Matthews Mummy or Anyone re 5 month old

[Little Bear's Mum]

Jane, you seem to have some sensible advice so pleae help. Or anyone else for that matter. LOL

I'm having night waking issues, but I think it impacts on day naps. My ds is going to be 5 months on Sunday and is usually going to bed at 6.30pm, d/f about 9.30 or 10pm then wakes about 4am for a feed. Or may make it until 5am. I've posted a question on night wakings about what to do about the 5am wake up, but I wonder about your thoughts on what time should he be going to bed. And how to get a proper EASY routine working.

We've actually tried 6pm for the last 2 nights and it's been a DISASTER. More night wakings.

Should we try later, perhaps 7pm? I would love to have my boy consistent on his nap times, but as he wakes at different times every morning this just gets totally mucked up. And to top it off, if he feeds at 4amish it totally mucks up any idea of EAS, and usually ends up AES.

He's awake fo 1.75 at a time (I'm trying 2h today, but just had to feed to sleep as overtired).

Normally his naps are 1 hour, 2 hour (or 1.75), 1 hour. The first nap ends up being at about 7am, when most other babies seem to be getting up! But every day is different as to how long he sleeps subject to when he wakes up.

Please help, what do I do?

[Little Bear's Mum]

Oh dear, I've just re-read my post now that I've had a day of more dramas and lots of coffees, and realised how unclear my questions were.

I guess what I'm trying to say is:

My ds is inconsistent at night as to when he wakes and feeds. He goes to sleep at around 6.30pm, and is b/fed immediately before. Sometimes he falls asleep on me, sometimes he's awake when he goes down. Mostly he's very drowsy and only flitters his eyes open a little while I wrap him.
He is d/f around 9.30 - 10pm and wakes himself to feed about 4am. However he usually wakes between 5-6am and seems to want to start his day, is wide eyed and smiling. If I leave him talking in his cot at 5am, he'll be happy until about 5.45am then cries to get up. But he doesn't want b/feeding as he fed at 4amish.

Then by about 6.45-7am he's tired and grumpy for bed. So he goes down for about an hour (sometimes as long as two). For some reason, it frequently works out that he's due for a feed after he's gone down for a nap, so cries unless I get him up and feed him before he naps. I try to have him on a 4 hour EASY and he can last that if that naps work out right.

So, how do I sort out the routine when the mornings are so inconsistent due to his night feeds. I'm sure this is why his day naps are also inconsistent.

I strongly believe that routine is great, and also that body clocks can improve his routine, so how do I achieve what I've been striving for for nearly 5 months now?

I hope this is now clearer and someone can help me. Thank you.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello, I think you are probably right about the daytime being disturbed by the nightime disruption.  Is your lo exclusively bf, or does he also have bottles?

What I would try is to put him to bed slightly later, maybe 7pm, and then do the df slightly later also, maybe 11-11.30pm. This is what we do, and lo doesn't usually wake until about 7.30am.  Also, the df is a bottle, not boob, and I think this helps him sleep longer. If you feel comfortable with giving him a bottle, you could try formula or EBM. The bottle isn't absolutely necessary, but it gives me the confidence to be able to sssh/pat him back to sleep if he wakes any time before 7.30am, and to know I'm not starving him!

A good tip I once heard (I can't remember where  :roll: ) is to treat the hours between 7pm and 7am as nightime. This means keep the room dark, minimise talking and eye contact (with ds, not everybody else!) and, unless doing a df, be gentle but firm that this is sleepy time.

HTH
Post again if you have any questions about what I've said
Caroline

[Aarismom]

Maybe a couple of things to try:

1. Start with Caroline's suggestion

2. Modify Caroline's suggestion a little bit...keep the same bedtime, but move the dreamfeeding up.

3. Get him up earlier for his bf at night, keep the same df. You said he seems to want to eat at around 4, try getting him up a little earlier, say 2:30 or 3 and see if he's hungry enough to eat a full meal. Then put him back to bed and see if he sleeps through until the normal time.

