Very confused on bedtime. Please help.

[a_astorga]

Hi,

My son is 8.5 months old and seems to be confused with his bedtime schedule. Currently, his sleep schedule is as follows:

Wakes up 5-6 am
Awake time 2.5 hours then first nap for 1.5 hours
Awake time for 3 hours then 2nd nap for 1-1.5 hours
Awake time for 2 hours then 3rd nap for 45m-1 hour
Awake time for 3 hours then bedtime at 8:30-9:00pm

So as you can see, he has no fixed schedule. We just follow his awake times. I tried to cut off the 3rd nap but when he goes to bed around 6:30-7pm, he wakes up 45 mins later, thinking its his 3rd nap.

Then the whole night gets really frustrating. But when we do follow through with the 3 naps, and bedtime at 8:30-9pm, I think that he should sleep-in until 7am, but he still wakes up at 6ish.

So he really only gets 9-9.5hours of sleep each night. Cause he goes to bed too late and wakes too early.

Can anyone help ?? Has anybody gone thru this same situation?
At almost 9 months how are their sleep patters? What is there awake time? Also do you still feed them in the middle of the night? It just seems that we can't get any good sleep since he's up so late and wakes up so early. Plus he still wakes up in the middle of the night to feed about 75% of the time.

Any info would be highly appreciated.
Thanks!

[Aarismom]

I think you're doing the right thing by putting him to bed earlier. If he's waking up at 6 am, that's because his internal clock is telling him it's time to get up. You can change that, but it takes a lot of time and patience. And some just refuse to change. Mine also gets up between 6:30 and 7 most days, but occasionally (like this morning) 6 am. I've found that putting her to bed later just caused more problems, because she got up at the same time anyway.

What is your wind down routine before bed? That is, what gives the signal that it's bedtime? For us, we do a specific routine every night, regardless of the situation. This cues her that it's bedtime, and she sleeps through. What I might suggest is to start his routine earlier and earlier every few nights (maybe by a half hour), until he's going to bed between 6 and 7. Moving it all at once causes problems, especially if he's use to going to bed at 9. It may take a week or two to move it back; that's normal. 

Hope this helps!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[a_astorga]

Hi Sonya,

This new 8-9 pm bedtime only started about 2 weeks ago. And our routine for bedtime is always the same. We give him a dry bath put his jammies on and say good night.

So before he went to bed like at 6-7 pm, but now it's changed.

[dkjokisch]

At 8.5mos, you really should be dropping the catnap.  If your ds has trouble staying awake through that last interval of the day, you can shorten it a little and move bedtime up temporarily.  But, at this age, he should be able to go close to four hours from the second nap to bedtime.

We didn't have too much trouble dropping the nap as dd started fussing at taking it.  However, others have turned it into quiet time, reading a book or just quiet play.

9-9.5 hours of sleep is defintely not enough.  I agree with Sonya that you need to try to move bedtime back little by little.  You said when you put him to bed at 6:30-7pm, he wakes up in 45min - will he resettle for the night after that?

It's also probably time to move toward fixed AM and PM naps.  By fixed, I don't mean the exact same time every day, but within a window.  For example, dd is 9mos.  I still keep track of her awake time and watch for sleepy signs, but also watch the clock as well.  Her AM nap is usually after about 2.5 hours of awake time, but no earlier than 9am and no later than 10am.  We do the same thing for her PM nap - 3 hours of awake time and between 1:30pm and 2:30pm.

Your ds also probably doesn't need to eat at night anymore, though you are the best judge of that.  The fact that he can sleep through some nights would imply hunger is not the issue.  If you are concerned, you can try upping his intake during the day.  However, if the wakings occur at roughly the same times each night, it is more likely habitual.  You can try wake to sleep or resettling without offering breast or bottle.

[a_astorga]

Thanks Deborah,

After he wakes up when we put him down for bedtime, he doesn't seem sleepy at all. So he could be up from 45 mins. to 1.5 hours.

So Im not sure what to do, for example today he woke up at 5 am and woke up at 1:45 pm from his second nap. So should I keep him up for 4 hours and put him down for bedtime around 5:45? then he'll probably wake up before 5 am tomorrow. And it is so hard to keep him awake for more than 2 hours after his ssecond nap. He just gets so grumpy and doesn't want to eat. And how long until he figures out the catnap is gone?

thanks

[dkjokisch]

It took us about two weeks to drop the catnap, though she was teething during that time (her two bottom teeth came through right as I thought the nap was gone for good), so her naps were a little off anyway a few of those days.

