Author Topic: we are in a rut - please help !  (Read 2483 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Khyan & Sahria's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 10
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 956
  • Location: Western Australia
we are in a rut - please help !
« on: August 18, 2005, 15:06:28 pm »
Well... here goes  :roll:

Khyan is 16mths and has been unwell with minor illness after illness for at least 2.5mths  :cry:

He is no longer sleeping well - mostly he wakes in the early evening (7pm - 12am) sometimes 2 times sometimes 6 times, and then he seems to settle throughout the night till between 5 - 5.30am where he decides that he won't sleep and wants to just cry  :cry: this crying can be in his room while I try to put him back to sleep or even if I get him up for the day! It's obvious to me that he is still really tired. But he just won't go back to sleep  :? and I have tried most things that normally work when we are desperate including bottle and rocking  :shock:

I am anxious to start PU/PD again to see if that helps with our wakings but with him being unwell I am concerned for our poor little guy and the crying involved  :cry:

He is struggling on 1 nap now and mostly wants to be back in bed by 9am (probably cos of the early waking !) I hold out till normally around 10am and then he only sleeps 1.5 hrs max and sometimes will refuse an afternoon nap or will want to go down at 5pm and then bedtime is disrupted.

For the last 2 days I have encouraged 1 nap at around 11am which has gone ok for the nap (1.5hrs) which meant for early bedtime of around 6.30om but still he must be REALLY overtired because he just won't settle in the evening (wakes every 45 mins for several hours) and then wakes really early still.

Our routine is all over the place because I never know what naps are going to be like  :roll:

He is miserable for a lot of the day and plays up all the time with throwing toys, trying to hit things, crying, screaming, climbing on anything he isn't allowed on and looking for me (so I know that he is doing something he shouldn't be doing  :shock: ) and throwing himself on the floor when he doesn't get what he wants  :?

He does a horrible screwed up face with a scream cry for about 10 secs and then opens 1 eye just a little to see if I'm watching and then starts again (unless I have walked away in which case he follows me and then does it again)

He longer allows anyone to put him to sleep but me  :shock:

He is slowing getting his eye teeth - 1 has broken the gums and another is playing peek-a-boo!

I just don't know where to start as he is has an ear infection that is taking a long time to clear (day 8 of antibiotics - went to dr yesterday who said stick to it at least for 10 days and then a couple after the antibiotics  :shock: ) and he also has really snotty green nose !

I am at a loss as to what to do as I want PU/PD but can't at the moment

HELP - I'm going crazy ! I am starting to think he will never get better and I will be stuck with a grumpy child forever  :roll:
Michaela
Khyan & Sahria's Mummy




Offline elfin

  • BW Devotee
  • ****
  • Showing Appreciation 5
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 345
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 16:41:41 pm »
Hi Michaela,

Ooohhhh, I really feel for you!!

First off I wouldn't do any sleep training until you know that he is 100% healthy and feeling better.  I know it is hard and frustrating, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel!  Does he have a doctors appointment soon, like a follow-up or anything for his ear infection?  Once you know he is better then we can get down to business!

I remember you did some sleep training before.  Had you gotten to the point that he was falling asleep independently?  What was his bedtime routine like?  If he was falling asleep on his own then he knows how, and will remember.  It will be hard on you and him, but sooo worth it in the long run.

A couple months ago Myles got his first ear infection, and it created utter chaos with his sleep.  He napped on my bed watching a video for a couple days before he was diagnosed, and then this continued after for a few days, because he would scream his head off in his crib.  I remember thinking I was going to lose my mind, and that my good sleeper was gone for good.  Then his night sleep was terrible in terms of getting him down for the night, and he would fight me for what felt like forever.  Once I knew he was better I took action.  I spoke with Jane (Matthews Mommy) and she told me that he had developed a new way to go to sleep, and because he is at an age where he is testing, and because I had given in to him all those times, he was basically protesting in a very loud way when he would scream in his crib.  She helped me with a plan and I stuck to it.  It was a rough couple days, but then he was right back on track.

Let me know where things stand right now, and I'll help you with a plan!

Carrie
Carrie

Myles 12/06/03

elfin@thebabywhisperer.com

Offline Khyan & Sahria's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 10
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 956
  • Location: Western Australia
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 12:07:27 pm »
Thanks Carrie

Yep it's really frustrating but I realise that I need to wait till he is feeling completely better. He doesn't have a dr appt as I went back last week and was told to finish the antibiotics (2 days to go) and then sit tight for a couple of days and see what happens  :roll: If he doesn't seem MUCH better then I need to go back to see the dr.