4. Try soothing him back to sleep and feeding him a little later (between 5 and 6). This may not work; sounds like he still needs 2 feedings at night before starting the day.

5. Try putting him to bed even earlier, like 5:30 or 6, for a few nights. He'll be more rested on the evening side, it might just make him sleep a little later on the morning side. Then move his bedtime back up. Again, this might not work, since your lo IS getting at least 10 hours of sleep a night, but it might even make him sleep 12. I'd use this as an absolute last resort. I did this when my lo started waking between 5 and 6, and she surprised us by sleeping until 6:30 or 7 for a total of 12.5-13 hours. Mine doesn't take any feedings at night however, although the same principle still applies. He could go back to sleep until 6:30 or 7.

These are just some different ideas; try what you're comfortable trying. How is he sleeping during naps? Pretty well? This might also affect his early waking. His day is being thrown off by an earlier nap time each nap.

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[Little Bear's Mum]

THanks for your ideas. I hadn't thought about a later d/f helping. To be honest I've tried a few different times, but not been consistent with one. I find I want to feed him before I go to sleep and waiting until 11 or 11.30 would mean I go to sleep then wake up. But if it means I don't have to wake at 4am this would be great.

Last night he slept from 7pm until 4am. No D/F. He'd been awake from 2.15pm all afternoon, so possibly just tuckered out. THen he went back to sleep until around 7am. Yay, he also actually fed at 7.20am. I'm going to try this again for a few days, without the d/f unless he wakes for it, as this messy night thing all started when I tried d/f about 6 weeks ago.

I exclusively breastfeed and unfortunately he doesn't take a bottle, so that makes it a little tricky.

I like all your ideas though, and if the no d/f system doesn't work, then I'll try a later feed or even the waking for feeding at 2.30am (ish).

Thank you so much.

[Matthew's Mommy]

Hi I'm here!!

You got lots of great advice.. and I agree with all of it.  I think we need to look at shifting his body clock, towards a 7 pm bedtime and a wake up time of anywhere between 6 am to 7 am.

So what does his day look like already.. could you give me a quick day run down. 

Also, I'll send you a pm about early wakings.

I'll check back..

[Little Bear's Mum]

Hi again

Well we've had 2 good nights now, although still a little messy in the mornings. The last 2 nights ds has gone to bed at 7pm, I haven't done the dream feed and the first night he went until 4am, then back to sleep until about 7am, then last night/thismorning he slept until 5.10am! Yay! I fed him only one side then and put him back to bed. He slept until 6.40am. I went in and unwrapped his arms and gave him a toy and I went back to bed until 7am. Just so he had some awake time in his cot. I'm working towards having him unwrapped so this will help I think when he does wake a bit earlier being able to move his arms around. He wasn't very hungry at 7am as you can imagine as it had only been 2 hours since he ate, but from 7-8am I offered it to him 3 times and he took some each time. Probably about the amount of a normal (not famished) feed.

Today's day will probably be something like this:

E 5.10am
S 5.30am
A 6.40am
E 7.10am
A 7.13am (sitting in highchair watching me have breakfast)
E 7.30am
A 7.33am (exersaucer)
E 7.55am
A 7.57am (reading stories, walk around house, songs - wind down)
S 8.15am (put in cot, wouldn't settle -pooped his nappy, possibly now overtired. This is where I am in my day now)

Hopefully it will continue as follows:

S 8.45am
A 9.45am - jolly jumper, floor time,
E 10.45am
A     watching me do house stuff, stories
S 11.30am
A 1.00pm  visiting neighbours, floor time, exersaucer stories
E 2.15pm
A
S 2.30pm    try for nap but may not happen usually only 30mins - 1hour max at this time
A 3.00pm Walk in buggy (especially if hadn't taken a nap, will sleep if I keep moving and for about 15mins once I stop), Baby Mozart video, floor time, more cuddles than usual as tired and grizzly
E 5.30pm
Bath 6.15pm
E 6.40
S 7.00pm

As you can see it's not very consistent. Because ds takes shortish naps, not big long 2 hour ones which would make things 'work'.  Usually 1h in the  morning and 30 m - 1h in the  afternoon, with the middle of the day about 1h 30 - 1h45m, and he's only awake 1h 45m a 4 hour EASY just doesn't work out. Especially due to his early morning feed. And it seems he only lasts maximum 1h 30m up once he wakes for the day. The next wake time he can do 1h 45, then the next is usually about 1h to 1h 30m if we want to be able to get him to take another nap. It's just so messy.

