How long should I let my baby scream??

[sadiebean]

I think I know the answer to this, but I need to hear it specifically said to me. Is it ok if my baby screams his head off while I'm trying to help him sleep? He is 5.5 months old. I can't pick him up or it gets worse (which kind of makes sense, b/c it confuses him -- why would I pick him up then put him down? plus, the second time I pick him up he remains inconsolable in my arms.)

So... I let him lay there, and I pat his belly, and I lean over and put my arms around him. But he screams bloody murder, and I can't take it. Even with tissue in my ear (a must! I also have to take deep breaths to remember to breath, it is nauseating)

Granted, I've given up the few times I've tried this. But that's because I don't know... how long is it ok to let him scream???

[fleadle]

I let my baby scream for approx. 10 mins before going back in the room to pat her back....it doesn't sound like a long time, but when she is screaming it feels like a lifetime.

I find that staying in the room & fussing her just makes things worse, I think she knows I am there even when I don't touch her & think she just cries to see how far she can push me until I give in & cuddle her.

This was very hard at first but she now knows that when she goes in her cot she goes to sleep & she gradually screamed less & less....she still has her off days.

Also I find that if I leave it until she is overtired she will cry for longer & take A LOT longer to settle, I have tried to spot the earlier signs of tiredness before crying & try to wind her down for bed which (when I get it right!) results in her going down pretty quitely & falling asleep much quicker.

[Jaime]

Just wanted to mention that crying it out and/or controlled crying is not a method we recommend or endorse on this site.  Tracy has asked us to remind posters that she always cautions against any form of crying it out/controlled crying because she feels it breaks trust between parent and child. She has said many times that there is a gentler solution for every situation, we just have to find it.

I understand your frustration in not seeing the results you'd like right away. The thing is, Tracy makes it very clear that her methods only work with complete consistency and that you must see it through all the way. One must be very dedicated to starting as they mean to go on to have results. In her new book she states that parents who find pu/pd to not work have usually not been given it enough time, or have not completely given up old habits. One must be 100% in their efforts to change sleep habits.

There are many tips on the pu/pd board that should help you with your lo.  there are also many tips on the nap board here - you may want to check the announcements at the top for some more ideas.

finally, here's a link to the sleep interview, which has more specific information as well:
http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/a-special-sleep-interview-with-tracy-hogg-vt451.html

once you have formulated a plan, you need to stick to it.  your baby will resist the change at first, but it is up to you to be persistant. 

good luck & HTH 

[Katet]

As a BW follower & moderator (& mother of 2 including a 5mo) I can't recommend leaving your lo to cry/sceam for ANY period on his own. 
He is crying for a reason... you have changed the "rules" on him, he doesn't understand & so is saying Mummy I want it done the way we used to do it. I'm confused & upset. Help me now.
Everytime you let him cry alone/scream then "rescue" him by going back to him & doing the old way you are effectively telling him he just has to cry/scream longer & louder next time to get your help.

YES PU/PD is hard & they do cry louder & harder & it can take up to 100+ pu/pd in the early days & it isn't a miracle cure it will take maybe a week or more to totally work. The thing about it is you are there showing your lo & helping them, if you leave him to cry on his own he feels abandonded & confused & will eventually go to sleep from exhaustion & despondency rather than "learning" how to go off in a more caring way.
Yes of course he will cry & scream, but is it better that he does it in the arms of someone he trusts rather than all on his own.

All that said for our sanity there is times we all have to walk out of the room to get our selves into a better place as we can't cope a second longer...the thing is there is NO TIME amount ANYONE can advise. If it takes you 30secs or 10mins sometimes you just need to do what you need to do. That said what ever time you do take out YOU are doing it FOR YOU & it is NOT HELPING your baby SLEEP BETTER.
So my advice is until you are ready to spend the time with the screams/crying, you need to keep doing it your fallback way otherwise all you are doing is confusing your lo & making him cry for no reason
Sorry to give you bad news, but I've been there & know how hard it is & there is many a day I sure would give anything for some "magic sleeping dust"

[Taylor's Mommy]

As someone who went throug PU/PD with my dd, it took us a good four days of consistent PU/PD for EVERY sleep time before we started to see the results we had hoped for, ie., and independent sleeper.  The longest crying session was about 40 minutes, and they gradually decreased over the days as we did it, but it worked after 4 days and now she is the best little independent sleeper any mom could ask for. 
THe key is consistency as the other moms said.
And it may seem confusing to the lo, but by pickign them up, you are reassuring them that your are there, but by putting them down, you are essentially saying to them that you need to try to settle yourself on your own, KWIM?