Unfortunately Khyan never was able to go into the cot wide awake instead he goes in drowsy and I gently put my hand on his bum till almost asleep and then leave. However he still wakes every 45 mins for atleast the next 3 - 4 hours  :roll: With naps he needs to be even more drowsy before going into the cot  :shock:

So believe me I know I have my work cut out for me. But I'm am so commited I just have to wait out the illness - hooo hummm!

The problem is that he just seems to go from sickness to sickness - just as one is leaving the next is arriving  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

Thanks again - fingers crossed I will survive the next few days and that he will be 100% and ready for our sleep training journey  :D
Michaela
Khyan & Sahria's Mummy




Offline elfin

  • BW Devotee
  • ****
  • Showing Appreciation 5
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 345
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2005, 01:11:02 am »
Hi Michaela,

I hope he feels better soon!

Keep me posted!

Carrie
Carrie

Myles 12/06/03

elfin@thebabywhisperer.com

Offline Katet

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 608
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 14364
  • Sydney Australia
  • Location: Sydney
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2005, 01:25:59 am »
Michaela, I know where you are at with the sleep & being sick & them wanting to sleep so early.
have you tried letting ds have a short nap at 9am (wake him up after 45 mins or maybe less) & then giving him the normal mid-day nap (probably need to make it 1/2 hour later... but no more as you might get back into 2 naps a day. I have found that actually works with ds even now when he is sick & playing up & I know that he is not well & needs his sleep but won't do a longer mid-day nap or night sleep to get the time in.
Try not to let him do it more than 2 days in a row & if the first day he struggles with the mid day nap only offer 20mins... just enough to stop him being over tired.
You say he always has to be drowsy to go to sleep, that may also add to the problem... maybe set a time line to do baby steps to get to the point he goes into the cot awake... we set a month long plan to get from me having to be in the room while Aiden fell asleep to being able to put him in his cot , walk out & that was it... until our 1 -2 night wakings, which is another story & was a result of me doing a quick fix solution when preg & as yet not willing ot put in the hard yards to fix.
I can give some ideas on getting past the needing to be drowsy stage, that I resorted to when ds was sick if you like.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline Khyan & Sahria's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 10
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 956
  • Location: Western Australia
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 04:27:05 am »
oohh ooohh yes please!  details would be fantastic  :D

I have him back on 1 nap at the moment and he seems to doing ok but we'll see how that goes  :roll: (but its great advice for the mini morning nap - I will keep it in mind for next time) and with the 5.30am wakes - I just know that it is a habit because it is almost to the minute  :roll:

Once he is better I will tackle this and saying that, his nose seems to be amost dry today and he seem to be able to breathe better and tomorrow is the last dose of his antibiotics so hopefully it is only a couple more days before I can get stuck in  :shock:  :D

Fingers crossed that he doesn't get another illness in the mean time  :shock:  :shock:  :shock: - LOL !
Michaela
Khyan & Sahria's Mummy




Offline Pigeon

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 50
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 1074
  • Location:
I feel for you!
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2005, 08:59:35 am »
Hi Khyan's Mum,
Its horrid when they are ill isn't it? Megan has had a few ear and throat infections and became very restless at night. I would agree with other posts that suggest increasing the number of naps in the day if you can (I'm a firm believer that sleep breeds sleep -especially during illness), but I know that's easier said than done....
For the longer term, have you thought about any alternative medicine? I only ask because I was warned by my doc that Megan may have inherited my trait of throat infections (I used to get tonsillitis ALL the time when I was little). I really didn't want her to keep on having to take antibiotics all the time, and she, like Khyan, would recover from one thing only to go down with something else.  :cry: So I've resorted to homeopathy - she seems to be responding really well to the remedies she takes (which is basically boosting her immune system and flushing  out  toxins from when she had her jabs) - I take her every 6 weeks or so for a consultation. Obviously, its summer time over here, so she's not prone to coughs and colds anyway at this time of year, but she hasn't had as much as a runny nose since we started.   :shock:
Its just a thought, but may help you in the long run..... :?:
In the meantime, I hope you and Kyhan feel better soon! Hang on in there
Laura, studying SAHM of
Megan Isabelle - April 2004
William Harvey (Billy) - March 2007

Offline Katet

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 608
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 14364
  • Sydney Australia
  • Location: Sydney
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 10:03:18 am »
Michaela, I wrote some of the "baby steps" I used to get Aiden to go to sleep on his own & then lost it. I will get back to it tomorrow when both the bosy have their naps, or after bed time. Just had to try & remember all the stuff I did. I took a few months as I took things slowly... but worth it as we can now put Aiden to bed & leave the room with him wide awake & then get on with our night.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline Katet

