Author Topic: Nap before bed  (Read 2628 times)

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Offline Tanith

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Nap before bed
« on: August 18, 2005, 17:15:04 pm »
Hi, I have just started my 5 and a half month old on the pu/pd as he is still not going through the night. am currently combo breast and bottle, his prop is the breast, just gave him a bottle feed at 5.50pm and he fell asleepafter drinking 4oz. managed to wake him for about 5 mins, but nothing I did seemed to stop him nodding off. I put him down in his cot barely awake, and now don't know what to do about bed time! what if he sleeps till 7-8pm? (we were up nearly all night last night!)
Tanith

Offline Matthew's Mommy

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Nap before bed
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 01:13:37 am »
I take it that you are supporting him with a daily routine?  what does his day look like so far?

The late afternoon cat nap, should be between 30-40 mins. in length.. any longer and it will through off his bedtime and his body rhythm. 

Generally, you want to work towards a morning nap of 1.5 hours (or 2 hours) afternoon nap of 1.5 hour (or 2) and a late afternoon cat nap, which you will phase out after 6 months.  Many parents will make the late cat nap, a stroller walk or a car ride sleep, because you are trying to make a distinction between his morning and afternoon nice long naps.. also you soon be weaning him off that cat nap and it makes it easier to wean off when it's a different type of sleep.

Can we help you with your daily routine?
Jane
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Matthew July 27th, 2001
Brendan October 21st, 2004

Offline Tanith

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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 14:17:59 pm »
:oops: really have just started, any help you can give me would be amazing, I didn't have these problems with my daughter(now 5), but I guess the second child doesn't get as much attention. his "routine" as we are loosly refering to it is;
(this is discounting the previous night feedings, as they are irregular and also we have not had them for past 2 nights with the pu/pd method)
wakes and breast feeds between 7-8am
breakfast (solids) 8.30
naps between 10-11 (this has been anything between 15mins and 1hr)
mid morning breast feed around 11.30
lunch (solids) 12.30 followed by more breastmilk leading to nap for about 30min -1hr
more breastmilk about 2.30 followed by dropping off again between 15mins and 1 hour
dinner (solids) 5pm
formula milk about 6.30 but this has been known to drag out for over an hour
bedtime at 8pm.
as you can see we have gotten ourselves in a bit of a mess! would really appreciate your advice!
Tanith

Offline Matthew's Mommy

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Nap before bed
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2005, 19:33:01 pm »
It's okay.. alittle tweaking and lots of consistency is in order!

For the next two weeks (or more.. probably not though!), make life as easy as possible. Delay appointments, get togethers etc until he is sorted out and can handle it.  If possible, see if your older child can go to a friends house during the day.. makes your life loads easier! If not, then give her lots of activities during the day.. she's 5 years old and probably knows how to occupy herself!

Make his morning wake up always 7 am.. don't let him sleep in past 7 am, it's throwing off the rest of his day and his body rhythms. So while you are supporting him into a new daily routine, wake him up every day at 7 am. Give him his feed.. and then breakfest 1 hour later.

Make his morning nap no earlier than 9 am.. but try not to push the time past 2-2 hr. 15 mins, or he'll hit fatigue mode and will have a rough time settling.  Prior to his naptime wind down, do a pre-wind down. Take him outside for a carry walk.. Start this around 8:45.. a little walk about looking at trees, feeling the wind etc.. nice and soothing. This will stimulate the "calming" hormones.

Then do a consistent wind down routine.  Make sure his sleep environment is conducive to sleep-- dark and low stimulating.

You mentioned you are doing pu.pd. Awesome.. that is a great tool to teach sleep and continue to instill trust.  It's hard work, but so worth it!  A better alternative to CIO and Controlled Crying.  Make sure you are doing it correctly-- Tracy's new book has all the tricks and how-tos for pu.pd and I always recommend it.

Keep his feed around 11:00, depending on when he shows his signs of hunger. And lunch 1 hour later.

