STAAAAACCCYYYYYYYY!!!!!

[Judy]

Ok girl (all you girls!) - talk to me.  Your voice is being drowned out by dh over here!!

We're a week off the 6month mark and still exclusively bf these two girls!   My intent/hope is to go the whole first year - dh of course thinks bf is a good thing but he keeps spouting formula talk.  Here's why:

Girls are not sleeping well at night.  Kaia is starting to get SOME good nights but not every night.  And Hannah well - she's up at 11pm and around 3am and then 6-7am.   At least they are starting to eat and go straight back to bed now (used to be up for at least 1hr 10min if not more).

So he thinks formula would help them sleep.  "if it's better for them then wouldn't you do it?" he says.  I tell him what I've read on formula and he says "that's just one opinion.  Certainly there will be lots of PRO formula research too.  Maybe they aren't getting enough nutrients from you.  Afterall you are feeding two and you can't be getting enough sleep"  - ok so truth is he actually added "you're up almost as much as I am and I know I'm not getting enough sleep so you can't be!"  I bit my tongue on that one.  Ok so he 'wakes' and I get UP and somehow he considers that the same thing?  Whatever!  (he generally is not a good sleeper but I get so annoyed at the impression that it is still more difficult for him!)

Weight... the girls are in the lowest percentile for weight.  Still on the chart though and I think that indicates that they're doing fine.  They go 4hrs during the day between feeds without problem.  They could care less about solids so I assume hunger is not an issue.  But now we were at the dr.'s 2 weeks ago and then again today for needles as the girls were with colds last time.  Well Hannah has not gained an ounce since 2 weeks and in fact may have lost an ounce or so (considering dh did the conversion from metric to imperial so rounding and all we can even call it the same weight) so now he's thinking she's not getting what she needs.  Kaia although did gain about 4 oz in that same time period.

I need a pep talk b/c I find when people start suggesting I add in formula ('even just at night') it makes me start to question whether or not I should... and we all know once you introduce one bottle the next one comes easier and easier......

[Fife_Mum]

No! No! No!

OK there may be arguments for formula, but NOT if you want to keep breastfeeding as long as possible and the whole 'they'll sleep longer' thing is not necessarily true. If it is, then it is because it takes longer for your LO's still small stomachs to digest the less suitable milk IMO.

You may not be getting enough sleep but that will not affect your milk. I'm not sure if your girls were premature and/or if your charts are for breastfed babies. but it sounds like they are both healthy and happy so try not too worry to much.

Just my opinion but I'd try introducing solids rather than formula. Edited to add: only if you feel that you need to change things - I don't think that even with slow gain or minor loss there is necessarily a problem.

[GraceKellysmom]

As for the weight loss, if they were sick, I'm surprised they both didn't lose or maintain. Yes, they are going to be petite, they are twins. And your other girls are petite, although you can't compare singleton to twin. Also, are the growth charts they are measured on specifically for twins? I doubt it! They are meeting their milestones, they aren't sleeping a ton, and they're not going to gain a ton. (If they are interested in eating every 3 or 3.5 hrs during the day, would you try it to see if they woke less at night?)

I can find some anti-formula information for you if you would like. I will research and pm you because I don't want to offend anyone here. Everyone has a right to decide how to feed their own child, whether I agree with it or not. You know how I feel about formula and I'm happy to take on your dh for you. (while you nap, girl!)

One thing I will say about formula is that it will NOT help them sleep if they aren't waking for hunger. At this age, it is SO much more likely developmental than hunger. Although, I think most babies say "hey I'm up, mind passing me that breast?"  :lol:  Are they rolling, scooting, sitting? These next few months are full of night-wakings, and sorry to say, you're in for double ups.

My dh was a lot like yours in that he complained so much about not sleeping. He NEVER got up with either baby, he woke up and fell right back to sleep. I did get him to start sleeping with the fan on, and I put an extra pillow by his side of the bed so if baby was crying he could put it on his other ear and go back to sleep. He had to go to work, and I did the night wakings. So he had no say in what I did with the children other than to take care of me.

As for solids, wait until you and the girls are ready. 6 months isn't a magical moment in time. The woman I knew that EBF her twin girls, did it until about 8 months  :shock:  and then started feeding them finger foods from the table. She just skipped the jarred stuff, and I don't blame her, it's expensive X1, let alone X2!

And Judy


YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at you, you made it to 6 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOOOOOHOOOOOO! It just makes me grin from ear to ear, I'm so darn happy for you, and I feel lucky to have been witness to it. You're my hero, hon. Sometime will you post a pic of you nursing both to my pm? I'd love to have it for inspiration. BIG {HUGS}     

[webfoot]

Evan has one bottle of formula a day (although lately he doesn't take much of it unless he's really hungry) and he is up that much at night. I swear he wakes for the cuddles! I just sleep in the guest room with him and let him nurse away. If they still get up the same IMHO a bottle is more hassle at night b/c you have to go make it. Plus will your girls even take a bottle at this point? (and Evan is older and a singleton!)