Good luck!

[sadiebean]

Thank you all for the input. To clarify, I do NOT leave him alone to cry, I stay with him the entire time. Letting him lie there and cry (with pats, and my face close to his saying calming things) is something I think Tracy would support since pu/pd gets him more upset. I would happily pu/pd but like I said, THAT seems to  break more trust wiht him (like I'm teasing him.)

So I guess the answer to my question is, as long as I am with him, letting him know that I am there, then I should let him get hysterical and trust that each time it will get better??

Tracy speaks of the crying peaking after 3 crescendos... am I missing something? he just wails his head off.

Also, should I just keep trying pu/pd, even though he doesn't calm in my arms but keeps screaming? I know Tracy says, put them down as soon as they are at all calm (their need is met)... but he doesn't calm, and if you asked him, he'd quite assure you his need was NOT met : )

Is this (when he won't calm in my arms and is wailing in his crib) where I should pick him up and actually leave the room if that's what it takes to calm him down? And then return to his room and crib once he's calm?

[Jaime]

it sounds like you are trying very hard to understand what your little guy wants/needs.    

yes, some babies are more upset by pu/pd - my ds was one of them.  it has been much more helpful to soothe him in the bed the entire time - he's still that way at 9 months old!  i stay with him until he calms down and then walk away.  if he starts up again, i go back to him immediately & resume soothing.  and i repeat as long as necessary.

if, after about 45 minutes or so, he still seems to be rather hysterical, go ahead and take him out of the room for some very subdued awake time. 

it does get better, i promise.    just don't cave in (even though you will want to!!!)

[Aarismom]

Hmm...5.5 months old...could teething also be an issue?

Sometimes when my lo won't stop screaming when I pick her up at this age (she's almost 6 months now), I give her baby tylonal or baby motrin, and she calms right down, and she's back to sleep withing 15 mins or so. Not that I'm suggesting that's the problem, if you're sleep training obviously there's going to be some crying. The older they are the longer it takes to train, unfortunately. However, if teething is also an issue, it could complicate things a little bit. My lo only seems to show irratation when she's trying to go to sleep.

You're doing a great job. Keep up with it and he'll get it soon!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[evanskimberley]

My daughter is touchy and could never cope with PU/PD or shh/pat, I had to come up with other ways to calm her down.
I use a soothing lullaby CD which she has next to her bed. She has that on everynight to as part of her wind down time as she falls asleep, it also works wondres if she needs calming down after a pain attack form teeth etc. i have to put it on really loud to drown her out to start with, then turn it down once its had an effect.
I also use a dummy and a lovey as a way of reassurance and love without me actually touching her.
This may not be what every does, but its the way that works for us.

[evanskimberley]

My daughter is touchy and could never cope with PU/PD or shh/pat, I had to come up with other ways to calm her down.
I use a soothing lullaby CD which she has next to her bed. She has that on everynight to as part of her wind down time as she falls asleep, it also works wondres if she needs calming down after a pain attack form teeth etc. i have to put it on really loud to drown her out to start with, then turn it down once its had an effect.
I also use a dummy and a lovey as a way of reassurance and love without me actually touching her.
This may not be what every does, but its the way that works for us.

