how long do you hold your dc for wind-down

[micah'smom]

my 5mo used to go down to sleep totally without my help for bedtimes. a little holding and singing for naps.

well now he's teething, rolling over, and doing all kinds of crazy things. pat/shh becomes a wrestling match so i've been holding him before all sleep times and wondering if i'm letting him get used to being sleepy in my arms.

he's still young tho - is it ok? when do you hold them for a less amt in your arms, and when do you stop holding them at all?

thanks!
selena

[julieb]

I used to panic when I'd put my LO down and he'd start rolling about.  But I quickly figured out it was just his way of getting comfortable now that he's mobile.  I still wind him down for 5 min (lights on), singing, rocking, and what not.  Then we turn off the lights, partially swaddle, rock, and sing a slow song for only 15-30 seconds.  When I held him longer (1-2 min), he'd wake at every transition and have a hard time going back to sleep.  So now I plop him down in the same position I always have, and he wiggles about, then settles down in a spot that pleases him to fall asleep. 

I decided on a routine when he was young that I wouldn't mind carrying out when he was older.  I like singing and rocking to him a LITTLE.   :wink:   I figure as he gets older, the only changes we'll make is he'll walk to and from the crib/rocker instead of me carrying him.  If you want to make some changes though, go for it!  Just do it gradually.  That's how I stopped pat/shush and other things like that and got it down to what I have now.

[micah'smom]

thanks julie!
i love your ds' name.
well tonight i did just that - let him roll and try to get comfortable. he did his usual moaning thing for about 20mins and rolled around the crib. but he got stuck in one corner where he'd have to roll over his left shoulder - which he can't do    so i ended up holding him again.

is it ok to pat until he falls asleep? that's what i've been doing but maybe i should stop earlier. how did you phase out pat shush altogether?

thanks again!
selena

[julieb]

Thanks!      I've always liked the name Micah as well, but I'm not a nickname person and would be paranoid/annoyed if people tried to shorten it to Mike.  I've already run across a couple who try to call DS just Ash.   :roll:

How long do you pat and where (in arms, crib, etc)?  Do you have any problems with short naps?  If he wakes mid nap, can he go back to sleep himself or do you end up patting again?  If it's no, and you don't mind the patting, then hopefully it won't turn into an issue (and consider yourself lucky).

But my guess is it will become a problem eventually.  You can't hold him forever.  So if you currently pat the entire time until he's asleep, try cutting it back by a couple minutes gradually.  And/or start patting him in the crib for part of the time at the end.  If he handles it okay, keep cutting down the minutes gradually until you're basically just placing your hand on his back for a few moments (then you can give that up).

And as he gets more mobile, he's gonna end up moving around that crib (and getting stuck) whether you're there or not.  Might as well let him get used to it and figure it out now.  If he gets stuck or frustrated and calls for you, go help, but if he wants to roll around for 20 minutes, you're just gonna have to eventually let him.

This won't be the first or last time he's practicing his new skills in bed and gets stuck.   :roll:  Then there's rolling onto his belly and can't get back, getting into a crawl position, pulling up on the side of the crib, etc.   :wink:   But he'll get the hang of things, start to settle down on his own, and you won't need to rescue him so much anymore (especially if he's not dependent on your patting to help him get to sleep).   

HTH!

[Onewoman]

HI  I had the same thing happening (and panicked as well!) and I have discovered that it's better to just leave them to sort it out themselves. I just make sure she is warm in a sleepsuit, so she can go to sleep without any covers. If she gets stuck, I go and help, but leave her again. When she's asleep and I go to cover her up, she can be in any number of postitions, horizontal, on her tummy, cuddling her blanket! It's quite funny to see how she ends up  :lol:

When I was trying to keep rolling her back onto her back, holding her still and doing shh/pat she would take ages to settle down, like an hour or more, when it used to be just a few minutes. I think I was actually inhibiting her ability to settle down herself and just frustrating her, because I thought she couldn't do it on her own.

