a spirited schedule w/dreamfeed?

[Joey'sMom]

So many of you have been an enormous help to me getting my ds on track.  He is extremely touchy/spirited, along with colic/reflux.  :roll:  For awhile I thought I was the cursed Mommy, but I have basically gotten things under control.

HOWEVER.

Joey hates napping.  I've pretty much accepted that with the reflux and his personality, I have to let him nap wherever he is comfortable, and accept it if he won't nap.  I don't know if that goes against everything BW, but as long as he's happy and his feeds/activity time are pretty routine, I'm happy.

That being said, I still find trouble with evening, because it's that stretch between like 5 and 8 where he doesn't want to nap, and I don't really want him to, because it's almost bed time, but then he screams bloody murder. 

Next, the dreamfeed.  I gave it up until now, because he is 3 months and that was recommended.  I tried it last night, and it worked, he actually latched on and ate.  We did it at 10:30.  But then he woke at 12:30!  And then every hour after that until 7:30 this morning!! 

So my questions:Any suggestions for a completely touchy/spirited LO who roughs it up for 3 hours before bed and doesn't seem to get the dreamfeed??

[Deb_in_oz]

Hi Joey's mom.

the dreamfeed is actually recommended until bub is closer to 7-8 months old and well established on solids.

i think that Joey most likely woke so much due to being overtired before bed.  that is a typical reaction to having a rough afternoon - they can't sleep deeply because they were very overtired when they finally went down.

i would recommend trying to get him napping regularly (it does not have to 2 hr naps!) he needs to nap in every EASY cycle though.  can you post what his current day looks like - the key being his awake times (at what point are you trying to put him down for naps??)

with spiriuted babies they tend not to be able to handle as long awake times as angel/textbook babies.  so whereas they might stay up for 1 1/2 hrs at this age - a spirited one would do better with 45 min - 1 hr at this age.

for the dream feed i woudl reinstate it and stick with it for a week or so and see what happens.  the combination of regular napping and the DF might help him out.  the key though is really the napping.  post back with your routine and we can work on it a bit if you'd like.  you CAN get a spirited one to nap regularly (i finally accepted that Olivia will not nap fro long, but she did nap every cycle once i started putting her down early)

here is a link to the spirited support group as well - in it there is a lot of advice and i have outlined my specific case as well. i suggest you have a read through at loeast the first few pages.

http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/support-group-for-moms-of-spirited-babies-vt40851.html

[Joey'sMom]

Ok, here is a general look at Joey's day:

7:30-8 wake, bf

9:00 nap (at least for 40 min)

10:30-11 bf

11:30 nap/outing (he sleeps in his carseat)

1:30-2:30 fruit/cereal/bf

2:30-3 catnap.  He's really in and out of sleep here, and tends to fuss every 10-15 minutes or so.

4:30-5:30 bf

Then here is our problem area, so I usually take him to the store or for a visit just to keep him busy or (with any luck) have an eager friend hold him for a bit.

7:30-8 fruit/cereal/bf
Massage/Wind-down
Bed

12:30-1:30 AM bf

3:30-4:30 AM bf

[Deb_in_oz]

ok - i have a few more questions and then i think we can work on this some more

1) when he goes down for his naps (which look to be afetr an awake time of  1- 1/2 hrs) does he go down easily (maybe alittle fuss, but needs no intervention from you, asleep within 20 min) or does he cry a lot and get extremely fussy / upset

2) when he wakes from nap (for example at 40 min like you stated in your sample day) what happens?  does he cry out?  or do you hear him stir and then go in to try to help him sleep more??  have you tried pat/shh to extend this at all?

3) is he on fruit and cereal at 3 mo due to his reflux?? or another reason? how long has he been having 2 meals and what quantiies of food is it you are giving him?

4) where is that 3rd "catnap" taking place - at home in his room?

when i hear back i will write a full response - definitely have some ideas but want to find this out first.

[Joey'sMom]

1)  His awake time is never more than 1 hr -15, and I've gotten very good at reading his cues.  He turns his head from side to side, opens his eyes wide, and fusses.  When I put him in in the morning, he puts himself right to sleep.  The rest of the day he fights it: won't let his eyes close, becomes agitated (squirms and cries), and basically gets himself worked into a full-out cry.  Many times I have to have him nap in his swing/seat because of the reflux, and he starts holding his breath before his little butt even touches the seat.

2)  In the beginning, for about a month, when he'd wake I'd hear him fuss/stir and I'd run in, retrieve his binky (he's found his fingers now), and do shh/pat and rub his forehead.  It works for about 1.5 minutes and then he's awake again, and this continues until he's full-out awake and ticked off.  Now, I let him fuss a minute (sometimes he can put himself back to sleep and I seem to be a disturbance) and then I go in, try a variation of sh/pat (he doesn't much like the patting so I rub his belly), and if he isn't calming I just take him out and give him a little extra activity.

