Author Topic: Concerned/ Confused Dad (Read 4393 times)

AndDad · « **on:** September 03, 2005, 20:21:14 pm »

DS is 10.5 month old. He's having a hard time with naps, both going down and staying down for more than 45. We're trying to follow the suggested routines for a 9-12 month old on EASY.

LO woke up tired this morning and it lead to nearly a whole day of him in his cot in constant PD, most of it wailing/moaning. This just doesn't seem right to me.

This last session of PD was after he woke tired and crying from a 1 hour nap. He cried for nearly the full 40 minutes of PD. I can't even tell the difference between his cries anymore.

I thought this was a cryless method, dw says this is expected untill he gets the routine.

So can anyone settle some differences DW and I have in interpreting how to do this?
1) If you have a tired baby do you just go the whole day trying to PD? (obviously with breaks for meals and shorter activity sessions like suggested to keep EASY going)?

2) Is it ok to take a break and try to restart the naptime ritual before the 40 minutes? I want to when he seems really upset after 20 minutes, DW feels we should wait it out.

3) It feels like DS is starting the day off tired, and never coming out of it. How can we break the cycle? We're planning on trying putting him down earlier tonight.

4) Also, it seems most of the board are wonderful mothers. As a husband, how can I help my DW other than staying out of the way. I'm the weak one when it comes to the crying.

Thanks.
J

LindseysMom · « **Reply #1 on:** September 03, 2005, 20:38:41 pm »

Hello, I personally think pu/pd is too stimulating for a baby your son's age. I think with his age the best thing to do is have a set/same routine for naps and bedtime and do the routine when you want him to sleep, tell him it is nap time/bedtime and put him in his crib and leave the room. Fussing is ok, just not " I need you crying". Let him fuss until/if it turns into the hysterical crying and then go in, tell him it is time to nap, rub his back, then leave. Repeat until he is asleep. This is in a sense controlled crying or check and console but I personally don't see how a baby can even begin to self soothe if he keeps getting picked up and put down. Just my opinion and I also personally never did pu/pd.

Anyway, just my two cents worth of opinion and if you decide to continue with pu/pd I am sure someone with experience doing it can help you. Also, just so you know, the bedtime and nap routines do not have to be the same. Just do each one consistently before each sleep period and it helps let your baby know that nap or bedtime is about to be expected of him.

AndDad · « **Reply #2 on:** September 03, 2005, 22:06:02 pm »

So, if he is standing(as he usually is), you would not lay him down? Just comfort him while he is standing?

Otherwise, the method you describe is exactly how we are doing it. No PU, just PD and only when he gives the hysterical cry, try to comfort then leave the room. We have a set naptime/sleep ritual. So I guess it's good to get that confirmation that were doing it as expected. And it seems to be working well for nighttime.

Any thoughts on my other questions? Especially on supporting DW.

deb · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2005, 01:28:30 am »

Yep - lay him down (maybe a quick hug while he's still standing unless that makes him expect to get picked up and gets him more worked up), soothe him, and see what he can do on his own.

If he wakes already tired, though, sometimes I find it easier to just take a day and follow cues as best I can, let the baby sleep as often as necessary (even 6 45-minute naps a day if that's what it works out to), and try again the next day. If I spend an entire day trying to "get it right," I find I dread the next day if there's been no light at the end of the tunnel, but if I take a day off that's probably a lost cause anyway, I have more stamina for it the next day and can stick with it better.

Bear in mind also that 9 months is the beginning of prime time for separation anxiety, If you're dealing with that, or with new teeth coming in, you're probably not going to make much progress till it passes, so stressing about it while it canb't really be fixed is just going to frustrate you all. See how he behaves if you leave his line of sight during the day when he's awake. If he starts to get frantic when he can't see you, then he's going to need extra soothing till it passes, maybe a week or so (at least it was for us).