HTH

[micah'smom]

julie,

yup dh and i always make sure to say his name is "miCAH". 

last night i left him alone like you said and he was doing a rolling derby. he fussed a while and babbled and almost fell asleep, but i think he was really warm (tummy sleeper) and he's teething so he ended up crying out. i pu and pd once and patted until he fell asleep.

naps are much tougher though and if i leave him alone he rolls and works himself into a frenzy (very spirited). that's why i hold for a long time. guess i should stop that  :shock:

susana, i guess i'm where you were before, i'm afraid he won't do it himself b/c i'm afraid of letting him cry. how long is it ok to let him fuss and figure it out before you know you have to intervene? also ds knows how to roll both ways but when he gets onto his back at night i think he's too tired to try so he cries out right away. how long should i leave him to figure things out? this has been going on for a month so i'm VERY tempted to cio a little.

thanks again for your support! i can tell i'll be chasing this little guy around a lot. 

[micah'smom]

oh yeah and short naps have ALWAYS been a problem so i try to pat. these days he's been ok extending on his own. whoo hoo!

[julieb]

Selena, I think it's time to try some PU/PD then.  Read up on the sections in the new book well before you start.  And remember, the key is to put them back down the SECOND they stop.

On the crying, there's a difference between fussing, mantra crying, and really crying.  My LO will fuss on and off, mantra cry, etc for quite a while, then fall asleep.  He knows the moment he starts howling, I come running.  I wait for the continuous wah, wah, waaaaahhh.  The others start and stop, if I go in and try to help him then, he'll just go right back to playing.  It's like he wasn't ready or serious about getting down to business.  Once he starts howling, I go in and resettle him, and he often goes right to sleep.

Try some experiementing with your LO, listen, and see if you can figure out the differences in the cries (and when interceeding best helps him).

[micah'smom]

thanks julie. i was afraid you'd advise pu/pd 

my whole thing is, is it ok to use pu/pd to train him to sleep on his back? b.c that's when he gets really agitated. if he's on his tummy he'll fall asleep eventually but it's just the rolling and getting onto his back that makes him do the real crying. so when he does that, pu and pd onto his back, or back onto his tummy?

i was just hoping to ride out this developmental phase but it's been over a month.

[julieb]

PU/PD isn't that bad.  You can do it cold turkey, or try to wean down some of your props first (like the patting), then resort to the PU/PD.

Not sure if I understood the tummy/back thing.  You said he's a tummy sleeper, right?  Do you put him down on his tummy first?  Do you want him to continue to be a tummy sleeper?  Can he roll onto his tummy easily?  Even if you put him down on his back, he'll prolly roll to his tummy on his own if he prefers it.

What's your CURRENT nap routine (what do you do and how long?)?  I can suggest better pointers with PU/PD if I know what you're already doing.

[micah'smom]

thanks julie, here's our current nap routine -

-A time for about 2hrs, watch for his sleepy cues
-carry him into the room, close the blinds, stand next to his crib
-say "time to sleep micah" over and over, then shush and pat, sometimes sing a lullaby
- i always lay him in the crib on his tummy
so that all takes about 5-10 minutes. do you think that's too short? considering he's a spirited fella...

he almost always pulls his knees up under his tummy and kicks over until he's on his back. he can roll onto his tummy one way - over his right shoulder - but not over his left shoulder. also he's just learning it so it takes a lot of effort for him. so sometimes he'll refuse to roll at all, sometimes he will roll but roll again onto his back so he's stuck in a corner. so that's when i pick him up and put him back down on his tummy again (not on his back where i found him). so that's my main question - do i keep putting him back on tummy or try getting him used to sleeping on his back? sometimes he seems fine on tummy, sometimes it seems like he wants to get in a different position but once he's there he can't fall asleep!

OH forgot to mention that sometimes i use a paci as a last resort while he's on his tummy and he calms right away, then i take the paci out when the sucking slows down. i guess i'm doing a lot of things to confuse him.

sorry if this was confusing, dh has a cold so i'm taking care of two men in the house 
thanks again so much julie, i've been dying for some specific advice for a while.
selena

[julieb]

At what point do you put him in the crib now?  When he has his eyes closed and "asleep"?
Do you continue to to pat once he's in the crib?

Assuming you're patting until he's "asleep," you really don't have a wind down.  You're just putting him to sleep.  And as a spirited baby, he prolly needs a wind down routine before you put him to sleep.