Well good for you for making it that long. I'd just tell dh to go sleep somewhere else.
LOL!

[Kayna]

Hi Judy, I have nothing great to add but love to brag about my mom when I get a chance.  :lol:

I am a twin and my mom breastfed us until we were on sippy cups. She would nurse one of us on each side and knit in the middle. :shock:  :lol:  :shock: She is still the queen of multi-tasking. She has been my inspiration to keep nursing even with dd's MSPI.

I admire any mom who has the dedication to breastfeed one child and hold only the highest regard for those who nurse twins. Whatever your decision you should be so proud. :wink:

[Judy]

You know how I feel about formula and I'm happy to take on your dh for you. (while you nap, girl!)

       Great idea!!!  And yes, please pm that info.

THANK YOU to all of you wonderful ladies!!!  Tanya, I'm relieved (sorry) to hear that the one bottle of formula isn't helping Evan to sleep through.  That's what dh is hoping for - formula before bed.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your encouragement gals.  It's so easy to start to wonder 'should I or shouldn't I' when others suggest formula.  I've mentioned his comments to a few people and while they are encouraging of the breastfeeding I get a lot of "well why not?  It won't hurt them". 

I was feeling a bit selfish because part of me wants to do the year for ME and I know I'd feel like I let myself and them down to give up early - but is that a good motivator?  Doesn't matter right.  Remain determined.

Good point Stacy too on them not feeling well.  Hannah has definitely had a rotten stuffy nose every morning for well over 2 weeks now.  She's ok as the day progresses but there were a number of times that morning feed was followed by her throwing a lot of it back up from gagging on the, sorry, snot.  (now THAT'S a challenge - to avoid that going all over the face of Kaia - but she kept dry every time.)

I'll take a pic Stace and send it by PM to you one of these days - I did mention to dh that we should do that.  I think he really is trying to be supportive but he doesn't have any opinions on formula and I think he 'wonders' (worries) that my body isn't able to keep up to feeding them both.  I know I'm doing fine - if I do happen to feed one before the other I will still leak out of the first breast so it's not completely empty so they aren't starving. 

I've offered cereal but neither cares for it much.  Hannah isn't the least bit interested and Kaia will take 3-4 bites at her best time and then she's had enough.

I'd be more than willing to feed them every 3-3.5hrs again if they'd sleep through... I'd have to wake them from naps though and I hate to do that.  They are great nappers (usually 2 2hr naps +catnap - so that could be limited a bit too).  Kaia slept right through last night so we're getting there... but Hannah was up the other night every single hour up to 2.30am and then again at 5.15, 5.45 and 6.10.  I finally fed her at 2.30am and not because she demanded it but more because I was just hoping for more sleep.  But I really think it's teeth as I'm sure I feel the rough edges of one about to poke through. 

And yes they are rolling, trying to scoot, not sitting up yet really but I'm giving them lots of opportunity to try so yes lots of developmental stuff going on.  We were obviously very fortunate with Zoe and Sarah as we were getting 12hrs every night by 3months.

Good points too on the charts being for a singleton.  Didn't think of that.  Shouldn't even consider the charts really - dr doesn't even make mention of it.  We just happened to be looking at it as we waited.  Zoe and Sarah were both in the 95th percentile up to 1yr then dropped back a fair bit.... so the3rd percentile is a big difference.  But they are twins.

Kayna - great to hear about your mom!!   

Thanks again for the encouragement.  Can't tell you gals how helpful it is!!!!

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Everyone already said it but I just wanted to add that I am SUPER impressed at your bf'ing twins for this long and planning to go longer! I know how frustrating it must be to get all the pressure to supplement, but it's really more likely to be developemental wakings (and with 2, do they wake each other too...? :shock: ).  Bf babies are often a bit on the lower end of the weight curve and are still super healthy, and when any baby is sick they tend not to put extra weight on.  You're doing great and hopefully dh will see the light!  You've got lucky kids, that's for sure!!

[deb]

[I've offered cereal but neither cares for it much.  Hannah isn't the least bit interested and Kaia will take 3-4 bites at her best time and then she's had enough.

Well, if someone offered me wallpapaer paste I'd decline too! LOL I tasted it after I started Josie on it and I was surprised she took ANY! :lol:

With Natalie I'm starting with bananas and avacados, having mixed luck with them - she seems to like the taste (unless I use 2-day-old milk to dilute it) but it takes 5-6 spoonfuls before any stays in.

Anyway, a different food might be the trick?

BTW, I second YOU GO GIRL!!!!!