[jayne]

i wasnt able to do pu/pd with gina because she is a touchy baby.. what i found best for us was a longer wind down period.. i didnt put her in her crib until she was almost asleep -- then i would place my hand on her and shush--sometimes even pat/shush was too much stimulation and once she had gotten the point of drifting off the pat part would wake her up... now if she was crying and i was settling her the pat part worked

i found it was a bunch of trial and error.. keeping with tracys methods just tweaking them to what worked for us

[chark]

Hi - I read the Baby Whisperer a while ago and tried it last week on our 3 1/2 week old who was feeding every 3 hours with no fixed feed time and never slept through. Within 3 days on the 3 hour routine, he slept through the night!!!!!! Magic. The daytime naps were harder. PUPD totally wound him him and he pretty much hated the shushing. He seems to get wound up by all the fussing. At first it took over an hour and a half to even settle him in order put him in his cot and it was awful having him scream on me and arch his back. Yesterday (day 7) it took 3 minutes. WOW. I think the 'magic' is not letting him sleep when he wants to (i.e. after a feed.) He was so tired by day 3 because I kept prodding (nicely) him to stay awake during his daytime feeds. Eventually I think he just gave up. To be honest, I don't think babies feel abandoned with controlled crying but I do think mums feel so awful that they pass their stress on to the babies. Now he wakes after 45 minutes and I only go in if he starts to scream. If he is whimperring then he seems to suck his hands and eventually go back. That time is reducing too. I think stick to the routine, set yourself a limit on how long you are going to try to get him to sleep (say an hour?) and then don't let him sleep at any 'none-sleep' time. Friends and family will no doubt stick their oar in and give you funny looks about 'the regime' as mine call it but who cares if it works! Good luck.

Oh by the way, he is now on the 4 hour routine (very big baby, 3 1/2/ months and was pushing to go longer in any case.) I asked my health visitor if I should feed every 4 instead of 3 because he seemed happy. She said definitely not until he sleeps through the night. Ha - she was sooooooo wrong! By feeding every 4 hours, he will sleep through the night more easily because he can go longer.

[sadiebean]

Well I thought I might give an update to my own question. It's Day 3 of EASY and so far, I think we're making progress.

By the afternoon nap(s) on Day 1 I found ssh/pat to be much more effective for him. Which is good, because at the end of that day I decided that hysterical crying is just not OK with me.

So, when ssh/pat doesn't work, and he cries unconsolably (meaning, even when I rock him, walk him around, etc he is hysterically upset) we end that session and go downstairs.

I don't believe this is caving in (thoughts??) because I am not nursing him to sleep. Though last night before bed, when he was inconsolable (way overtired) I did nurse him to soothe him. But I did it downstairs in the living room, and then walked him up to bed sleepy but woken up. So he still had to settle himself, but this time he had been consoled.

Thoughts??? Don't be afraid to be honest... if you think I'm kidding myself, let loose. thank you!

[Kayna]

My dd does not like pu/pd either but in Tracey's book it states that you should not fight him/her on this. (p. 223 in her 3rd book) I too just kneel at her crib with a heavy hand on her chest and use my voice to soothe her. The first couple days she cried and cried but it worked like a charm. She felt safe and secure because I never left her, not until she was completely asleep. Tracey states that you should not take the crying personally, they are not angry at you just frustrated that they can't get to sleep. (again p. 223) This motto helped me get through those crying times when I felt like I couldn't take it. It sounds to me like you are doing it the correct way but in a modified version (same thing I did) every baby is different.

Good luck and maybe go back and refresh yourself on those few pages. It made so much more sense to me after that and I felt like I was doing the right thing. Now that she's sleeping so well and know it was right for me. HTH. :lol:  :lol:

[chark]

Hmm. I'm still having major problems with extending naptimes. How long did your little one cry for the first few times when you put your hand on and did he eventually go to sleep? How long did it take the next time? I still feel like I am winding him up.

[Kayna]

It took dd around 55 min. the 1st time (cried for about 20 minutes of that) and around 25 min for the 2nd and 3rd times. Now every once in a while I still need to go and lay my hand on her but it takes under 10 minutes.

I've had her on easy since she was 2 weeks old and have done pat/shhh and  promoted falling asleep on her own since birth. So she really just kind of needed a refresher course. I know that most babies would take longer than that to really have it start working.

[chark]

So what exactly do you do? Just literally press your hand gently but firmly on her chest and leave it there for the whole 55 minutes. Do you say anything? Do you do anything different when she starts going crazy? Do you ever pick up because when I do it seems to make it ten times worse.