3)  He is on solids because of his reflux.  He just can't hold down milk on its own, so the doctors recommended I try cereal, and then a bit of fruit mixed in with it.  For both of these meals he has about 2 tablespoons of cereal with about 1/3 of a jar of baby fruit, and then I water it down a bit so it's not as thick or sugary. He gobbles this up, and then I give him some milk (about 10 minutes of BF).  The napping has actually improved with this, and it does help him keep everything down.

4)  The "catnap" is not in his room.  At this point in the day, if I even walk past his room he cries (this is not my imagination!).  In fact, he's pretty much against being put down at all and the only thing I can do to settle him is go out for awhile.  It had been working to just sit outside, but now it's too cold so I actually take him in the car.  Not every day, but on days when there's just nothing else I can do.  I would have called it his colicky time of day, but now I see he's just tired and fighting the nap.

[Deb_in_oz]

OK - i really think you need to cut back his awake time a little bit - try winding him down from about 50-55min from each wake up and aim to have him in bed by 1hr from waking up.  just see what the change is for the next 3 days and see if he sleeps better. I really found in our case at 3mo by the time i saw the "signs" it was too late - once i started pre-empting it and putting her down earlier she started to nap easily in every cycle (the length still varied every cycle every single day, but she immediately started going down without a fuss and giving me at least 1 long nap a day. and that was simply form putting her down at 45 min at 7 weeks and then 1hr at closer to 3 mo.  we stayed at 1 hr until she was 4 months)

this seems to be the case even more so in the late afetrnoon.  he needs that last nap - at 3 mo and spirited with no long naps i am pretty sure it is this 3 hr stretch that is setting him up for a bad night's sleep. I understand the crying at the sight of his room - olivia does it as we walk down the hall to her room - but now that she is on 2 naps i find i have to push her a bit to get the naps at the toimes that will get us to dinner half way sane. i do know that this is definitely extreme tiredness and showing that he defiitely needs you to put him down earlier for the naps.  better to put him down too early than too late - at least until you figure out what his magic awake time is...i would start putting him down for catnap in his room - just do it earlier.

if he wakes early from the catnap or does not take one at all and there is going to be a big gap until bedtime i would 1) offer the solids and BF much earlier (maybe 6pm) and 2) move bedtime up a little bit.(maybe 7) until he is nappoing regularly you are not going to help yourself or him at all by keeping him up later - the more overtired he is the owrse he will sleep at night and it sets you up for the next day.  you might find if you put him down earlier and less o'tired that he does better and sleeps longer!

i think the key really is the awake time - if you try it for a few days let me know how he reacts / the results.  i hope some of this helps. i know how hard it is with a spirited sleeper and i am sure the reflux makes it that much harder.

[Joey'sMom]

Deb,

I haven't been able to really check back here for a couple of days, but thank you so much for your feedback.  I think that you're right, that I shouldn't wait for his cues, but just put him in.  I tried it this morning, and he went right to sleep, woke at 40 minutes, and I let him  talk for a minute, went in a gave him his binky, and now he's sleeping again.  Wait.  I spoke too soon. I'll have to get back to you!

[Deb_in_oz]

remember he has to adjust to the change and also it is great you are giving him the chance to resettle.  he might do some times and might not other times... the key ithing is when he finally gets up is he rested and happy or tired, cranky and crying?

[Joey'sMom]

Well, we've had a hellish weekend. 

Anyway, today we've been doing the earlier bedtime, and it's been weird to say the least.  Joey's up around 10:30/11:30, and then again around 3:30.  This has led me to try a 4 hr schedule today, which he handled well.  His naps are still a nightmare, but I'm doing the best I can.  His reflux has been a bit regressive, if that's possible, but everyone keeps promising we'll be through it soon.

All I can do is hope.  :?

[Deb_in_oz]

has he had his 3 mo growth spurt yet?  those 2 times sound like appropriate GS night feed times.  was he hungry??

i am not sure why you are going to try him on 4 hr routine at 3 mo (Tracy recommends 4 hrs at 4 mo and that is for those babies that are ready at that age) - i really don't think that is your answer IMO.  i think you'l find that most (not all) spiriteds actually take even longer to get to 4 hr routine (closer to 5 mo or longer).

unless he is taking huge naps (which he is not currently doing) and that is how he is stretching to 4 hrs i would think keeping him up extra long + short naps at 3 mo woudl just lead to chronic overtiredness.

personally i think you need to work on the naps and windown and i woudl suggest you contact the nap moderators directly and see if they have some extra advice. I am happy to keep working with you though so let me know what things you have been doing during the day to work on the issues we discussed.  good luck.

[Deb_in_oz]

how are things going??

[Joey'sMom]

Actually, things have been not so bad.  I moved up his bed time like you suggested, and that HAS made his napping more successful.  He still fights it, but for the last few days has had at least one 2 hr nap, and yesterday he had 2. 

The 4 hour schedule works pretty well, but there have been a few times when I fed him at 3.5 hours. I think it might be because of the solids that he's able to handle it still being so little.