  How do you know this?  It's just all too damn (sorry!) hard.

I do appreciate your long response - I really do.  I'm just not coping anymore.

[oscar10405]

Me again :?   I've read and re-read all my information and I still don't get it.  REALLY simply....where am I going wrong with putting him down?  Putting all the other factors aside......can you pretty please read this and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Put him in cot, say 'it's time to sleep etc'. 

Scenario A (rare): He doesn't cry when I put him down.  Do I then WALK away, leaving him totally awake or do I shhh pat him to sleep and stay until he's asleep? 

Scenario B: He cries.  I would shh pat him until he gets a real cry going then pick him up, he usually calms instantly, so I put him down straight away, he cries, I try to shh pat but will end up picking him up and putting him down several times.  Eventually, he will settle down and not cry when I put him down but I CONTINUE to shhh pat until he falls asleep and stay there until he's in a deep sleep, then leave.

What are doing wrong here?  I'm so sorry to be a pain.  :oops:

[Onewoman]

I'm sorry things are not going well. I hope I can clarify.

You are trying to teach independent sleep, so that he doesn't need you to fall asleep or resettle when he wakes or rouses. So he needs to be allowed to fall asleep on his own, though you may help him settle and relax the rest is up to him.

If you put his down and he is quiet, move away. Let him try to soothe himself off to sleep. He might fidget, toss and turn, yelp a little, slam his legs down, do the mantra cry. Through all this you leave him alone - it is his baby way of trying to soothe himself. The only time you go to him is when he does a genuine cry, when he is saying Mum/Dad I really need your help to settle.

When he does the genuine cry. Go to him straight away. Try to settle him in the cot with soft words, shh/pat or just a hand on him - whatever you feel works best for him. If still crying, pick him up, wait for him to stop crying, (I wait until they are relaxed) then put down again. WHen you have done this a few times and they are quiet. Say night night and leave. (Hide in the room) wait, listen and watch. He might do the things I mentioned above, like arching or something like that. Leave him and only go to him if he does the real cry (he may lay fidgeting for 20 minutes or longer and that's fine). This way he will learn to fall asleep on his own, without any help which is your goal. Shh/patting to sleep is for much younger babies. And I feel strongly than shh/patting him to sleep is hindering your progress.

I'm sure if you stop the shh/patting to sleep he will start sleeping a lot more!

Take care, xxx

[chell]

I do see where you are confused. There are two ways of doing it. One is to p/s until they are asleep. The other is to allow them to settle themselves. If Oscar is in his cot quietly and happy to be there, then just leave him to it. Only go back in when he is really crying, then start pu/pd.

You have made progress. It may feel like forever, but it has really only been a few days. The main thing is to be consistent and persevere. I know this is tough, when you are just learning the methods but you can do it.

Cheryl

[oscar10405]

Thanks ladies....I understand a little better now.  Just not sure if I have the energy to try the new way of leaving him alone - feel like we'll be back at day 1!  xxxxxx  Will post if I have any more success...

[oscar10405]

Sorry, just realised you deserve a better response - Susana - you have explained it great in your last post - i finally get it. 

Mark and I have been accepted into the residential clinic for a 4 day stay in the 2nd week of September.  I think it's important we go, I am really tired now and - dare I say it - possibly PND.  I spoketo a nurse yesterday and she said they are more for attachment parenting and won't do control crying if I don't want them to and will try to find a resolution that's best for me and Oscar.  I think I need someone to babysit me for a few days and watch everything I do.

I think I will try to do the self-settle thing only occasionally, that is, if I see he's super-tired and will not fuss too much.  I won't push it because I think it's mean to re-train him now, and then in a few weeks, make him learn new things again in a strange place.

I will let you know if I have any success, either way - BIG hugs and thanks for your support so far......xxx

[chell]

Hi Jane, Yes I think that is a really good idea to try to get someone to babysit for you. Do you have anyone to do this?
When I said leave him to settle on his own, i only meant when he is quiet and happy to be there, not if he is crying because he needs you.

Have you been to see your Doctor about feeling depressed? I would really recommend it, they may be able to prescribe something just for a short while and even have someone to come and offer you some support. I'm not sure how the system works over there.

That sounds good - what the nurse said about not having to do controlled crying. Seems like they are more person (baby)  centred than I thought.

Please let us know how things go.

Cherylxxxx

[oscar10405]

Hi Cheryl, I am keeping a check on my mental state - I know when/if the time comes that I need help from my GP, at this point, I know that my spirits would lift dramatically if I can get Oscar to sleep etc

I can see clearly now that we have done the wrong thing with Oscar in the last 8 days - that is, we've patted him to sleep and he's not learnt to go to sleep independently at all.  For some reason, even that method is going down the toilet too and we are having big battles with him again, like Day 1.  He is now crying as soon as we enter 'the room'!  I could turn back time and start again but like I said before, I'm not sure it's fair on him to try again with it all. 

I will just try to get through the next few weeks I guess!

Tracy's book arrived today - maybe I'll use it IF I have another baby (oh please not another spirited/touchy baby  :roll: )

If you like, I will let you know how we go in September....

xxx