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 608
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 14364
  • Sydney Australia
  • Location: Sydney
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2005, 04:05:05 am »
Here is roughly what we did, Aiden was about 16 mo too I think & we were modifying it slightly every few days
Firstly had a good bedtime routine, we had bath, dressing stories 3 chosen by Aiden from a set of 6 "bed time books" & then the last was a short one "Teddy bear teddy bear go up stairs, tb tb say your prayers, tb tb turn out the light, tb tb say good night". We do this every night.
While the last story of Aiden's is being read he says good night to the 6 animals in his Noah's ark toy (cloth one)... he takes Noah (known to him as "santa" due to the white beard) to bed with him.
When we do the teddy bear book he kisses his big puppy toy & teddy good night... teddy then gets put in bed & then Aiden into bed.
When we started this, when Aiden got into bed we used to say sh teddy is trying to get to sleep, you have to help him by being nice & quiet.
I took a bit of the pressure off Aiden by focussing some stuff on the teddy... like if Aiden got more upset at some stage, I used to say "did Teddy wake you up, or sh you don't want to wake teddy up"

as you mentioned you only put Khyan into his cot drowsy... well the first thing you want to do is focus on letting him be less drowsy & more awake, so more settling takes place in the cot. Once you get to the point where you put him in awake, you then try to remove the hands on settling you do there, so eventually you reach the point, he doesn't need you.

In the beginning expect it to take longer than what you do now, because what you want to do is, put steps in between the drowsy stage & the hand on his body stage, so you can remove the drowsy stage & then move towards removing the hand on body stage.

Now my first thing is this is just a rough plan of what we did, you won't be able to follow it to the letter as you need to take into account the variables of your lo, each day, his health & how tired/grumpy he is at bed/nap time.

I'm guessing you rock him in a rocking chair to get him drowsy... if it is anyother way let me know.

After he is drowsy, put him down in his cot & rather than just placing your hand, gently pat for a while telling him good night or nighty night or what ever suits, slowing it down as he drifts off... then after a few days, try to put him down less drowsy, so you will need more patting & quiet talk. The aim is to gradually wean him off needing to be drowsy to go in the cot.

Once he goes in the cot awake, you then have the patting & talking to get him off to sleep & because you have got him used to this step, he is less likely to stand up & balk at it.

Then you gradually wean him off the patting, I did it by going from doing it on his nappy area, to his ankle ( so he knew I was there) to then doing it on the cot mattress ( not touching him). Also along the way I used to slow it down every few days too so I was only patting the mattress once to a count of 5, then by the end it was 10.
I always kept saying the nighty night through this, about every count of 5. So once he no longer needed me to pat, I still sat beside & said nighty night every count of 5... then less so say count of 10 etc. Then the next step was to move closer to the door & then outside the door etc.
When I got outside I then started doing nighty- night, count 5, nn, count 10, count 15 ext...

Now sometimes I had to go back a few steps, say when he was overtired or sick, I might have to go back to sitting in his room for a few days & then continue the progress.

I will be honest sometimes I felt like I lost my whole evening, I was exhausted & there were many times I felt it was 1 step forward & 2 steps back, but it eventually paid off.

I think the key is to move at the progress that you & your lo feel comfortable with ie don't change things on days you know you or Khyan won't be able to cope wiht the change.

Also you may find some steps don't work, but something else works... the thing I know is you want to gradually reduce your involvement, so sometimes you may 'pull out' too soon, or stay at a step too long, but just be consistent & think of it in terms of say you learning to drive... some parts came easier & others you needed a lot more practice to get there & then suddenly it all fits together as second nature!

that is it in a nut shell, feel free to ask clarification of steps if you decide to follow something like that.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline Khyan & Sahria's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 10
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 956
  • Location: Western Australia
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2005, 07:24:52 am »
Thanks Kate for that step by step plan  :D

At the moment Khyan is held upright head on my shoulder and I gently rub his bum or back until he is drowsy and then I put him in the cot and continue, sometimes he really doesn't want to be held and he just fusses till I put him in the cot and then he whinges for 5 secs till he goes off to sleep.

At night he gets a bottle before he gets a cuddle, most of the time he was a little dozy on the bottle and I talk to him to encourage him to wake up alittle more and then I put him in the cot most of the time he does the fussy thing and rolls around a bit before going to sleep. But there is no bottle at nap time.

Then in the middle of the night we don't pick him up unless he is REALLY upset, mostly we just lay him down and put our hand on his bum till he is almost asleep then we leave.

My question is:

What did you do in the middle of the night? was it PU/PD or patting ?

Should I stop giving a bottle in his room or maybe keep the lights on or
sit him up and read a story after?  - what would be your recommendation ?

Also, why would you recommend slowly adapting our sleep technique rather than just jumping straight in with PU/PD? is it because it would be really hard on Khyan?

