Please don't hate me - how the **** do you wake them up???

[Eden's Mum]

It is only early days, but DS2 is so very sleepy during the day he will actually sleep for 12 hours in the day waking only for brief feeds, and then falling asleep on the breast after only a few minutes. We then as a result are having very broken nights not becuase of the waking to feed issue, we were prepared for that, it is because he wakes to feed and then wants to play as he has all this energy from the day time sleeping! He keeps us awake for hours at a time.

I feel like we ahve tried everything that common sense suggests to a - wake him up and b - get him to go back to sleep at night time.

to wake him up during the day we ahve tried undressing him, changing his nappy, delaying his feed when he wakes for it, cold flannels, poking and prodding, picking up, putting down, loud stimulating noise, quiet gentle sounds, silence, baths, going outside in the cold. Nothing makes him stir, if his eyes are open, it is with that glazed I am really asleep look and you turn your back for a second and he is gone again!!!!!!!!!

to put him to sleep at night we have tried ignoring him after ensuring his needs are met, taking him down stairs and stimulating him by playing and chatting with him  for a couple of hours ( this works but we loose several hours sleep a night. we thought it a good idea at first as it seemed preferable to even more hours of screaming because he was bored but now we are exhausted!), cuddling him in the dim light after a feed so that he has attention but only the bare minimum and then it is settleing down attention and not really stimulating.

the ironic thing is that he actually is an angel baby really as he will happily put himslef to sleep if he is drowsy and all his needs are met. we just cant get this body clock thing sorted out! Anyone got any ideas as I am whacked out already!  :oops:

[Isom'smom]

I don't know if you want to try it, but I do have a suggestion.  Caffeine.  About a half ounce in the morning bottle for three days.  (Mountain dew, or tea or whatever).   I know what your thinking, but with premies who have to stay in a hospital for weeks, they get their days and nights mixed up, cause there are always nurses around and lights on and everything, so three days b/4 they go home, the nurses put caffeine in their morning bottle for those three days.  Their bodies get used to being awake in the morning, and it's not enough so that they get addicted.  Whatever you choose to do, I hope ya'll get straightened out soon.

[Deb_in_oz]

Clare - how old is DS2??

i personally never heard about the caffeine but am not a nurse - i think you should tackle getting days and nights sorted by being consistent.

first - no matter what happens you cannot play and chat with him in the night time.  you are sending him mixed messages and reinforcing his belief that it is daytime/playtime.  any feed times after 7pm shoudl be in dim light, no eye contact and no chat/play.  if he is having difficulty settling you use pat/ssh consistently rather than giving in and getting him up - he will learn soon enough that dark = sleep/rest.

second - to counter that, when it is a daytime feed/awake time you turn on lights or open curtains if it is nice and bright out..., greet him happily and smilng, eye contact... so he now realises - the day is starting/ light = day/play.  I always greeted my girls at the first waking with a little made up "good morning" song and helped them stretch their arms and legs.

third - not knowing how old he is - if it is the first few weeks he can be sleeping loads in the day (i personally would limit naps to maximum of 2hr 15 = 3 sleep cycles) as long as you are getting him to take FULL feeds regularly.  if he is older than 3-4 weeks i would pursue the awakening strategies further just so there is a clear awake time - it does not have to be long, you just don't want him to feed and fall straight back to sleep - that is for night time.
 :arrow: if you sit him up on your lap he will wake up - it is a natural reflex - his eyes should pop open automatically.  you could have 10 min of "playtime" on your lap where you sing or chat with him.
 :arrow: nappy change halfway through the feed if he falls asleep after a snack, this should at leaast get a bit more food in him so he can gain the energy he needs to stay awake a little longer

fourth - just as i did a song/stretches to indicate the start of the day, we have always done bath and massage to indicate bedtime from a very young age.  sometimes if last nap went really late and we still wanted a 7/7:30 bedtime we would literally dunk them in the bath for 2 minutes and then get out and dry/massage and ready for bedtime feed.  it just sets the message in their brain - bath = getting ready for nighttime transition.  you don't even have to use soap etc if you don't usually bathe them every day, just the setting and routine send the message, not the washing or length of time.  a few times (due to vomiting/illness) where i have had to bathe them in the morning i kept the evening bath and massage just to keep the routine going
 

when you tell me how old he is we can think of some more strategies. of all the problems i have seen i do think this one is fixable with consistency - he just needs to re-learn the day/night

[Eden's Mum]

Hiya. He's only two weeks so it is really early days yet. (she says trying to keep things in perspective! :lol: )

What we have been doing since about day two is the whole bath massage and story with DS1 followed by into the crib between 7 - 7.30pm. he goes down really well and we have stuck with this routine since as it worked so well for DS1.  Lately our response at night time has been a bare minimum approach , keeping things dim although not pitch black. we have a nightlight on all night so that I can see to feed him when he wakes and because he was getting distressed when he couldn't see anything at all when he woke. I feed, burp, change and then feed on the other side and burp again before returning to crib.

Last night he didn't do too badly because we had actually managed to get him awake for a while in the day which helped alot.