Hope this helps, and welcome! Nice to see dads here too!

carolyn · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2005, 02:21:33 am »

I would say you are doing a great job supporting your wife. You are reading the book, interpretting it together and doing PU/PD with her. Just keep you head and be patient, it won't be completely tearless, but it won't be CIO either.

I agree with Deb, definately lay him back down if he is standing. But make sure there isn't something else going on. We went through this we our son at 11 months. We did a modified version of PU/PD and pat.sh combined. It worked for us and didn't overstimulate John. He was a textbook baby. Our method included laying him down, telling him to lay down, it was time for sleep, and rubbing/patting his back while playingsoft music or ocean sounds to help him calm down. The first night I counted well over 25 times and it took almost an hour. The second night he finally stopped standing but was sitting up. We told him to put his head down and continued rubbing his back. That night took about 40 minutes. It took about a week to completely break the standing habit and get him back to putting himself to sleep.

AndDad · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2005, 14:32:15 pm »

Thanks for the responses!

We put him to bed 45 minutes earlier last night. He woke up at the same time today, but bright and happy. So cheers to a good start!

When you put your LO down for naps, do they stay laying down? My DS wanders the crib and we only do PD when he gives the come get me cry.

Also, we went through the separation anxiety phase, he's fine with us leaving the room now. And no teething at the moment. We've been through 2 phases of that so far and have 6 shiny chompers to show for it.

J

LindseysMom · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2005, 15:08:55 pm »

Great to hear things are getting better. The only thing I want to caution about is that if you keep going in to put him down several times it may become a game to him. If it were me I would probably go to Lindsey once or twice to put her down and then after that she is on her own. But I do know that she knows how to sit from standing so that helps knowing that she is not stuck standing. I do know she can crawl around and even stand some in the crib but knock on wood she usually only babbles a few minutes and goes off to sleep so I really don't know if she stays laying down or not.

Hope things continue to improve.

AndDad · « **Reply #7 on:** September 07, 2005, 00:04:59 am »

Well, after 2 days of him quite happily dancing around his crib through the both naps, DW and I decided to take a step back. Poor little guy is sooo exhausted. We think he doesn't understand that he is supposed to SLEEP in his crib!

We went back to staying with him and doing PD whenever he stands.
SO frustrating. He gets into phase 3 and Boing! right back to trying standing. Not a lot of progress on this one yet. He stands, and as we go to PD he ducks down. (kinda funny actually!).

We are also looking at his schedule. 4 hour EASY seemed right but maybe not for his age. It did follow his tired signs.

On a good note he's still sleeping like a champ at night.
Jamie

Meg's Mom · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2005, 02:27:55 am »

Hi Dad and I want to say how wonderful you are so involved in teaching your son to sleep and supportive of your DW.

I agree w/ you on his schedule. Can you please post (specifically A times), I am not sure at 10+ mos that 4hr EASY is exactly what DS is needing. It maybe a modified version that you need. We do: EAEASY and repeat. Also tell us when he started the 45min naps?

You have been given excellent advice above and I just wanted to add -

-BW'ering this is not a cryless method, but a more gentle method then CIO. As you are staying w/ your DS when he is upset and not leaving him alone to figure it out all by himself.
-for supporting your DW: excellent question.... be a sounding board for her. Try to not to jump in "fix it" and together try to come up w/ the solutions/plan. Take your fair turn in sleep training. My husband helped a lot on the weekend and I was extremely grateful. He was actually better at shh/pat then me and I think he really felt proud of that. :wink:
-Remember that crying is just his way of communicating right now...he has no other way.
-my LO pops right back up if I stay in the room too. The ducking is really funny!