His next nap would 2-2.30 min. from his morning nap wake up. Again, do a pre-wind down and then a wind down routine. Make sure he is going into his bed awake but drowsy and do pu.pd if needed. 

He'll probably be ready for another feed around 4:00 ish.  And may need a short nap around 5ish.. that's typical of 5 months old.  Make this a stroller walk, car ride type of nap.  I know this sounds counter-babywhispering.. but what you are doing is making a distinction between his morning and afternoon nap, from his late afternoon cat nap.  You want his body/brain to recognize that his naps in his crib, which are motionless and depend on his ability to self soothe, to be longer than one sleep cycle (longer than 45 mins.), whereas the late afternoon cat nap, is a motion-induced nap-- a completely different kind and quality of sleep, lasting no more than 30 mins, and will give his body just enough energy to make it to bedtime.. which will probably decrease his fussiness and crankiness in the early evening (if you are experiencing this).

Dinner upon waking from his shortnap.

Start his bedtime routine after 6 pm.. and aim for bed by 7 pm.  Anything later, will take away from his night sleep and affect the quality of his nightsleep and his pre-dawn sleep (4-6 am).

Using pu.pd will really help you teach him to take good naps and have good night sleep. Make sure he is going into his bed at night, awake but drowsy.  Sometimes the pre-bed top up feed can induce sleep, so if he falls asleep during the feed, wake him up.  Soon he will associate this feed with just feeding, and going into bed for falling asleep.

It does take time to straigthen out his daily routine. Some days will be great.. some days will be wonky and messy.. don't worry.  This is completely normal.  And keep reminding yourself that his days will improve.. he just needs support and guidance towards havng great days!

Hope this helps and let us know how it;s going!
Jane
Whispering since 2001
Matthew July 27th, 2001
Brendan October 21st, 2004

Offline Tanith

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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2005, 20:45:20 pm »
:D thanks so much Jane, I really appreciate the help. Last few days have been hell, and keep wondering whether we are doing it right! have printed out Tracy's sleep interview and with that and your routine guide, lets hope we can crack this! Will keep you posted, but just want to let you know how fantastic you are giving up your time to support others.   :)
Tanith

Offline cwolff

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Nap before bed
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 21:37:05 pm »
I have a question along the nap lines.  How do you do pu/pd for extending naps?  If they wake up brighteyed and want to get up, then what do you do.  They aren't crying, do you just leave them in the crib?  And won't that teach them that the crib is for playing and not sleeping?  And pu/pd for nightsleep, you wait for them to start crying for whatever reason, and do you try to soothe them in the crib first?  Then do pu/pd?

Offline Matthew's Mommy

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Nap before bed
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2005, 20:25:17 pm »
Hi there..

Don't worry about the playing in her crib, if she wakes up happy in her bed at the 45 min. mark, give her a chance to be by herself and if she gets upset and appears tired, then help her resettle into sleep. 

Many babies will wake up at night, chat and babble about in their beds, and then get tired and fall back to sleep. If she does this at night, leave her alone to talk and babble, then when she gets upset because she can't fall back asleep, then go in and help her resettle. You can do pu.pd now, since she's 3 months and up.  First help her settle in her crib, patting or shushing or whatever she responds to.. and if she needs further support (ie. hysterical crying), then use pu.pd. Withpu.pd you have to make sure that you are not picking up for every cry.. only for the hysterical, I need you cries. The fussy, mantra cries, just help settle in the bed.