This was part of why is became important for us to start that second nap no earlier than 1:30pm.  Any earlier and it was too long between the second nap and bedtime.  And there were definitely nights in the transition (and even occasionally now) that I start her bedtime feed at 6pm because she's simply exhausted.

While doing all this we were also having some short nap problems (still are to a degree), so I worked to extend the PM nap as well.  Ideally, it's best if she sleeps until at least 3pm.  If for some reason she's up earlier, I time her bedtime for 4 hours from the end of her PM nap.

At 8.5mos, he should be able to go longer than 2 hours, especially toward the end of the day.  I would slowly work to increase the awake time there.  We try and do something to distract dd that last hour before bed.  If we stayed in the house, I'm sure she'd be super-cranky, so the three of us have a quick dinner when dh gets home from work, and then we go for a 45-min walk around the neighborhood or go run an errand together.

I also think your bedtime problems and your early AM wakings are related.  If you can fix the bedtime issue, I think it will help in the AM.  However, I know how hard it is to start the day on the right foot when your lo decides to get up at 5am.  for us, we decided that anything prior to 6am constitutes a night waking (which made it easy for me as dh is responsible for dealing with night wakings).  We have had some success with wake-to-sleep for dealing with early AM wakings.  In fact dd has been getting up at 6am the last few days, so dh is going to try wake-to-sleep tomorrow morning to get us back to our normal 7am wake-up.

I hope some of this was helpful.  Keep us posted on how it's going.

[a_astorga]

Thanks a lot,

Can you explain to me how you do wake to sleep and when it should be done and why?

Thanks

Also how many hours does you lo sleep at night?

[Aarismom]

I agree with Deb on all points Start working on dropping the cat nap and work on getting him to bed a little earlier.

That said, wake to sleep is done usually about a half hour before your lo normally wakes at night. You maybe touch him on the forehead, rustle his hair, whatever you can do to get a small reaction out of him, maybe a head turn, movement in position, etc. Then he puts himself back to sleep, starting the sleep cycle over again. Matthew's mommy has a thread at the top of the nap forum to explain exactly how to do it.

My lo is almost 6 months old, and has been sleeping 11-13 hours at night for almost 3 months now. That only happened when we started putting her to bed earlier. Her bedtime is between 6 and 7, and she wakes that time in the am. If she has a bad nap day, we usually put her down a little bit earlier, but no earlier than 5:30. We also use the clock for naps, as her sleepy signs are all over the place. No earlier than 8:30 at this point for her first nap, no earlier than 11:30 for her second nap. Her naps usually occur around 9 and around 12-12:30. But we still have the cat nap, which we plan on dropping when she moves up to 3 hours of waking time between her first and second nap and 2.5-3 for her first. She's at 2.5 or so now.

Hope things get better for you soon!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[dkjokisch]

Wake to sleep can be used to address habitual night wakings (waking at approximately the same time every night but not due to hunger).  There's a full explanation of it on page 191 of the BW Solves All Your Problems book.  Like Sonya said, you go in an hour before they usually wake and stir them gently.  It may or may not work completely the first night, but the book says to do it three nights in a row.

There is also a modified wake to sleep for naps (to help them get past the 45-min mark), and there's a thread on the nap board for that.

Dd sleeps about 12 hours a night, roughly from 7pm to 7am.  We do the same as Sonya and put her down a bit early if she's had a bad nap day, but we try not to do that more than 1 or 2 days in a row as she will start to wake earlier if put her down earlier on a regular basis.

[a_astorga]

So what you guys are saying that at 9 months he should be sleeping about 12 hours a night and about 3 hours a day.

Both his morning and afternoon nap are around 1.5 each and his catnap 30 mins. to an hour.

So for example yesterday I had to wake him up from his catnap at 5 pm since he slept for like 1 hour and 10 mins. He's up at 5 and then I know he will be sleepy at the 3 hour mark. So I put him down like at 8:15 and slept until 6 am, but woke up crying really loudly at 5 am so I gave him a bottle and he only drank 3 oz. Put him back down and started talking until he fell asleep. So of course I couldn't go back to sleep after 5 am. So he does this from time to time but sometimes does seam really hungry and will drink 5 oz. So I thought he was hungry at 5 am since his last meal was at 7 pm but he really wasn't. So why does he wake up? Is this when you use wake to sleep? but he doesn't really do it every day.
And from 8:oo ish pm to 6ish am, is that enough sleep?

Should I just let him catnap and wake him up early like at 5 so I know he will be down at 8? And just wait until he outgrows his catnap?

