Need a plan desperately!

[Lucysmom]

Hi -

I had 19 days of blissful wonderful great nap days and now we are back to square one it seems.  My dd is 12 weeks.  Her naps improved right after she got her first round of immunizations.  She was just so tired after she got her shots she slept 9 hours straight!  The ped. said not to wake her and she had loooong naps the day after her immunizations as well.  And our nap problems seem to have just gone away over night basically (strange, but true).  Well, now they are back and I am trying to find the root of the problem and then begin to try to fix it.  My head is spinning and someone else's input would be appreciated.

Some thoughts I have/background:
-  Developmental issues?  She just found her fist and can keep it in her mouth and suck on it.  Also, she is REALLY vocalizing now.  She "talks" constantly and loudly.
-  She is on 3 hour EASY but recently was trying 3.5 hr EASY as she did not seem hungry at all at the 3 hour mark.  Feeding is still not going smoothly all of the time.  If I remove the bottle from her mouth oftentimes she will not take it back.  She is formula fed.
-  She did drink a lot more yesterday but I don't know if I can blame this on a growth spurt.  She has been sleeping through the night/not needing nightfeeds.
-  Her A time is 1.5 hours.
-  She has been going to bed at 8:15-8:30, having a DF at 11, and then sleeping until 6ish.
-  We have a consistent naptime routine and I may have been putting her to bed too late.  I would wait until her eyes were drooping/closing A LOT (and sometimes closed for a while  :oops:)  and then putting her into her crib and patting for 20 minutes or less.  When transferring her to the crib her eyes would be slightly open most of the time and I have seen her yawn and settle herself in her crib.  This was just last week actually.
-  Before, she was able to handle the jolts no problem.  I would just notice her breath shudder.  Now she has DRAMATIC jolts and this morning at the 10 minute jolt she SHRIEKED and was crying within seconds.  Her first nap of the day was just 30 minutes  :shock:  and I was there holding her legs down but not patting and I was not able to get her back to sleep.  Maybe I need to pat as well.  She is always swaddled in a miracle blanket.   
-  I just tried putting her in the crib as soon as her eyes started closing and she cried bloody murder when I put her in the crib.  I don't know what to do.  Pat/shush or start pu/pd? 

I would like to have a set plan before trying to fix this as I don't want to confuse her more and depress me more  :? .  I also have not been able to identify the root of the problem precisely.  THANKS!!!!!

[Meg's Mom]

Hi Melissa

I need some more information:

-can you post your full schedule so I can see more clearly what is happening during the day.

You wrote:
"Before, she was able to handle the jolts no problem. I would just notice her breath shudder. Now she has DRAMATIC jolts and this morning at the 10 minute jolt she SHRIEKED and was crying within seconds. Her first nap of the day was just 30 minutes  and I was there holding her legs down but not patting and I was not able to get her back to sleep. Maybe I need to pat as well. She is always swaddled in a miracle blanket."
So I am clear, were you there before the jolt?

Also have a look at this thread, I was helping in a similar situation...tell me if you think a similar plan would work for you? http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/what-should-i-do-vt39287.html

[Lucysmom]

Hi -

Thanks sooo much for your reply!      

The huge jolt I mentioned where she shrieked I was not there.  So for the next nap I stayed there patting.  I noticed the 10, 20, 30 minute jolts and then the 40 minute jolt came.  Mind you, I had not left her side at all and had not stopped patting and the 40 minute jolt came and she went from being motionless, sleeping nicely to wide awake in a split second.  I have never seen anything like it.  So I kept patting and added shush and I was able to extend the nap.  I stayed there and patted for more time.  In the end I was there for almost 2 hours  :shock: patting (and shushing as needed). 

Our troubles really started once we started having feeding problems, meaning she is not interested in eating at 3 hours.  She would not want to eat as much and then we would end up with night feeds.  I switched to a faster flow nipple per the advice of other BW ladies. 

Before I forget, where in the book does it detail how to switch from the 3 hour EASY to the 4 hour one.  I think I should be doing this and am confused about how to coordinate her eats and sleeps!

Her schedule before was just like the 3 hour EASY in the second book except that sometimes we would be up at 6:15/6:30.  She had 3 naps of 1.5 hours and a catnap.  She went to bed closer to 8:30 and sometimes we would have a nightfeed and sometimes not.  We were not doing the df.  Since we started having these feeding and sleeping problems, dh is doing the df.