Her night sleep will settle before her day naps will.  Generally, it takes about 3 weeks for the circadian system to completely sort out. So, I would work on the night sleep, and try to guide the day sleep.  Most babies will have difficulties with day sleep between the 3 and the 4th month.  Hang in there.. it does improve.. we'll help you tweak it and survive it!
Jane
Whispering since 2001
Matthew July 27th, 2001
Brendan October 21st, 2004

Offline Lucysmom

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Nap before bed
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2005, 21:42:24 pm »
Hi Jane - I am interested in what you wrote about babies having trouble with day sleep between the 3rd and 4th month.  It seems all of the sudden things are not going as smoothly with my dd's naps (she is 12 weeks today).  The jolts are much more extreme and she is having trouble staying asleep past one hour.  Don't know what an hour represents with the sleep cycle but the last few days she has been waking up exactly an hour after she fell asleep.  And it also much tougher for her to fall asleep.  I tried pat/shush to extend her naps and that just seems to annoy her now.  Today she made it past one hour and I watched her and she just was moving around tons and grunting and definitely opened her eyes a few times but resettled.  I was on pins and needles watching her!  We had a wonky day today (my birthday so we had visitors) and she fell asleep on me around 4:10 and she still woke up at 5:10.  She was CRANKY so I put her in her bouncer seat with the vibrate on and she is asleep again.  I don't ever do this but it is catnap time anyway so I figured I would give it a go and let her sleep a bit more and then get her up for her bath and low key activity time.  I try to have her asleep at 8:15/8:30 so hopefully things will not be too terrible trying to get her to sleep tonight  :? .

So what is this difficult day sleep phenomenon with babies her age?  Is there something I should be doing to help her?  She is on 3 hour EASY and I have been keeping her A time to 1.5 hours per 3 hour cycle.  I have found that she is often not hungry at the 3 hour mark so I am feeding her every 3.5 hours sometimes (so EAS/AEAS).  I figure this just means she is transitioning to the 4 hour EASY (she is FF). 

Anyway, would love to hear more about the wonky month I may be having vis a vis day sleep.  I was getting used to having some me time!!! :(

Thanks!

Offline lisa regent

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baby wakes up 6 times a night
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2005, 21:17:37 pm »
Hiya Jane I'm new to the site and wondered if you could help me! I think my 9 mnth old is sleeping too much in the daytime and its ruining his night sleep, this is his routine
7am awake bottle 8oz
1 hr play
1 1/2 hr sleep
10am breakfast solid
12pm lunch solid
3pm bottle 8oz
4-6 sleep
6 dinner solid
bath
7.30 - 8.30 sleep
8.30 bottle
9.00 bed
he then wakes a few times during his first hour for his paci, then he sleeps from 10 till about 1 then he can wake every hour or so throughout the night just for his paci and to see my face I think, do you think you can help? he is my first baby and I think we have done things wrong from the start.
cheers Lisa & Ben
My gorgeous little boy Ben was born on the 28th November 2004

Offline Matthew's Mommy

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Nap before bed
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 15:20:21 pm »
Hi Lisa,

Two things come to mind.  His morning awake time is short, but most likely due to the multiple nightwakings.  You have to tackle these nightwakings first, before we short out the day.

How do you feel about completely stopping the soother?  I feel that it's the barrier for your little guy to having a good night sleep. Essentially, he doesn't know how to fall asleep independently, and the soother is a prop.
His day sleep is fine, just a little misplaced-- which is causing a later bedtime. But it's the soother that is causing his night wakings.

So, if you choose to cease the soother use.. we can help you with that. I will be honest, it will take a few nights, and in the beginning it will be completely and utterly stressful and hard work. But in the end, your little guy will become a better sleeper-- at night and during the day.

I'll check back,
Jane
Whispering since 2001
Matthew July 27th, 2001
Brendan October 21st, 2004

Offline lisa regent

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Nap before bed
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2005, 19:49:13 pm »
Hi Jane,
thanks for replying so quickly, I have already adjusted Ben's routine just from reading what other mums do on the site and its already been a great success, I have cut out Ben's after dinner nap and he is already sleeping much better at night he wakes maybe once or twice at the most and I put his soother in and he goes off straight away.
so the big question how do I wean him off the soother? he is not a big fan of it and doesn't always need it to go to sleep but he does need it when distressed as soon as he goes to sleep he spits it out. So is this going to be hard or easy to do?
cheers Lisa & Ben
My gorgeous little boy Ben was born on the 28th November 2004

Offline Matthew's Mommy

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Nap before bed
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2005, 00:21:39 am »
Uh.. hehe.. I kinda chuckled when you asked if it would be easy or hard to do.. it's all a matter of perspective!!