[GraceKellysmom]

If she is waking up every hour it must be teeth. Do you give her anything? I know also that if Max is interrupted in the first couple hours of sleep, his whole night is shot. Way to go Kaia on sleeping so well when her sis is up, though.

Yep, you're right, you're making plenty of milk for them and they are doing well and thriving. When I get to the whole "formula talk" in my head I like to pretend like the option just doesn't exist. (hard when your dh is pounding it into your brain, I'm sure) But I just say, if there wasn't formula, this is just what I'd do. I'd keep nursing.

Life for us got pretty easy around 8 months. Max was nursing 4 times per day, and after he started crawling he started sleeping much better. He had 3 solids meals and was just a happier baby after the majority of the teeth came through.

I think of you every day at lunch, when I'm feeding Max and day care baby. They sit opposite of me in their highchairs and I spoon one and then the other. Fortunately, Max is starting to use the spoon more himself.

I haven't forgotten about you, just give me some time to dig up formula stuff for your dh.  :wink:

[Judy]

Well, if someone offered me wallpapaer paste I'd decline too!

      That's funny!!  I did make them some yummy homegrown squash.  Kaia ate a few more bites tonight.  Hannah took one yesterday (I didn't bother today as they'd just had needles and she wasn't in the happiest spirit).  I think Hannah is having fun with me because she looks at me, smirks, then sticks her tongue out.  But within about 4min they're both in tears.  Oh and I even tried regular adult Oat Bran.  Funny thing is Sarah and Zoe are always trying to eat the baby stuff???

Way to go Kaia on sleeping so well when her sis is up, though

For sure!!  Although I don't feed in their room if one is sleeping because it really does seem to wake them - and not because it's noisy at all, I think they must smell it??

I think of you every day at lunch, when I'm feeding Max and day care baby. They sit opposite of me in their highchairs and I spoon one and then the other.

  

No rush on the info - whenever you have time.  I appreciate your willingness to get it for me!!  You're the best! 

[annamum]

Sorry to chime in so late but I wanted to add that I truly admire you Judy for nursing your twins.

My opinion is that if you already got so far, why introduce formula. Everybody has to admit that breastmilk is better than formula. People make choices when it comes to feeding their babies and I don't mean to question their decisions but if you are already giving a taylor-made nutritious milk to your girls, why change it to something that is not the best.

I will also look for some info on formula for you.

KEEP GOING. YOU ARE FABULOUS!!!

[Katet]

Judy you are a champion, everyone I know with twins (all first bubs) bottle fed as bf was too hard... but you are doing it with 2 toddlers too... that alone makes you a star & my HERO!!

I read your post 5mins before a friend dropped by... she is a mothercraft nurse & doing training in lactation consulting.

Her comments
 :arrow: Formula can make babies sleep better when they are under 3mo... by 4-5months they can actually make it worse!!! As it is just another change in a babies life that is changing so much anyway... also a good point for why solids after 6mo is good (In my mind anyway)

 :arrow: It may be you have a good supply, but because you are doing twins you don't adjust to growth spurts as well as you did with your singletons... meaning you build it up over 24 hours, but not for each day time feed (your each feed supply hasn't helped an "age appropriate stomach stretch" to allow them to take in enough to "save for later"... single mums can offer a second breast, you can't... so she suggested maybe pumping 5mins after a feed so there was more for them to take at a day feed, which may help in needing the night to give the top up as they are now???... does that make sense

 :arrow: Finally she said from her experience, twins even full term like yours by nature tend to be a bit like a premi & should have a bit of age adjustment & it would be reasonable for them to be at a "stage" a month behind a singleton

I also wanted to add... My dh makes the formula comment from time to time... Male way of always having to find a solution. But as others have said it probably won't fix it anyway... I am not ready to give up bf & I know if I had to I would be an emotional wreck... so I know where you are coming from. These are your last babies & you want to give them what you gave Zoe & Sarah & also YOU need to feed if you NEED to. I can't quite explain it but I feel if I was forced to stop, I would feel like I had almost killed Liam. So I completely understand you wanting to do the year & I think you need to explain to your dh that need & that research has shown that often women who stop before being ready carry guilt & all sorts of emotions about that child through their life & that would effect the twins too as If you stopped I think it would affect your attachment to them & could cause even more waking (wonder what Teddy would say on that???) esp as they approach the seperation anxiety stage???

[Colleen]

Oh Judy, you are doing so great! I do want to add a couple of things from my personal experience (though not with twins of course) --

1. Throw the @*@* growth chart away. They are so pointless. Did you notice the nice little formula company logo on the bottom? They are like those annoying flyers people leave on your car advertising their business. Look at how your girls have grown over the last 6 months. Have they grown? Are they alert and generally happy? Are they having proper plumbing movements?  Who cares how they compare to singleton formula fed babies (or even to other breastfed twins!!).