In the day there is loads going on as DS1 is about and we still have loads of visitors coming and going. i have tried siting him up on my lap but he stays resolutely asleep, eyes welded shut! when his eyes do open, we are putting off the feeds as long as possible as he falls straight to sleep otherwise. Also we do the nappy change in the middle of the feed but he usually sleeps through that too, and if he doesn't the second he is let go, he settles back down again even firmer than before, even if he has no nappy on!!!!

Weight gain is very good so he is getting enough milk and plenty of energy - maybe he is just putting it all into growing. he was 8lb 11oz at birth and 2 weeks later is 9lb 6oz! 


Thanks for the advice so far - any other ideas?

[Jaime]

Debra's given you lots of great advice... only wanted to add that you just need to keep it up.  ds was a lot like your lo and he about drove me crazy!!  he would have slept all day if i let him, but he would never go more than 3 hours before popping up at night.  the one thing that worked the best was just getting him wet.  it would usually wake him a little bit.

just make sure you are very obvious about the difference between night & day.  you may want to cover his window to help keep it really dark at night.

and to give you an idea on time... luke was about 7 weeks old by the time we'd fixed his clock.

[Eden's Mum]

Seriously guys nothing will wake him! We really are doing all the stuff suggested but he stays so soundly asleep it is impossible to do anything wiht him.

Arrow if you sit him up on your lap he will wake up - it is a natural reflex - his eyes should pop open automatically. you could have 10 min of "playtime" on your lap where you sing or chat with him.
Arrow nappy change halfway through the feed if he falls asleep after a snack, this should at leaast get a bit more food in him so he can gain the energy he needs to stay awake a little longer

we really have tried these things - wiht ds1 it would have worked no problem but ds2 stays asleep through nappy changes, clothes changes, baths, cold flannels you name it. He isn't really taking decent feeds now, although he is still gaining weight, so even though i try all the ideas for getting him to wake during and after a feed it is useless. He feeds for about 5 minutes and then is asleep again. i take him off an dput him down immediately. Occaisionally he will wake enough for me to get him back on again, but usually that is it and he wont wake up again for ages. i feel if we can get the feeds right in the day we might have a chance at night since he wakes every 2 hours sometimes even hourly in the night for a quick snack and then is asleep again.

I have been making him wait for feeds in an attempt to make the next feed better and thus also keep him awake longer but i do feel there is only so long that you can keep them screaming for before you really have to meet their needs.

May be this should be a post of the breast feeding board on reflection. I just didn't have this problem last time. I am so exhausted and irritaed by it all though. I can't sleep in the day as i have ds1 to entertain and frankly dh is being a bit useless at times. H e wants me to direct him and if i don't then he does nothing. not one for initiative over this really.


any other ideas anyone? I am starting to take it out on dh and ds1 and it really isn't fair but i am ceasing to function rationally!

[branwen]

I have another idea- just something to throw out there as my dd was also VERY sleepy.  We had to wake her every 3 hrs for 6 weeks until she naturally grew out of sleeping so long.

Are you single side feeding? I didn't in the beginning and I feel that exacerbated our sleepy issues. If not I'd recommend starting, it's just the baby can fall asleep because of the hormone in the milk that first comes with the letdown which is why they get so sleepy eating.  They need to get to the heavy calories in the hind milk to actually get more awake, esp during the day.  What I did was pump after every feed to get to the hind milk and then my husband would finger feed her at the next feed (tube with syringe) or I would supplement at the breast with the syringe, so she was actually taking more of the hind milk.  You get a good latch and then slip the tube into there mouth on the side of the nipple, so they drink from both   This stuff should not interfere with breast feeding.  A lactation consultant can show you how to do this stuff- it was really great when she came to the house.

Like you we tried everything!  Nothing worked as you say- she would sleep upright!!! Until we got her to actually eat more she wouldn't wake.

In terms of the night waking, don't feel bad if you're feeding every 2 to 3 hrs (you are breastfeeding!!! so don't feel like you have to go 3) but always put back to bed with no interaction as others have stated.

Hang in there...and know that it will take awhile to get him going- it's ok!!!

Oh, at this stage once you get a good feed going (at least 20 min) definitely put back to sleep straight away.  At two weeks I wouldn't worry about establishing official awake time, because that is just the feed time right now...at least that is my perspective with a sleepy 2 wk old!

[branwen]

Oh, sorry, more to add :wink: ...um, if you're finding yourself really full at each next consecutive feed, you should try pumping off some of the letdown at first...hopefully this could try to up your fore to hind milk ratio.  Just an idea?

[Eden's Mum]

thanks, i will give it a go. He's certainly gaining weight ok, but as you say, he might be more wakeful if we can get more hind milk in him. Will let you know!

[Deb_in_oz]

He isn't really taking decent feeds now, although he is still gaining weight,

since he wakes every 2 hours sometimes even hourly in the night for a quick snack and then is asleep again.

 I am so exhausted and irritaed by it all though. I can't sleep in the day as i have ds1 to entertain and frankly dh is being a bit useless at times. H e wants me to direct him and if i don't then he does nothing. not one for initiative over this really.


 I am starting to take it out on dh and ds1 and it really isn't fair but i am ceasing to function rationally!