Here is an example of a wonky day but she ate well this day:

Night feed 4 AM - 5 ounces.  She had also become unswaddled and was cold.
Never fell back into deep sleep, made tons of noise and dozed (literally a noise/grunt every 5 minutes or so).  Was sleeping peacefully for like 20 minutes and then up at 7:30 (this is late for her).
7:30 E - 5 ounces
8:50 S Woke up at 9:50 extended a bit to 10:20 but she never really slept well after the initial wake up
10:25 E - 6 ounces
11:40 Did a light feed per Deb's post and she took 3 ounces
12  S  I had to wake her up at 2.  She was hard to wake up and keep awake during/after her feed.
2:10 E - 6 ounces  Was basically sleep eating
4:00 S
4:40 Awake 
5:15 E - 2.5 ounces
Catnap around 7 for approx. 30 minutes
7:30 E - 6 ounces consumed off and on over one hour
8:10 Bath
8:40 Asleep
There was a 4 AM nightfeed - dh did not do DF (fell asleep)

Wow this ended up being really long....so sorry.  If you have any thoughts about what I should do next I would love to hear them.  Thanks for your caring concern and generosity.  Hugs to you and your cute dd (love her picture  )!

[Mom2X&F&V]

Hi again. I think you should really try the 4 hour EASY as you are feeding with formula. My dd was doing 45 min naps until I stop worrying about them. I was sooooo concerned about her sleeping so poorly that I transmitted everything to her. So if she wake up I play with her and 10 min. later she was sleeping by herself, I guess she realised that I was no longer on her all the time. After 1 week she started sleeping more and even in the nights. So now if she wakes up she put herself back to sleep after 1 minute of ignoring her. She plays in her crib until fall asleep again. I already started pu/pd in the night time (8:00 pm) and is working great. She also is not eating like she used to, but ped told me that they as well have periods of not eating as well as the growing spurt, and that I have to respect her 4 hour routine even if she didnīt eat as much. Ped told me that it comes a time where they adjust the quantity of formula so it may stay at 6oz. for now on. Let your baby stay more awake and always put her down for naps at same time. I think I posted my routine so you can see what is like the 4 hour easy last week in your other question... Hope it gets better.

[Mom2X&F&V]

Here is again
My routine goes like this: is more like EASAE
7:00 E (6 oz.)
7:40 A (just diaper change)
8:00 S
10:30 A
11:00 E
11:40 A
1:00 S
2:30 A
3:00 E
3:40 A
5:00 S
6:00 A
6:30 (BATH TIME)
7:00 E
7:40 Windown
8:00 or 8:30 S
11:00 DF (3 or 4 oz.)
AND GOOD NIGHT TIL 7 AM !!!!!!
Ok... sometimes 6:30.....   :wink:
Let me know if you need anything. In the book look up where pu/pd comes maybe its there. Or  in the index...

[kellyhushhh]

My ds is 12 weeks on Saturday and has been sleeping through until 6 or 7am except the last two nites he has had a feed at 4am, i think this is an obvious growth spurt, However i was thinking of maybe starting to work towards the 4 hour easy as he doesnt seem as hungry today taking only 5 ounces compared with normal 6 or 7 ounces.He is also doing the 45 min naps which are driving me mad!! How and when shall i start this transision, i know you increase activity etc but can someone just confirm so i know i am doing it wright and whether its a good idea or not. He is 141bs and 12 weeks on saturday. Thanksx

His normal day is 7, 10,1 ,4,7, 10.30am sleep until 6 0r 7am x

[Lucysmom]

I found the info about transitioning to the 4 hour EASY.  I'm such a dope but I did not expect to find it in the pu/pd chapter I guess and had not read the chapter as I was strictly a pat/shush kind of girl!    :lol:   I think I will have to start pu/pd as now with pat/shush she just looks at me like I am crazy.  It used to work.  And I think that I have been putting her down too asleep and I don't honestly know now if she knows how to fall asleep on her own.      I will have to do this on my own as dh works all of the time and I have no family here or friends who can help. 

In any case, I feel better as it looks as if I have a plan.  I know that the road will be tough but I will just have to keep my eye on the prize! 

[Mom2X&F&V]

Well then, good luck!!!! Iīm sorry you donīt have help near, but you can surely count with me. It may help that our dd are the same age. So here I am to help as long as I can. My dh works all day too...  but I now know that its always like that... mothers are the ones who raise children and they become presidents...  so hang in there and look at your baby and everything is worth it. Hope I can help more...