[chark]

SORRY! Just reread your post - you said "use my voice to soothe her." I'll try that today. I've been wary of talking to him because he seems asleep but crying so didn't want to wake him even more.

[Kayna]

I only use my voice, "It's okay, I know you're just tired and mommy is here to help you get to sleep" when she is full fledge crying. If it's a mantra cry I just keep my hand on her chest because my voice starts to disturb her at that point. I do keep my hand on her the entire time until she's asleep (now I can leave when she just starts to drift because she feels safe). I don't ever pick her up because it makes it worse (she arches her back and screams louder). I don't fight her though and just talk gently through the cries.

At first it didn't make a difference but now that I've been consistant she calms right now with my voice and a hand on her chest.

It makes it all worth it when she's just about in dreamland and she's looking at me all calm and I just know she feels safe and secure. I can't imagine how scary it would be for her crying all alone. :cry: You're doing great. Keep it up and you'll be home free very soon. :wink: It's hard to figure our lo out but such a good feeling when you do.

[chark]

Okay. Thanks. I'll keep trying. I keep caving in and when he goes mental, I pick him up. He just slept for 45 then woke, when he started crying (rather than grumbling) i went in and put my hand on. Ended up picking him up twice but ...oh god I was going to say I thought he went back to sleep but I can hear him. Damn. Gotta go. This is sooooooo unbelievably hard.

[Kayna]

Oh don't get me wrong. If picking him up soothes him by all means do so. I don't because it does the opposite for dd. It is called pu/pd but you can modifiy it to make it work for you.

Just remember with pu/pd.....if lo is crying pick him up but only until he stops crying and then place him back in his crib. Even if he starts crying again on the way back down, fully place him down and then pick him back up.

Pu/pd takes a lot of work and dedication because it could take 100 times of picking up but it does pay off in the long run if you're consistant.

I'm not really the expert on pu/pd but happen to have just gone through it. So if you want some better advice you may want to visit the pu/pd board. There are some fabulous mod's there. Good luck and be patient.

[chark]

It does soothe him (usually) but then he seems even more upset when I put him down again. I'm sure it prolongs it. I just feel I'm being inconsistent. Maybe I should just stick to the hand and voice thing - at least he knows what to expect. It's all very well me being upset about his crying but I need to be fair to him and consistency is the best way...it is just really, really hard. I've failed three times today to get him back to sleep. Each time, I tried for an hour. Has been the same all week apart from once when he found his thumb and that worked a treat. Have used dummies in the past but they just fall out and he gets furious.

[Kayna]

You're doing great and yes consistency is key. Might I suggest introducing a lovey? DD would not take a pacifier but absolutely loves her blanket bear.

[Kayna]

Here's a link to a discussion about lovey's we're having right now.

http://babywhisperer.com/forum/11-week-old-with-lovey-ok-vt44384.html?highlight=&sid=b1072f8fd2f2a238926268ca463633f6

[chark]

OH MY GOD. SUCCESS, SUCCESS, SUCCESS. My husband put him down on Saturday at 9am and he SLEPT FOR TWO HOURS. I was so happy and yet so worried that I couldn't do it. Failed to get back after 45 mins on Saturday afternoon but then on Sunday, I tried and I got him to sleep for TWO HOURS at 9am and then TWO HOURS at 1pm. He grizzled every 45 minutes but nothing serious and I didn't have to go in. Yesterday was tricky due to swimming lessons ( http://www.waterbabies.co.uk ) but today he has been asleep for an hour and a half with only one grizzle (no intervention.)

NO DUMMIES, no radio, no pram, no rocking. Aha hahahahahah. I am so happy. He was such a happy little baby yesterday. I am FINALLY starting to enjoy my maternity leave because my baby is happy.  He still screams occasionally when I put him down but I usually only have to pick him up once or twice.

He also found his thumb which has helped enormously.

Thanks for your help!

[fleadle]

Since reading all the responses to your question & feeling totally guilty about leaving my LO to CIO (DH's preferred method!) I decided to change my ways & look after my LO the way I WANT TO....no matter what he says! & go with my mothering instinct.

I have persevered with patting / shhh to sleep & she seems happier & falls asleep a little quicker.....& I am A LOT HAPPIER!!!

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!