I would really like to put him down earlier so i can have some time with my husband. But how do I make it so he will wake up at 7 am or at least 6:30 am. It just seems that anything I do doesn't help.

thanks again foe reading and all your help.

[Aarismom]

Ok, I would work on dropping the cat nap. That seems to be part of your problem. At 9 months he should be able to stay up 3 hours or more, getting 2 naps of 1.5 hours each (the second can be 2 hours if he needs it), somewhere around 9 and somewhere around 1-2 pm. Use your own judgement

Also, I would try moving his bedtime back to 7. That should give him enough sleep on the night end of things. If he wakes before 6, leave him be unless he's crying out to you, then re-settle.

If this doesn't work we can try a different strategy, but give it a few days to see if there's any improvement Remember to go with your instinct.

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[a_astorga]

Hi,

So I started today on getting rid of the catnap and just getting 2 naps at approximately at the same time. Today he woke up at 6:20, even though last night he went to sleep like at 8:15. Then today I put him down for his first nap at exactly 9 am. Im hoping he wakes up around 10:30 or more.

However we have also been having some problems with George at bedtime. So he goes to sleep at night (this could be at 6- 7 or but at about 1 hour after he has been asleep, he starts crying really loudly. This doesn't happen exactly every day, it's more like one night yes, next night no, it's like every night in between. So my question is : Is this separation anxiety? Last night was funny cause he didn't want me to comfort him, he wanted his dad, and when his dad left the room he would look for him everywhere. So finally my husband calmed him down and he went back to sleep. What could this be and why is it the he does it some nights and some other night he doesn't.

Is this when I should use wake to sleep? im not sure.

Thanks

[Aarismom]

It could quite possibly be separation anxiety.

What does he do when he wakes? Are his eyes still closed or are they wide open and darting around the room? Does the crying continue over several minutes, or is it a loud cry, then a sort of break, then another one? Are there any tears? Does he stop when you enter the room? When you go to him, what do you do? Do you turn on a light?

The reason I ask is that it could also be a mantra cry. Mine lately has been doing that...she'll let out a loud cry after being asleep for an hour, then break, then do another one, then it ends for the rest of the night. It's really strange. It could last maybe 30 seconds, but she never seems to be awake. There are no tears. It doesn't happen every night, maybe every few nights. She'll even lift her head and seem to look around, but her eyes are closed.

If it is separation anxiety, you could try doing wake to sleep then and see if it works. Or you could observe for a few nights and see if he's really awake (you'll see tears), or if you're doing something to wake him when he's really asleep. I swear, this whole mantra cry business is soo confusing. They really *sound* awake. Often what happens is mom or dad goes into the room when they hear this cry, turn on a bright light or do something to wake them up fully.

At his age though, there's a really good chance it could be separation anxiety. Spend a few nights observing; go in before he normally wakes and see if you can prevent it by gently laying a hand on his back or tummy before he wakes fully (when he stirs). Don't say anything, keep the room dark. That's the naptime version of wake to sleep, but it can certainly work for night sleep.

Hope this helps!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[dkjokisch]

Waking like you describe can also be due to overstimulation and/or overtiredness before bed.  With dd, when I think back over the day, overstimulation is most likely the culprit.  She also does it when recovering from a few days of insufficient napping.

We usually listen for a bit and give her eminute to calm down on her own.  If not, dh will go in and distract her with a diaper change (don't know why, but that usually does it), and tuck her back in.

If he has trouble resettling after these episodes, then you could try wake to sleep (the nap version).  If not, I'd let him be and help him resettle if need be.

[a_astorga]

Well, that mantra cry, whatever that is, he used to do it before, he cried like he was in agony and then stopped and would go back to sleep. But then this loud cry began, he doesn't stop crying, cries really loud, does have tears, sometimes I let him cry at least 3-5 mins. to see if it stops and it just gets louder and louder. I go in his room, his room is pitch black, but Im pretty sure he's awake, then I get him and he doesn't fully stop crying, he cries less but it takes about 1-2 min. to comfort him. And then last nite, he didn't want to be with me, he cried with me and wanted his dad. Which is funny, cause this last week he starts complaining when he sees his dad, so he can pick him up.

[a_astorga]

he cries so hard he has to gasp for air and starts to gag/cough. Its that bad, the diaper change doesn't work. tried it.

Thanks

[dkjokisch]

I wish my dd would cry for dad for a change.  :wink:

[a_astorga]

So what if he has that same loud cry for naps as well?
Is that seperation anxiety as well?

thanks