2. Most babies don't have a lot of growth around this time. This used to be my soapbox issue ages ago -- they are MOVING now! They use up so many calories doing this, OF COURSE their growth slows a little until their appetite catches up. And if they've been a little sick, even moreso!

3. I am not anti-formula. But I don't think it will be the magical fix for your situation. Griffin was formula fed from 2 months old, and he didn't sleep through the night until he was almost a year old.

4. As for solids -- skip the cereals. Offer pears or apples, and you can always add some EBM to change the flavor and consistancy. Or -- just start giving them finger foods. Griffin was eating cheerio halves by 6 months and loved it.

5. TRUST YOUR INSTINCT. Do you feel they would benefit from LESS breastmilk? The answer may be yes or no. Listen to what your babies are telling you. Let THEM be the deciding factor.

6. With all this said though -- do keep your whole family in mind. Is there a reason your DH is feeling this way (maybe something beyond the sleep issue he mentioned)? How is continuing to nurse going to affect your family vs giving formula? Sometimes there are other factors that come into play beyond just how YOU feel. I hope that isn't coming out wrong -- not saying you are selfish!! Just that at least with MY situation with Griffin's nursing, it reached a point where it was no longer the best thing for the family to continue nursing.

If you look at the whole picture, what is your instinct telling you?

[Judy]

You ladies are all the best!!!!!

Stacy & Monika thanks so much for the info you both PM'd me.  I'm working my way through it.  Regardless of whether or not it impacts dh - it's renewed my commitment to this - great motivation.  Thanks!!!

Funny - I find *some* who chose not to bf or not to bf for the whole year seem a bit defensive of my choice to keep going.  Not everyone by any means - but I've noticed it a couple of times.

Colleen & Kate thanks so much for everything you both had to say. 

I'm feeling really good about this again.  you gals rock!

[jaxnp]

Hey Judy,
From one breastfeeding mom with skinny kids to another, I think you're doing great!  Seriously, Kaitlin is probably in the 5th % for weight now, and I KNOW I produce enough milk.  I can get 6 ounces easily in less than 10 minutes of pumping.  Plus she eats solids like a horse.  She's just active and has been small since birth.  If you're unsure of your supply, have you tried doing a yield?  BTW, I think I told you I was a nanny for twin girls in college, and their mother exclusively breastfed them for 2 years!!

[Duckie]

Sigh.  Judy, you are my hero.

You have 4 amazing little girls, all of whom are thriving, let alone you are b/f-ing twins with 2 toddlers underfoot.

Man oh man how do you do it!?  I had 1 and lasted 3.5 weeks nursing!  (Long story, horrible experience, don't ask!)

I was a volunteer on ds's field trip today and had my own plus 2 others to watch and spent the morning in a panic trying to keep track of them.  And you manage to leave the house with 4.

Wow.

Keep up the good work!

[Judy]

Thanks Katherine!!   I'd forgotten about that mom!! 

[Judy]

Duckie - I don't leave the house very often with 4!!!  And when I do I'm usually going to a friends house!

As for how I do it - you ladies would LAUGH if you saw me... I breastfeed in my computer chair here... both girls at once on their 'couch' (bf pillow).  The chair has wheels - starting to picture it?  LOL  I roll through the house when necessary!!  We can actually get good speed on the fake hardwood in the hallway!!

[annamum]

The chair has wheels - starting to picture it?  LOL  I roll through the house when necessary!!  We can actually get good speed on the fake hardwood in the hallway!!

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Good idea, I am going to remember that for future reference.

[Melissa (Sydney's Mommy)]

Ah, Judy, you're cracking my up.  What a funny and wonderful woman you are.  You should be the calendar girl for multitasking--wheeling around feeding two babies and typing and doing who knows what else.  Amazing.  Just an aside, perhaps it's good that your girls aren't exactly rocking the darn charts.  Trenton is huge, and there's no way I can imagine nursing two babies of that size.  They just wouldn't fit--I mean there's just so much room around that area, and Trenton takes every inch himself....  and with bigger babies everything you do while nursing would be sooo much harder.  Perhaps this is God's way of giving you a small break.  Sounds like the girls are healthy, and I agree with everyone else, formula won't make them sleep better.

I agree that moms that quit earlier are not exactly supportive when others choose to continue.  Most moms that I work with quit when they returned to work (3 months) or shortly thereafter.  I'm a bit of a "freak" for continuing.  And I'm sure many are wondering when I'm going to stop.   :lol:  :lol:   I know exactly what you're talking about. 

I saw your post early yesterday, but didn't have time to reply.  I knew that by the time I got back online, you would have some great info and support.  These ladies never let us down.