Having Similar Problem

[sonja's mom]

Hi
I just started reading BW and I am fascinated by it.  I immediately wanted to get my  8wk old daughter on 3hr EASY- she had been doing a 3hr feeding schedule, but she would often fall asleep only at the end of a feeding and would get agitated at some point during activity, which I was using as a distraction after waking if she was not at the 3 hour mark for her feeding.

Now that I am trying to coordinate her routine using EASY, her disposition has definitely improved- she is peacefully wakeful for much longer than she has ever been.  My problem is, even though shh/pat has been working to get her to sleep alone, she will not S long enough after A to get her to the 3 hour mark for E again.  I am not really concerned about the Y at this point.  Assuming that I can be flexible, and seeing my daughter's hunger cues, I would re-feed if only, say, 2.5 hours had elapsed.  The problem is that this keeps happening, she continues to go in 2.5 hour cycles and no, I can't seem to get her to eat more at a feeding to sustain her longer.  The few times I have tried this she got so sleepy during E that her A ended after 5 minutes and she was extremely cranky, so she went straight to S with little resistance.  She's a spirited baby and a big one at that- 12.5 lbs at her 7week checkup and currently taking between 3-4 oz at a feeding.  How can I get her back on 3hr EASY?

[Deb_in_oz]

can you post what her most recent days have been like showing all feeds (time and amount) and nap times (and length). how long is her A time and what are you doing for a wind down (if any)?  what do you do during her A time?

i can relate to your situation and just want to get a better picture before offering any advice.

[sonja's mom]

The past few days have been like this:

E-7am 3-4 oz over 10- 15 minutes, refused more
A-7:15-8:15- starts to get cranky
S-8:30am after 15 or so minutes of wind down (swaddling, shh/pat)
Y-approx 1 hour nap, wakes at 9:30 hungry

Cycle basically repeats again where shewakes hungry again around noon and after a little longer A session she's tired, at which time I spend about 20 minutes winding her down but she has slept soundly at about 2pm and would sleep 2 hours straight.  At 4pm we do it again, she may take a little more in the bottle and by 5:30 she definitely wants to sleep again.  She catnaps until just before 7 when she gets another bottle (4oz), has her bath and then we wind down with the swaddling and shh/pat.  Once down (about 8pm) she will sleep great, dream feed goes perfectly around 11pm although she has been waking to feed at 3 or 4 am (which she was doing before I started EASY when I did not even offer a dream feed, so I am wondering if she really needs it- but that is a seperate issue maybe?).

Today however she got an earlier start and EASY has gone like this so far:
E-6:30
A-6:45-7:30- got very cranky
S-7:50 (it is 8:40am now so I am not sure how long she is going to go...)

Her daytime activities include either swing or bouncer or sitting in my lap for around 30 minutes- dr said avoid laying her flat until 30 minutes after feeding to prevent spit-up.  Then she spends some time on her back which she likes, talking to her and leaving her quiet, looking in the baby mirror, etc.  Also try to do tummy time in the afternoon when she seems better able to stay up longer- but she won't tolerate more than 6-8 minutes.

I hope this is the information you are looking for.  Thanks for responding to me- I really want this to work, it makes so much sense.

[Deb_in_oz]

to be honest i think what you are doing is great - i would not recommend changing anything at this stage - she is a spirited 8 week old who you have napping regularly and for good amounts of time (a major accomplishment with a spirited one so give yourself a huge pat on the back)  as long as she is heading in the right direction i woudl think that you will see her A time improve a little over the next few weeks so you can transition to 3 hrs when it will work for her and change things as she is ready.

i just wrote to someone else with a spirited one - they are often slower to increase A time due to being overstimulated and overtired very easily.  they get to 4 hr EASY later than others so i think you are doing great.  just ensure you don't move backwards.  come for more answers if things don't move closer towards 3 hrs soon.

i hope this reassurance helps - if you want to push towards 3 hrs i can help but i think you stand a great chance of pushing too hard and then she will nap less and you will be back where you started time wise but with a more tired baby KWIM? although she was previously eating every 3 hrs you said she was falling asleep at the end and less happy in A time, now you are working with her temperment and watching for her cues...and i bet you are both happier    she will get there soon enough

[sonja's mom]

Thank you Debra, that is very reassuring.  Part of my motivation for trying to get Sonja on EASY was not only her disposition when she's awake- which has miraculously improved in just the few days I have been trying this technique- but also to cut down on her "snacking".  I don't have major concerns about her being an overweight baby- can you really worry about that at a mere 8 weeks?- but the doctor (kindly) hinted that I might be overfeeding her and suggested that I try to use other "strategies" for soothing her besides sticking a bottle (or breast) in her mouth when she cries.