I kept logs for about 2 weeks and he averaged 3 1/2 - 4 hours of naps during the day from between 6am - 6.30pm, and would sleep about  10 1/2 hours at night.

I just wish I could get him more consistent, and I know it would work out much better once he sleeps through completely IE not having the early feed.

I had tried implementing the DF hoping to eliminate the 4-5am feed time, but it didn't work. He's ended up doing both if not waking more often. So the last 2 nights without out, he's managed to sleep much better. I'm thinking it may be partly due to exhaustion as he'll be awake from about 2pmish until 7pm with only a 30 min catnap. But at the moment, if that helps train his body to sleep through this might be a good thing. If I do put him in his cot he screams and nothing will settle him, he's happy when we get him up and continues playing. Sometimes he's grizzly though.

I've read your PM and I agree with what you say about the naps during the day effecting night time. I'm just wondering whether it's the problem here, or if it's just the way things have to be until he can sleep longer.

My concern about waking him at 2amish for a feed is that it may start a habit I will then have to break. At least like thismorning he made it until 5am. I'm hoping this may extend naturally.

When he wakes up sometimes in the early hours he'll talk away, and I don't know if I'm better to go to him then and feed so he goes back to sleep straight away, or leave him until he cries. This can take up to 45mins of him talking before crying.

Do you have any other ideas that may help, or am I doing everything already that I can.

Thanks for your help and for the PM. I'll re-read it and see if there's anything else I can get that may help also.

[Matthew's Mommy]

The best way to decrease night wakings is to make sure he is falling asleep independently in his bed. So if he is falling asleep on the breast or bottle (or starting to fall asleep) then you need to wake him up.  I went through this with Brendan, and it contributed to a lot of nightwakings, as soon as we eliminated it, our nightwakings stopped (and our early morning wakings ceased).

If he wakes up at night, and is chatting, then just leave him.  Then if he gets upset, then help him settle down.  If he wakes up crying, give him a wee bit to see if he will self settle, if he doesn't then go to him and help him settle down.  The key is knowing when to intervene and when to hold back.

Hang in there, the days and nights will work out. It just takes time and patience!

[Little Bear's Mum]

Thanks. I have wondered whether it was to do with falling asleep while feeding. He closes his eyes but keeps sucking fairly constantly. At this stage should I make sure he opens them? He usually opens them when I put him in his bed, but is this not enough?

I tried holding his arms and legs down for this morning's nap. But even doing that at 1 hour he opened his eyes, was happy and awake.

Does this mean that's all he needs? Oh no, he's just started crying after only being down and an for his middle of the day nap. Normally this is a bit longer. I did keep him up 1h 55 mins though, could the slightly longer awake time contribute to his waking after one hour? Do I keep having him up that little bit longer even if his nap is one hour, or do I revert back to 1h 45m awake time when he normally does 1h 30m sleep?

Sorry for all the questions, but you've got such good advice!

[Little Bear's Mum]

Just put him down for the night. Tried desperately to keep him awake but he kept closing his eyes. I'd take him off and sit him up and his eyes stayed nearly closed. His eyes flittered open when I put him down and he murmered a little. I'm guessing that's not considered awake enough. Thing is if I feed him in his room and it's darker than bright lights, he's tired so this is what happens.

How long should he be awake between naps, and if he's having a one hour nap is this long enough if he wakes up happy? He's averaging about 3-4 hours total in napping during the day. So is this long enough to enable a good sleep at night? DS is 5 months old.

Thank you for your help.