Thanks again
xx
Michaela
Khyan & Sahria's Mummy




Offline Katet

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 608
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 14364
  • Sydney Australia
  • Location: Sydney
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2005, 10:44:59 am »
I did all my stuff before I found BW & Aiden rarely stood up in the cot, he just lay there crying.
Night wakings mostly I would pat him off/ just be there, but if he was (still is as we are just starting nightmares?!?)) upset I would pick up & cuddle until he was calm & then put him back in. We are getting new carpet in his room next week & he is moving into a bed, which will be interesting for us

I would give the bottle in another room, to distance it from sleep, you will be wanting to wean him off that sooner rather than later, so I think the further from being put in bed the better.

The reason I was suggesting slowly adapting, was due to the fact you were already there, with the hand on the bum & him in the cot & off to sleep from a calm state,not say feeding to sleep or rocking & then moving him once he is asleep
If you were to do PU/PD, it would actually require him to get up & be more alert... maybe it won't work for you but the method I used, I could do sick or well as it was a gradual withdrawral of my presence & it worked really well for me & my dh, sure it took some time, but often I would just sit in his room & do relaxation breathing excercises... something I strongly recommend doing before the bed time routine if it gets you as stressed as it did me ( I used to breath in to 5 out to 5 & try to slow it right down to 10/10... I used the method to deal with insomnia due to PPD).
 I know PU/PD also works well for many people, but it is kind of something that can only be done when they are well. I also don't think I would have had the stamina for PU/PD if Aiden had been the type of child that stood up, rather than rolled around. I also think that if you change things gradually then there isn't as much protest, which makes it easier on the parent & if it is easier on everyone, well it stands to reason there is less stress.

I think you said somewhere, you have to trust your insticts & not "do" what you think is the "right thing by the book"... That is something Tracy does point out BW is about knowing your child & she says somewhere in one of the books that she is trying to give the broadest ideas, but it does take tweaking to match your child... Michaela, what ever you do & how ever you do it I think the most important thing to do is to know you are able to carry it out to completion... as a friend of mine said she let her dd CIO when they gave up the Dummy, after a week of an hour long crys at nap time & no naps... they gave in, she rightly said "I put us both through that all for nothing.

I will admit, we have great naps (with a dummy) & Aiden goes down like a dream at bedtime (no dummy), but while I was preg, I fell into a bad
habit of giving him the dummy at night wakings  (I was sleeping so badly, I didn't have the energy to resettle & he was getting his eye teeth & won't take pain meds). We generally only get one per night & if I;m lucky I'm up for Liam, so he might be woken by him anyway but, he calls out "Mummy Dumna" & won't stop until he gets it...Not looking forward to weaning him off that, but hoping by Christmas he will be willing to give it up to Santa for a trycicle
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline Khyan & Sahria's mum

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 10
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 956
  • Location: Western Australia
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2005, 02:50:26 am »
thanks for responding  :D

We have pretty much been doing the same as what you did when it comes to sleep training in the last few days.

Mostly because surprise surprise he is sick AGAIN ! and as I wouldn't dream of letting him get that upset whilst sick I decided that instead of just giving up while he is sick that I'm better off trying to do something in the mean time.

I must admit though that when he gets too upset that I am picking him up (just while he is unwell) after he gets better I will probably review our techniques and see whether we are truly getting somewhere and if so we may stick to it otherwise I may need to go onto PU/PD  :roll:

I think my biggest problem is that his 5am wake is truly an issue as NOTHING seems to work to put him back down, well on the odd occassion a cuddle works but normally he just cries in my arms for about 1 hour and then we give up and start our day  :roll:

I do wonder if he is hungry as he does indicate that he is ! however he gets a snack (like a couple of crackers) and a 240ml bottle before bed so I don't know how else to stop this early morning hunger - saying this I must admit that I am the kind of person who jumps straight out of bed absolutely starving  :wink:

Thanks again
if you have any other advice my ears are open
xx
Michaela
Khyan & Sahria's Mummy




Offline Katet

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 608
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 14364
  • Sydney Australia
  • Location: Sydney
we are in a rut - please help !
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2005, 10:55:31 am »
the horrid 5am wakeups... yes we still get them, but I can get Aiden back off with his Dummy, but still I am out of bed! But at the moment I'm not so sure if he is being woken by Liam at that time, as I seem to hear them both.
Have you tried just giving him a drink of water in a sippy cup? Since last Summer I have always left a sippy cup in Aidens cot (now beside his bed... we did a very succesful transition last week) & started going to him & telling him where it was. Maybe quenching his thurst might help, he is also old enough to find it by himself if you tell him where it is a few times.
I think the 5am hunger bit at his age, could well be habit, rather than need, esp if he has been fed in the night for some time... I'd keep at it trying to hold him off until 6am & see what happens if you offer water!
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05