So it is important to me that she eats enough, but not more than she needs.  She does seem to be in control of the quantity she gets at a feeding, as I said she usually won't do more than 4 oz (which she drains in about 10 minutes) or 10 minutes max on each breast in the evenings.  I have a concern about the dream feed, which I guess I will post as a seperate topic.  But as you say, if we continue on this path, she should not only extend her contented wakeful time but possibly also increase her eating capacity to get her towards a 4 hour interval.  So, the spirited ones are harder to get to sleep? I usually find that it takes 10-15 minutes to get her asleep with shh/pat-  will this also improve over time?  I suspect that the daycare provider will not spend this much time and resort to rocking or bouncing her!

[Deb_in_oz]

feeding every 2.5 hrs is not technically snacking - and she should be moving towards 3 hrs so it is up to you how much you push for this as i say it is a fine balance between increasing the feeds/A time and losing out on the naps...

what you can do is this - using as an example her timings you gave where she fed at 7 and then was up from her nap at 9:30 "hungry".  you can keep her distracted for 10-15 min while you get her bottle ready... walk around the house, look at trees outside etc (idea = calm but distracting things) and then offer the bottle (= 2hr 45 min) with the hope that the extra time will lead to a larger feed or at least that you are gradually shifting her to 3 hrs without it being holding her off for 30 min to next "feed" if that is too much for her.  every few days try to stretch her another 5 min until you are at 3 hrs between feeds.  does that sound feasible for her or is she FRANTIC for food when she wakes.  if she is just grumbling telling you she is ready for food but not screaming/crying for it, 15 min might be feasible.


we went through a period early on with olivia when i was still BF her and she was eating very often because of very short A time and short naps....and the advice in Australia is minimum of 2 hrs between feeds using distraction if necessary.  the theory behind restricting the feeds is that if they eat too frequently the cycle is perpetuated because they snack and take a little food, get tired, fall asleep, but since they were only awake for a shorter while they only nap for a short while (because they did not do much to get REALLY tired, nor did they eat enough to sustain the longer A time) it is a major catch 22 and the point is you have to change 1 of the factors in order to get major change - so if you can't get a huge nap out of them in order to push the next feed out to 3 hours, the only other option is to increase the A time and hope that they will use up enough energy to need a good nap (without actually overtiring them) I found this  whole process very difficult but we got thorugh it in the end and i am sure you will too.

remember that 8 weeks is till very young and every baby is different.  yes spiriteds are usually harder to settle to sleep but please note that 10-15 min is excellent to get her down. does she show any signs that she could just put herself to sleep - or does she still NEED youi to do the pat/shh. we started trying to let her do it herself and only went in to do pat/shh if she was crying or fighting the sleep.  if she was doing normal settling stuff (fussing a bit, moving around...) we left her for up to 20 min (the average time it takes a baby to go to sleep) now she puts herself to sleep within 5-10 min and often almost instantly after putting her in her cot 

[sonja's mom]

Thanks again- that is a great suggestion.  Since we started EASY, Sonja has woken pretty peacefully lately, I often go to check on her when she does seem like she is sleeping longer than usual- only to find that she's awake and just looking at the designs on her bumper pads or some toys that she has hanging in the crib.  So although I don't really know how long she actually slept, typically I could probably get her to go another 10-15 as you say with some calm activities.

As far as the sleep is concerned, we just recently stopped relying on the swing and the vibration mode of her bouncer seat (as well as me bouncing around the house like a maniac with her in the baby bjorn) to get her to sleep, so it's only been a few times that I have witnessed Sonja just fall asleep on her own.  But it HAS happened so I know it can be done.  I think our problem is that we are not as tuned in to her sleep cues as we could be and therefore end up missing that window of opportunity- she ends up screaming, clearly tired, so we resort to shh/pat.  The good news is that it has been working like a charm, and this afternoon she took less than 5 minutes to go down that way.  I am concerned about her getting addicted to this, but with closer attention paid to her sleep cues I think it might not be necessary soon and as she gets older I will try the PU/PD if necessary.  It's good to know that 10-15 minutes  to get to sleep is a good range of time for a baby of her temprament- just seems long when you consider that she may only sleep one hour after all that- but the point is she got a nap and we did not have to let her cry it out, so I'll take the hour!

Thanks again for your insights- they have been most helpful and reassuring.

Marisa

[Deb_in_oz]

  I think our problem is that we are not as tuned in to her sleep cues as we could be and therefore end up missing that window of opportunity- she ends up screaming, clearly tired, so we resort to shh/pat.  The good news is that it has been working like a charm, and this afternoon she took less than 5 minutes to go down that way.  I am concerned about her getting addicted to this, but with closer attention paid to her sleep cues I think it might not be necessary soon and as she gets older I will try the PU/PD if necessary. 

that is how you will find that EASY gets easier - after you get better at catching her cues and putting her down in her woindow you will find that she does not need intervention to get to sleep - that's what i was saying about being able to put her down knowing you caught the window and give her a chance to do it herself.  you shoudl not need to put her to sleep forever - she will do it herself soon enough when you and she are ready to try.