Really, in the beginning, yes there's going to be lots of tears and Ben will need lots of support to settle. So, do your wind down routine, without the soother, if he has a lovey then make sure he has that. Then put him into his bed when he's looking ready.  You can do pu.pd to help him settle, just make sure you are familiar with the technique in order to be successful.  The first few days are going to be rough.. but babies have short memories!!  The best thing to do, is to start it on a Friday, so that you have support on Saturday in order to rest and recover. (in case your night is rough)

Also, keep yourself calm, and know that he doesn't really need it! He will develop his own way of self soothing and calming himself.

Hope this helps!
Jane
Whispering since 2001
Matthew July 27th, 2001
Brendan October 21st, 2004

Offline lisa regent

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Nap before bed
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2005, 19:43:06 pm »
Thanks jane I will try that but to be honest I am terrified of taking it off him, he just picks it up and pops it in himself now when he finds it lying around which is quite funny to watch but I know he's getting more and more dependant and I also know that its because of the soother that he's waking at night so I have to start it really soon I'm just trying to pluck up the courage!
I am the mom he is the babe, I am the mom he is the babe:lol:
can you tell who wears the trousers in our family?
Will let you know how we're getting on
thanks again Jane
My gorgeous little boy Ben was born on the 28th November 2004

Offline Aarismom

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Nap before bed
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2005, 22:33:32 pm »
Melissa,

Between 3 and 5 months, day sleep develops in the rhythm. What it turns into is utter chaos for naps. You may have a great napper, and then all the sudden they start taking 30 and 45 min naps!! UGH, frustrating, isn't it? I'm going through it right now, and I'm beyond frustrated.

The first thing that develops is the morning nap. You may see that your lo starts taking a decent morning nap, and a bad afternoon nap for awhile. Sometimes it switches, or you might just get 45 min naps. This happens between 3 and 4 months. But it's not quite over yet. Suddenly, now all your naps are between 30-45 mins long, and that seems to happen for awhile. What is happening is that the biorhythm is adjusting itself again, and afternoon naptime is developing. this usually happens between 4 and 5 months (it's not supposed to be so bad, but for me, the 3-4 month time wasn't so bad, but the 4-5 month time is really annoying me). By 6 months, day sleep will have worked itself out for the most part, and you may have some peace for awhile napwise. That's assuming you've picked up the pattern your lo is now sleeping, and you've phased out the 3rd nap.

Do exactly what Jane said, wake them at the same time every morning, start putting them down around the same time every day for naps, at around 2-2.5 hours of awake time depending on the nap (starting at 4 months). You still may only get 45 min naps during this time, but remember, it will pass.

Hope this helps in understanding a little! And let us know how you do!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P


Texbook/Angel LO
April 26, 2005

Offline lisa regent

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Nap before bed
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2005, 21:10:04 pm »
my little angel slept through for the first time last night, he slept from 21.30 till 07.45 this morning I cannot believe it I have been telling anyone who will listen all day :lol: he didn't wake for his paci although it was still in the cot with him I haven't had the courage to take it off him yet :oops:
Although I still got up about 4 times to check he was ok I think it will take me along time to get out of that! His naps are really good he goes down at 10am and has from 1-2 hrs and then he goes down again at 3ish and has the same nap time again and then thats it till bed between 8 and 8.30 I am really amazed by this routine buisness I really didn't think it mattered that much but I can tell that he knows his own routine it's really wierd, my partner thinks I'm mad I have wriiten him a schedual to follow when I am at work and I ring him at every nap time to make sure he's sticking to it!
Thanks very much for all of your help girls, I promise to try harder with the paci :oops:
Speak to you soon
Lisa & Ben
My gorgeous little boy Ben was born on the 28th November 2004