Am I a prop?

[momo'nathan]

My 8 month old wakes usually 3-4 times each night between 7:30 pm and 7:30 am.  He usually wakes a couple of times in the evening (i.e. 45 minutes after going to sleep, and approx. 10:30) and we have started to pu/pd which he will sometimes settle within a few minutes.  When he wakes in the night however (anytime after 10:30) , I feed him (breastfeed).

Prior to about a month ago he would sleep only by being nursed to sleep but we now have some success (although it seems to depend on the day) with pu/pd in the evening to get him to bed.  Should we be doing pu/pd in the night as well?  I have assumed he really could be hungry because he has always fed so often during the day?

I don't have an EASY routine for my little guy as he seems to be on some other routine of his own that I havn't been able to change.  He nurses every 2 hours in the day and naps approx 30-35 minutes twice a day (used to be nursed to sleep for naps but now having some success with pu/pd for naps). 

I am feeling a little panic-stricken as I read how well others are doing on this message board and wonder what I am doing wrong.  I have to return to work in the new year and wonder if my intention to be a loving nurturing mom have created a baby who can't do anything without his prop-parents?

[momo'nathan]

Well last night was a disaster.  When our little guy woke at 11:20 I decided to try to pu/pd instead of feeding him (which I normally would have done).  After an hour and a half (and too many pu/pd's to count) we finally got him to sleep. 

He then woke at 4:30 (I nursed him) and then 6:30.

When he woke at 6:30 it wasn't a restful wakeup chattering away etc. (it never is), it is was crying and he wanted to nurse but I wouldn't let him.  I instead got up with him.

What are we doing wrong?

[RyansMum]

Hi I am not breastfeeding my little guy but if it was me and he woke at 6.30 for a feed I would feed him even though it had only been 2 hrs.  I can't get my LO to hold on for a feed ever, his crys get louder and louder and my instinct just tells me to make him happy by feeding him.  I have also found that LO is hungrier quicker in the evening than during the day, perhaps that is the same for your LO.

Basically my opinion is go with your instincts, if you can settle him to sleep with the pu/pd than do so but if he is giving you the hungry cry just go with it!  Thats what I would do anyway.

[branwen]

Hi!  I would have to say that by now you are a prop and you're going to have your hands full if you want to change this- just preparing you.  By now his feeding/sleeping habits are pretty ingrained so if you're going to try to change it there will be a lot of tears, esp since so much of this is connected to nursing.  Nursing for him sounds more for comfort than just for food.  I can relate to this as I nursed my dd to sleep for over 4 months and then lost my mind with nursings every hr to 2 hrs with short naps and found BW and changed it, but it took awhile.  Your ds is almost twice her age, so it will probably take you twice as long as me, shorter if you are diligent and don't give in...which is so hard.

How are solids?  How many solid meals does he get?  How many naps?  How many feeds do you have during the day total- more than 6? How long are the day feeds?

When he wakes during the night how long are his feeds- are they a full feed or is it just "suck suck" and back to bed?  Are the wakings always at the same time?

Generally PU/PD is an all around sleep training- so for naps and for nights.

Do you want to get on EASY?  I have some ideas for you but would like to give you the best advice so if you could answer all my questions.

BTW- 1.5 hrs at night for first time PU/PD is how I started out :wink:

[momo'nathan]

Thanks for the reply... and the hard truth about our road ahead!!!

Solids are going pretty well.  He eats 2 meals each day (breakfast at 8:00ish and dinner at 5).  He is now eating cereals, vegetables, fruits, just started on meat, and has cheese usually as a snack each day.  Breakfast is usually cereal and fruit and dinner is cereal, 2 vegetables and 1 fruit. 

Naps - usually 2 a day (sometimes 3 if in the car) and you could set a clock to the length of each nap - 30-35 minutes each

Total feeds during the day - I would say 10 (he often feeds more often in the morning) probably lasting about 10 minutes.

When he wakes during the night he feeds approx. 10-15 minutes with active sucking for the whole time.  As soon as I detect that he is slowing down I take him off the breast and put him back into his crib.

He usually wakes around the same time (usually some time in the 1 o'clock hour and in the 4 o'clock hour) then wakes 6 ish and more or less just wants to suck for comfort (would suck for an hour if I let him).

I am pretty much willing to try anything at this point.  So yes, any help that you can offer will be greatly appreciated with EASY.

[branwen]

Hi again

I have been thinking a lot about your situation I just want to make sure you're getting the best advice so I needed to review some things with Tracy's book.  Do you have it?  The "Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems."  If you don't that is the one to get.  There are stories about mom's in very similiar situations to yours- with older babies just learning independent sleep.  When I first started the process of getting my dd onto a routine and not needing the breast to sleep I read and re-read just to keep myself sane while doing the training.