So this is what I would try:
When you see the tired cues, head to his room and do something mellow in there.  Sit in a chair, on the floor, rock...talk or sing songs, play with his feet and hands a little.  Try 5 minutes (spirited may need more, but mine needs 5 minutes and he's got a good splash of spirited in him).  The key is to get him more mellow and quiet, a transition from play time, and not bouncing off the walls (but I must note, sometimes mine bounces like a wild man all through the wind down, but once he's in his crib, he gets down to business -- it's so weird).  During this time, you can use your verbal cues as well, "Time to sleep Micah."
Then start your sleep routine, close blinds, shush/pat, place in crib, etc, and out you go.

If he starts to yell for you, go in, turn him over, and try to resettle however you do it (without picking up), even if it's a little singing.  But stop when it seems he's settled down so he can finish going to sleep himself.  If he protests (meaning real crying, not fussing), PU.  The SECOND he stops, put him right back down (on tummy is fine).  If he flips over and starts crying again, try to resettle again in the crib.  If it's not working, PU again.  Repeat, etc.  If he's in your arms and starts to arch back or push out, just put him right down.  He may be trying to create his own space so he can settle himself (mine does this).  If he's still crying, try to resettle in the crib, but if that doesn't work, go ahead and PU again.  If he doesn't stop crying in your arms after a minute or two, PD anyway.  Try to resettle, if not, PU again.  If he ever starts to cry on his way back down, PD anyway (but you can PU again once he hits the mattress and you've taken your hands away).  This could take 20 minutes (or more).  Mine usually let me PD without protesting within 5-6 PU/PD.

I would do this every time he's been rolling around and yells for you or if you're trying to extend a short nap.

I don't think the paci is bad since you're not letting him keep it, it's just to calm down.  If you feel like his cries are just escalating and getting frantic (as opposed to turning into mantra cries and loosing steam), go ahead and use it to calm him down.

The goals are to 1. introduce an actual wind down period and 2. get him used to going to sleep himself (regardless of his position) using PU/PD.  Once you've been doing these for a few days to a week, try cutting down the patting time you do next to crib, putting him down more and more awake.  I only hold mine for 20-30 seconds (before his eyes close!).  It ends up being more of a sleep cue than it is me putting him to sleep.  KWIM?

Once he becomes more mobile, it gets easier because he knows how to get himself back into his favorite position.  Mine still gets disoriented and stuck though -- it's gonna happen.  :roll:   Give him lots of practice during his A time too!  It'll also help tucker him out so he might start taking longer naps.

And when doing PU/PD, do it no longer than 40 minutes straight (take out of room for a little bit, 20 min or so, then start over again) or until next cycle time.  When I'm trying to extend a nap, I only try until he's been in the crib for 1.5 hours or so, then I just get him up and start the next cycle, putting him to bed early if I need to.

Hope that gives you some ideas to try!

[micah'smom]

wow julie,

thanks SO so much. i'm so grateful for all the details, i think this will help us out a lot!

i've been putting him in his crib before he's sleeping, his eyes are always open, but sometimes he's so tired he falls asleep almost right away. yes. i do pat while he's still in the crib. sometimes i just lay my hand there.

i like your idea of a "pre-wind down" wind down. i think that'll help him a lot - i think the more overtired he is the more he rolls around.

- so if he's still awake after 40 minutes, we take a break and try again; if it goes into his next feed cycle, then do i put him down to sleep right after that?
- if i pd and he's just fussing, not real crying, i don't pat or touch him at all?
- i've usually been trying to "block" his roll when he's really agitated. should i stop doing that and let him roll and pupd from there? if he rolls and he's cooing should i leave the room until he cries?
- when i use the paci for naps (never for bedtime) he calms RIGHT away. does this mean he's dependent on it (tho he doesn't fall asleep with it)?
- when he wakes in the middle of the night crying, should i wait for him to resettle on his own, or pu/pd right away?
- how long will this take to work? 

i'm so grateful for your advice. i'll let you know how it goes!

[julieb]

No problem, I've been in your shoes!  I'm happy to help someone else as these boards have helped me so much!

- so if he's still awake after 40 minutes, we take a break and try again; if it goes into his next feed cycle, then do i put him down to sleep right after that?