AndDad · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2005, 12:19:42 pm »

Thanks for the support and suggestions. It's just so hard to come home after a day of work and see that my DW and ds are more exhausted than me. She really is an amazing woman and your right about the "fix it", but it's hard to fight that instinct

You're right we are actually on EAEASY.
This is the schedule we were trying:
E 7:00 wake up & bf
A
E 8:00 breakfast(solids)
A
S 9:00 nap #1 (wishful)
E 11:00 bf
A
E 12:00 lunch (solids)
A play
S 2:00 nap #2
E 4:00 bf
A
E 5:15 dinner (solids)
A play until 6:25, bath every other day
E 6:40 bf
S 7:00 sleep

My wife kept logs and we noticed that when he did finally sleep at nap time it was at about 10:30 and 3:30. But lately this regressed to no sleep at nap time at all.

Naps have always been hard. He nursed to sleep for naps up to 9 months old. When he began having night sleep issues we discovered BW. Worked great to help him sleep the night through (was waking every other hour). It was a hard time during the days dealing teething, constipation and separation anxiety issues all at the same time.

Cheers, Jamie

LindseysMom · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2005, 14:09:55 pm »

Hello. Your easy schedule looks good. The only thing is that you may want to keep him up longer in the am before his first nap. Megsmom has recommended before that if your lo sleeps 11-12 hours at night it helps to keep them up at least 2.5 -3 hours in the am. Then depending on how long they sleep at least 3 hours between am and pm nap, maybe even 3.5 hours.

Lindsey goes down for her first nap between 10:30-11:00 and then for her afternoon nap between 3 and 3:30. She goes to bed between 8 and 8:30 and wakes between 7 and 8 am. I vary her bedtime depending on what time she wakes from her afternoon nap but aim for 3.5 to 4 hours of awake time between last nap and bedtime.

Again, I also strongly recommend that you quit going in so many times to put him down, especially if he is ducking when you come in, it sounds like it has definitley become a game to him. Especially if he knows how to get down by himself. Just my opinion though. But I really think that until you give him some time to figure it out on his own his naps are going to continue to be rough.

Hope that helps, and I am sure MegsMom may have some other helpful advice, she really helped me with Lindsey.

klt · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2005, 16:52:04 pm »

Re: supporting your dw, which of course you are doing to a great extent already, my dh really helped out when we were doing pu/pd full on and I would be exhausted by the time he got home: at the w/e he cooked up a huge amount of food and froze it, then that week when he got home and I was trying to get lo to bed he would heat it up and have it waiting for when I finally made it downstairs. It really helped, and so much more than popping his head round the door every 10mins asking if there was anything he could do!

Meg's Mom · « **Reply #12 on:** September 07, 2005, 17:12:45 pm »

the-hee - so strange to see my advice come back around - thanks for the complement!

Yes, i was going to recommend that you gradually increase his Awake by 15min every 3 days. To begin w/ aim for 2.5 in the AM and 3 in the PM. You can re-evaluate if it needs to be longer after a 2 weeks of the new awake times.

I pulled this from one of Janes threads (we work as team around here

) What I would recommend doing, is to look at setting your naps a little more by the clock, ie. morning nap after 9.30 am and afternoon nap to be no earlier than 2:00.

If he has a great morning nap, than make afternoon nap 3-3.5 hours from nap wake up. But if he is having a lousy morning nap, ie. pulls a 45 min nap ... then don't put him back down until 2:00.

Those days will be a little rough.. but you won't have many of them once you get his A time right.

Also, make sure he is going into bed awake but drowsy.. I used to wind down too long, don't rob him of the opportunity to fall asleep independently. The older they get the less wind down time w/ us they need. They want to do themself, in their crib.

It was wonky in the beginning, when he pulls the 45min naps all day and those days I would do a lot of one on one interaction, walks in the stroller, cuddles and snuggling to help him get until bedtime. I would also pull bedtime back to between 6:30-7:00.. once everything improved, then I returned bedtime to 7-7:15 ish.

AndDad · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2005, 03:13:54 am »

klt. That is a great idea!

Adding some time to his AM A today seemed to help. He had a nap!!! yeh. Just over an hour without a peep. No PM nap though. sigh.

We backed off this evening and left the room after a few PDs. He still went down no problem.