The good news is that even though getting a baby this age on EASY is harder and all of this routine stuff will be so difficult the pay off in the long term will be worth it.

Those night wakings sound very habitual, and he probably wakes expecting the breast (sounds like he does take a full feed)...and therefore does not eat enough during the day.  He is a snacker so you must teach him to take a full feed during the day- you will do this by doing PU/PD at night and not feeding, around the third night you might see him eating better during the day.  Watch out- his feeds might actually be shorter- I know!- but this happens sometimes when you extend the length of time between feeds, it's like all the sudden they catch on that now is the time to eat and they eat a lot, and suck all the milk at once!  This happened with my dd- her feeds dropped from 30 min to 10 min and we were actually feeding less times per day! Also his naps are so short that he is likely overtired.  It could be that once you extend those naps and teach him to take a full feed during the day he will sleep better at night. 

How is your dh?  Is he on board to help change all this?  He will be invaluable to you at night to change this pattern...simply because he does not have the boob to offer.

Okay, about getting him on EASY- there is an introduction method detailed in the book.  I really recommend getting that because you're going to need to watch the clock in the beginning (later you can flex)...and remember that means that you have to follow the routine too. :wink:

When I first started I spent most of my time at home with my dd so she could get used to the pattern.  I really recommend this to you if it is possible.  I would also recommend all the sleeping be done in the crib and not elsewhere.

Things to expect- LOTS OF CRYING.  From you and your son.  But remember that he is crying because he doesn't understand what you're doing...all of this is different than what he is used to.  He is at the age where he can reach out for you somewhat and that can make things harder.  Just remember- he will not starve!  He is not starving!  I so thought that my dd was hungry every time she cried when the main problem was she was tired and did not know how to go to sleep.

Even through the tears I would just say to myself in my head that this will be better long term.  You must be exhausted if you have been going like this for 8 months.  When my dd finally learned to nap and her daddy could put her to bed I actually got a break.  A happy mommy is a happy baby in my opinion...so you need to take care of yourself, esp with nursing because even while sitting your body is busy working!!!

I would also encourage you to add a lunch with solids.  10 feeds is a lot for this age.

What is your ideal wake time for him and ideal bedtime.  We can devise an EASY timetable for you to try after I get that info.  I would maybe start with a 3.5 hr routine.

Also- you're going to need to use the PU/PD technique for night time and to extend naps.  I'd go to that board and read the survival techniques and success stories.  I'm moderator there so I can help you on that too!

Okay-

1- get book :wink:
2- get dh on board (ideally he would be the one to do the PU/PD at nighttime- at first- it is just easier for you and baby this way)
3- start adding a lunch
4-familiarize with PU/PD for naps and bedtime
5-decide your ideal wake up/bedtime (within reason- my dd was on a 6 to 6 routine for a long time at first)
6- how long can he comfortably play and be awake?

[momo'nathan]

Thank you so much for all of your support to this point.  It is obvious that you have put a lot of thought into this and for that I am very greatful!!

Thankfully, my dh is supportive and on board with what needs to be done.  He has felt somewhat... helpless because he hadn't been able to assist much with getting our lo to sleep before we had started to try pu/pd. 

I do have the "Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems" and will review the book again tonight.   I have to admit that I had spent much of my time on the sleep section and less on the other sections but I will review all sections. 

We have been getting our lo to bed at about 7:30 each night (he has a bath at about 6:45 and then I feed him after his bath).  This time seems to work for him.  Ideally, he would sleep to 7.  Bedtime routine raises a question for us, however.  To date, following dinner we go for a walk then come home for his bath (done by daddy) and then our lo is brought to me to be fed and put to bed.  As hard as we try to keep him awake, he almost always falls asleep while eating (at this time of night) and in fact his eyes close within a couple of minutes of going onto the breast (he continues to actively suck).  I try to talk to him and stroke his head etc. etc. but inevitably he either goes into his crib asleep (99% of the time) or almost asleep and this second state is pretty darn close to sleeping (i.e. not awake, full and calm to settle himself into sleep).  Should we change our bedtime routine so that the breast is not the last step before bed i.e should I feed him and then put him into the bath and the directly into bed?

With regards to his awake and play time it seems that he can be awake for at least 2 1/2 before he seems to need any down time.

I have read some of the information on the pu/pd board but I will go back to it to review the information regarding the technique.  I have a couple of questions that I will post regarding pu/pd that we have found somewhat confusing information on.

I look forward to hearing from you again.  You have been a real lifeline for us!!