40 minutes of the continuous PU/PD & crying.  If you're leaving his room on and off, I usually give it a good run all the way through nap time (1.5 hours).  Once he hits his next feed cycle or appears to be hungry, feed him and see how he is.  You may have to put him down again quickly or may be able to keep him up a bit.  Your schedule will be wacky the rest of the day, but you'll just have to roll with it until you get a good groove going in a couple days.  Sometimes if I can just get Asher to sleep for 45 minutes, I can get him back on track for the rest of the day (and/or move bedtime up 30 minutes).

- if i pd and he's just fussing, not real crying, i don't pat or touch him at all?

Use your judgement or experiment.  If I leave while he's fussing, he usually starts crying again so I go back and do PU/PD.  But if I stay there and he fusses, I still try to settle him on his side (he's a side sleeper) and then leave when he pops in his thumb (usually fairly quick).  Doing PU/PD while he's fussing will most likely not help, but will make things harder for him.  You could just stand there with a hand on him and see if he quiets down.

- i've usually been trying to "block" his roll when he's really agitated. should i stop doing that and let him roll and pupd from there? if he rolls and he's cooing should i leave the room until he cries?

Depends on what you think is working.  I can't block mine or he gets MORE upset.  So I let him roll and just roll him back (that's the PD part).  If he's happy and rolling, just let him be until he calls for you.  He may fall asleep or he may call when he's ready to get down to business.

- when i use the paci for naps (never for bedtime) he calms RIGHT away. does this mean he's dependent on it (tho he doesn't fall asleep with it)?

No, it's just a calming agent, like a lovie, shushing, singing, etc.  It's only a prop if he needs it in his mouth in order to fall asleep or keep sleeping (I weaned Asher at 11 weeks because it had become a HUGE prop).

- when he wakes in the middle of the night crying, should i wait for him to resettle on his own, or pu/pd right away?

Depends if you think he's randomly crying in his sleep or what.  Mine cries on a regular basis during transitions, but he's actually asleep.  He stops after about 10 seconds.  If he goes on or if it escalates, I go in and try to resettle (or PU/PD if needed).  Usually he's just misplaced his lovie or stuck in a corner of the crib (and too groggy to roll away  :roll: ).

- how long will this take to work? 

So hard to say!  A lot depends on how diligent you are!  Could be 3 days for the rolling part?  Could be longer to wean him off the patting during your sleep routine.  Once you start, make up your mind to stick with it a good few days in order to determine it's success, then make changes if needed.  Try not to flip flop between new and old methods, it will just confuse him.  Remember what the book says, he's going to protest, "This is not the way we go to sleep" at first, but you are teaching him a new way to go to sleep.

Good luck to you and Micah! 

[micah'smom]

hi julie, and anyone else reading this,

well, i was a little chicken to do all out pu/pd after reading some posts on the pu.pd board ("he just keeps screaming!" "I'm sick of this!" "not working!" etc etc lol )

BUT i must tell you, sleep times are much better these days! i think the thing was doing a longer wind-down since he was overtired and so that's the reason it was hard to get him to sleep. so i would have really low-key activity, hold him on my lap and do a slow leg massage or just talk to him, then go into my wind-down. i'm only holding him for about 2-3 minutes instead of 5 mins.

for nap times he still sometimes pops his head back up to see what's new in the world. so i pat a little, then leave. he plays/fusses/tries to soothe, and when he all out cries i go back in, pat, leave. when he needs it, i pu/pd. the first time he got hysterical so i gave him the paci. the next several times it took only a few pu/pd attempts. we're still working on naps but it's getting much better.

as for bedtimes though, much better! I just do our winddown, plop him down, and leave. he totally settles on his own! these days his nightwakings are less b.c i think he just learned to stop rolling. but last night i checked on him and he was on his back, so i guess he learned to sleep on his back! hooray!

i also figured out that feeding him solids probably gave his tummy a hard time at night, so i'm trying to cut down on solids or feed earlier, or not at all....

thanks SO MUCH julie for your help, having things laid out really gave me confidence to do this. we're not totally in the clear yet but there's hope!!

[julieb]

       It's so nice to see the light at the end of the tunnel, isn't it?   :lol:

Glad to have helped and glad things are going better for you!  It's great to hear!!  Keep up the good work!