[Meg's Mom]

Hi girlies!
Lucysmom - it looks like you have a plan...start a very gradual move to 4hr EASY.  You can even go slower then what Tracy has on pg 229-230. 

for the jolts - for the next few days, I would recommend you stay there and keep presure on her (like you were or even more) and see if this helps also.   I found this from Jane, our Moderator, which may help you on this. 
"I would keep my hand/arm on him (shoulder and legs) and shield his eyes with my other hand, and stayed like that as he would pass through light sleep and jolt into deep sleep. There are exact partial awakenings at the 10 min, 20 min and 40 min marks of young infant sleep. When you are teaching sleep, be prepared to support your newborn/young infant, so that these partial awakenings don't become full awakenings back to consciousness. Shielding eyes, body contact/pressure will help. Stay with your little one until past 20 mins.. even if you think she/he's completely asleep. As your little one gets used to falling asleep and staying asleep past these jolts.. you won't have to stay as long. "

Falling asleep independently: I am glad you came realize yourself that you have not yet taught her sleep.  Your aim is to put her in bed drowsy but awake.  It sounds like you are putting her to bed asleep.  And when she has the jolt, she doesn't know how to get back to sleep on her own.  So slowly back off: day 1-3 put her in bed a bit more awake, day 4-6 even more awake (but still drowsy).  If you want to go cold turkey and help her w/ shh/pat or pu/pd - that will work to but will be harder on you.

kellyhushhh - do you have the new book?  it goes into great deal on how to move to a 4hr schedule...if not i can help you.  See page:230.  Yes, you will be increasing A time and E time by 15min every 3 or more days.

BOTH: You may not need to go to a full 4hr schedule, you may get to 3.5 and find the can't go any further and the 45min naps are gone - you can then stay at 3.5 until 4mos when you can continue to make the change to a full 4hr EASY.

Tinker, thanks for offering support...parents like is what makes this site outstanding!

Hope this helps.

[Lucysmom]

Daniela - How very sweet of you to offer support!    I will certainly need it!  How is Ximena doing? Are you getting any time to yourself?  I hope all is well with you.  I am looking forward to keeping in touch with you considering our little ones are exactly the same age!  By the way, what time was she born on the 30th?  Lucy was born at 12:25 pm after 31 hours of labor!   :shock:

She just woke up after exactly an hour of sleep and I had put her down for the night.  This has NEVER happened before.  Truly petrifying.  I have to start teaching her to sleep independently.  I was initially but then I got into a bad habit of getting her too sleepy and then putting her down and patting her for about 20 minutes. 

Michelle - Thanks so much for your reply.  Yes, I will start moving towards the 4 hour EASY.  Will be starting that tomorrow.  I am thinking that I will need to learn how to do pu/pd just in case.  She can get really hysterical and thrash and patting her and shushing in the crib does not seem to help.  I have told my dh that we will need to both teach her to sleep independently and he is beginning to get onboard.  Her nights had not been affected too much thus far and he takes care of her at night (so I can sleep for 4-5 hours in a row - he's the best).  So he has not witnessed the problems she is having.  He may very well tonight from the way things are going.   :shock:   I have been staying with her during all of her naps and patting through the jolts.  This seems to be more effective than pressure.  Is patting a problem?

My biggest incentive with teaching her to sleep independently is that she is so happy when she is well rested.  It is just this week that she has been crying and fussy.  When we were having great naps and the schedule was working, she barely ever cried.  I knew what she needed and could keep her content.  She was so easy-going and she would maybe cry for 5 minutes a day.   

I have to eat something and get some rest.  I have been up 3 days in a row from 4:15 on.   :shock:

Thanks again Michelle and Daniela!!!!

[Meg's Mom]

Re: jolts, patting is fine if that is what works.

Let us know how it you are doing and if can support you in anyway!

It is Megan's 1st B-day on Sat so i probably won't have much time to check the board tomorrow and Sat, but if you need an urgent reply to something send me a PM.

[Lucysmom]

Happy First Birthday Megan!!!!!        

Michelle - Thanks for your help and I hope you are able to enjoy the party.

Have a great weekend!

[kellyhushhh]

Hi Michelle , thanks so much for your reply. i am definaltely going to start the four hour easy. I am just reading the chapter on page 230 now so i think i will start today.  Today he fed at 7.30am and had 7 ounces, i put him to bed at 9am and he slept until 10.30am!! Yes!!    but he only had four ounces at 10.30am so i definaltely think he needs to be on 3.5 hrs or four do you :?:   But i am worried now that because he only had four ounces he will wake earlier than 1.30pm for his next feed!! Its a vicious cycle. Thanks again for your support xxxx

P.s I have just put him down at 12 after being awake since 10.30am, hoping he will again sleep until next feed. So if i follow the plan i do this for the first three days and just observe and write all times down etc :?: [color

UPDATE... he had 9 ounces at his 1.30pm feed!!! Is this normal?

[Meg's Mom]

Hi, just wondering how you both are doing?

[kellyhushhh]

Hi Michelle i have sent you a pm xx