First and most important - if you are ceasing to function rationally you need to have a chat with Dh about being more hands on / take more initiative because i have been where you are and can tell you that the road ended at PPD for me.  you need to make sure you get rest and eat/drink enough. 

i was in the trap of "she's gaining weight" so it is "fine" but i really feel it is a problem if they are getting the MAJORITY of the calories overnight.  what happened to me was my daytime supply just kept diminishing and we ended up on the bottle at 3 mo.  which worked out for me but may not be what you want.

also - 2 weeks is still VERY early so theless pressure you put on yourself the better for you and baby and your milk supply.  stress is a major bugger for all of that.  unless you suspect there is a medical issue at play (and i would mention to your doctor if he is not more awake by 3-4 weeks which is the usual "wake up" period) then i think you are doing whatever is in your power and just keep it up until he responds.

as long as you ensure he is woken for regular feeds and do not let him do his longest stretches of sleep (more than 2 1/2 hours) for his naps i would wait and see what happens over the next week or so.  some babies do start out extremely sleepy and you have to give them time to adjust to the world.  Btw - did you have a difficult birth??

it is quite hard at times with 2 kids and you have to do what you can to meet everyone's needs including your own and ds1.  definitely consult a LC if you feel there are problems with his eating or your supply.  i will try to think of anything else - maybe i can go back and re-read some books.

[branwen]

Deb is right about your dh helping you more if he can.   My dh was actually a bit better than me about getting dd awake--you know mommy is so nice and warm stuff didn't apply :wink: .  He was actually better at the finger feeding because of this.  Unlike your situation my dd was loosing weight fast because in addition to being a very sleepy baby she also had a poor latch (because she was so sleepy) vicious cycle.

I second what Deb said though about loosing the day supply, I'm not sure I would have been able to continue breastfeeding if I hadn't continued to pump during the day for the first month.  I know with your other child this kind of 24-7 devotion to breastfeeding to get on track might not be possible for you.

As Tracy says in the book sleeping issues are feeding issues and the other way around.

Was your baby early at all?  Mine was 2 weeks and they said this could be the reason- she was still in "womb mode".

[Eden's Mum]

Typical. we managed today after a long, long struggle to get him awake for a couple of hours in the afternoon. He was reluctant to nap then even though he was getting tired, and then when i next fed him he fell fast asleep on the breast despite my best efforts to take him off before he lost  conciousness and put him back on when eyes were open. It was really late then - not late enough to call it real bed time but too late for bed time to be 7 / 7.30pm so I took account of 45min sleep cycles and managed with a lot of effort to get him awake again for 1 and a half hours in order to do a sleepy time routine and feed and get him down for 8.15pm. It is now 10 pm and he has screamed pretty solidly ever since i put him down.

This morning he was completely unwakeable - now nothing will put him to sleep. We never had this with ds1. we had other issues but whilst he didn't sleep easily we would spend time awake without us having to spend literally hours cajoling him awake. I am starting to wonder if there is something more wrong.

I just really want to spend time with ds1 and not have to deal with all of this.

[branwen]

I could be wrong about this but 2 hrs of awake time is too long...once you get him up he is probably getting overtired, which is probably why he is inconsolable.

It sounds like you are getting burnt out- is there someone to help you?  I would really try to get a home visit from a nurse esp. one with breastfeeding experience!  if you can't even take the time to call (I know how it is) get your dh to call for you or maybe mother?

Seriously I would have died if I had not had my mom there the first two weeks and the home visits the first week.  I don't think anyone understands how difficult a sleepy baby can be.  Everyone tells you that you are so lucky, but it is just as much work!!

[branwen]

Oh, I would personally throw the whole routine thing out the window right now and just try to concentrate on getting good feeds and getting him more awake to eat (not necessarily for interaction).  The last thing you should be worrying about is the routine.  If that means feeding every hr or every two I would do it!  Any little tiny stirring from my dd (especially during the day) my dh and I would rush to stimulate her to try to eat.

[Deb_in_oz]

Clare - I am sorry it is getting so stressful for you. maybe we can take a step back for a minute.

you mentioned you got him up for a 1 1/2 hour sleep time and feed routine. do you mean he was awake for that 1 hr 30???  at 2 weeks that is way too long and that would be why he screamed for ages he was overtired and exhausted.

when we talk about keeping him awake a bit at this stage it is more of an aim of 5-15 minutes on top of a feed.  my first barely stayed awake beyond feed and nappy change for first 3 weeks or so - within 5-10 min she was yawning and we put her down. 

all we are aiming for is a break between eat and sleep so he does not get fed to sleep and at this rate i woudl say for the next few days just feed him and as long as he is taking a good amount then put him down...  there is no rush with a newborn to get them "sleep trained". 

when he starts becoming more alert then you can work on having up time after the feed. that is what i suggest anyway - give him some time to adjust and you go and enjoy some time with ds1.  make your goal for this week just to ensure hje is getting good daytime feeds so he is not waking hourly for food snacks at night.  when you have eliminated that he will probably start having some more energy during the day and stay awake a LITTLE more (baby steps remember)

talk soon
Deb