We're going back to PD only when he cries tommorrow for nap time. His feeding schedule is a little off given his later AM nap time, so I think bf and solids are going to get swapped at lunch.

Hope we're not confusing this poor little guy too much.

AndDad · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2005, 23:18:55 pm »

Just an update.
Night sleeps are awesome! 7PM to between 6:30 and 7AM. Settles himself almost immediately.

Mornings are improving. From none to 45 minutes. To wake to sleep for 1 1/4 nap. To finally 1 1/4 hour straight through. Still needs some help getting to sleep with a few PDs.

We settled on laying him in his crib and leaving the room. PD on cries.
The extra A in the AM and the earlier bedtime I think were key.

Still no afternoon nap. But he might have today if hadn't pooped right in the middle of settling. Oh well, when nature calls.

Cheers,
Jamie

Meg's Mom · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:42:37 am »

Hi Jamie

Thanks for the update, so glad to hear you are making progress! From where you were 1 week ago!

What is happening for the pm nap? How long are you giving him to fall asleep?

Keep up the good work!

AndDad · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2005, 19:39:58 pm »

I think I'm part of the problem. DW does all the naps during the week. So today when I did it, it was almost back to square one. He did finally fall asleep snuffling.

I think I'm off nap duty until we get into a solid rhythm of sleeping. We trade evey 2 days for night time and that has been smooth.

In the PM nap we give him 3 to 5PM when he has his dinner. We do breaks every 40 minutes or so.

Meg's Mom · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2005, 20:12:32 pm »

When you say breaks...do you mean take him out of his crib? If so, at his age i would recommend you give him at least 1hr to fall asleep during which you continue w/ your PD plan as above. Or he will soon learn: "if i don't want to sleep someone is going to let me play if i fuss long enough."

After the 1hr is up, if it were me - i would pop him in the car or stroller (if you think he will fall asleep) so he can get a catnap (30-45min). This will help in 3 ways: 1) his body will get used to sleeping in the pm 2) it will keep the cortisol levels down - cortisol will make him feel alert, when he should be tired 3) if he is overtired it will add to night waking and over tiredness.

Just my suggestions.

AndDad · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2005, 22:49:36 pm »

Breaks are typically 15 minutes of books. THen repeat the nap time ritual and back to it. Our break is usually after 40 minutes if he is wound up.

We avoided the other methods of trying to get him to sleep because we thought it would be to "accidental". But I guess we need to lighten up a little. It makes sense to try to get him used to sleeping at that time.

Sigh. another day with no afternoon nap.

AndDad · « **Reply #19 on:** September 13, 2005, 23:43:17 pm »

So he hit his 11 month birthday today and we went for a single nap.

About 1 to 3PM, so a decent 2 hour r so nap. He went right down too. Of course he was exhausted. And 1 or 2 PD at the 45 minute mark.

So hopefully we found his sweet spot!

LindseysMom · « **Reply #20 on:** September 14, 2005, 00:28:18 am »

Good, hopefully this is just what he needs-just one nap and not two. Hope this routine works well for you guys.

Meg's Mom · « **Reply #21 on:** September 14, 2005, 02:18:19 am »

Funny, i was in the car a lot today and was thinking about your wee guy. I was going to recommend 1 nap if he still was fighting the pm nap.

If 1pm is his sweet spot great - those that take the 1 nap usually do so between 11.30 and 1.00, so you are right on target.

Let us know how goes it, as 1 nap is not far away for us.

AndDad · « **Reply #22 on:** September 18, 2005, 18:39:56 pm »

We're still finding the "sweet spot". He seems to float between 2 naps and 1 nap.

I hesitate to call it 2 naps though. It's usually one nap at 9 or 10 in the AM with an unsuccessful PM nap.

DW did say he fell asleep in the PM in the car and it turned into an hour+ nap. It was such a treat to come home and see them both rested and relaxed!

At this point, it's mostly play it by ear.

News:

Author Topic: Concerned/ Confused Dad (Read 4393 times)