Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem

[Mom to M&M]

Hi there. Lately my Marisa, 11 weeks tomorrow, has had a problem with 45 min naps during her second nap of day. She is on 4-hour routine (always has been 3.5-4 - her choice) and that nap is almost always in her crib. She will generally put herself to sleep fine for it - watching her crib toy/soother and sometimes sucking her hand (which she only learned to do a few days ago).

However, lately, for this second nap (starts anywhere between 1-1:45 depending on wake time that day), she wakes after 40-50 minutes.

I try to catch the jolts and sometimes and successful. Today I thought I had them but then a few minutes later she jolted again and I missed it and she was awake and very upset. I tried a modified pat/shush but that never seems to work for me. She has reflux so I can't really pat and the shush never seems to calm her.

I've tried taking her out of the room for some quiet time but that rarely works either.

I thought this was supposed to happen around 4 months - not now? What is going on and what should I do?

I really don't want her to have a pacifier addiction. I don't mind using it as a last resort because she is so young, but it would only be if necessary. She and I seem to prefer her hands - but she has an easier time with that at night than during the day.

Please help!

Many thanks.
Karen

[Mom to M&M]

I should add that she still looks soooo tired after only 45 minutes and keeps yawning and rubbing eyes but just can't seem to sleep. If calming her doesn't work and she doesn't want quiet activity time should I try feeding her early?

Also, this doesn't happen at all at night. Then she goes in easily and almost always falls asleep on own watching crib soother and sucking hand. She stays asleep for up to 8 hours with just some minor stirring, then when she wakes I feed her and she goes back to sleep for 3-4 hours...

[Mom to M&M]

Anyone? She also wasn't able to catnap for more than 15 minutes twice over. Now she is so overtired it is ridiculous.

Like I said, we are on 4-hour routine. In the morning, she usually wakes between 7:30-8 and is awake for 1.5 hours. She naps either in crib or car seat/stroller for at least 2.5 hours. I generally have to wake her. Should I let her keep napping here and if so, for how much longer beyond the 4-hour cycle? She is often still yawning when I get her up.

Will that help her take better second nap and catnap? Or is the problem that the first nap is already too long? So confused.

Also, if she is yawning but then stops when she looks at something new and seems happy and calm, do I need to act on that yawn and get her to bed or is it OK to keep her awake since she seems to want to?

Ack!

[Diego's Mama]

Okay, give me a breakdown of all her sleep.  Is she bottle fed btw?

Bedtime ________

Awake _________

1st nap _________ for ________ long

2nd nap _________ for ________ long

3rd nap ________ for _________ long

I have a feeling she's having lots of nighttime sleep and that early feeding after the 8 hours, what time does that happen?, and then back to bed may be acting as her first nap.......

I'll check back

[Mom to M&M]

Hi Laura. She is bottle fed.

- Bedtime: 7:45-8pm

- Overnight Waking: Anywhere between 2:30-4 am usually (last night was 3:30am)

- Back to Bed: 45 minutes after waking (usually will take almost full bottle)

- Morning Wake Time: Between 7:30-8am

- First Nap: 1 1/2 hours after wake time (although she is yawning before this). She will usually sleep at least 2 1/2 hours - I have to generally wake her to eat and she is not always happy about it and still yawning. Today this nap was from 9:40 until I woke her at 12:10. This nap is usually in car seat/stroller (helps with her reflux) but I can make it in crib and second nap in stroller if that would help out her day.

- Second Nap: 1 1/4-1 1/2 hours after wake from second nap - she is yawning sooner. Today she awoke after 50 minutes and I couldn't get her back to sleep. Pat/shush just seems to make her cry more. Yesterday I got her through one sleep cycle so she slept about 1 1/2 hours at this nap before waking and unable to get back to sleep. She still seems tired and yawning though. Today she fell asleep for this nap (herself in crib) at 1:25

- Third Nap: 1 1/2 hours ideally after wake from second nap - although lately it is all thrown off. Ideally would catnap from 5:30-6:30 or thereabouts. Today I got her to catnap in stroller from 5:10-5:25 and again from 5:35-5:50 - but that was it.

- Dinner Bottle: 7pm

She seems so tired (understandably when not napping well after first nap) by dinner time. Earlier in the day she can easily make it 4 hours or longer (she doesnt' seem to want to eat sooner) before eating but by dinner time I can barely get her to make it 3 hours - which is fine, I feed her early.

Many thanks for any help! Let me know if you need more info.

Karen and Marisa (8-11-05)

[Mom to M&M]

Also Laura, last night she slept soundly until 4:30 (!) before waking for that bottle. She ate and was back to sleep a bit after 5 (because of her reflux I have to hold her upright and can't just lay her straight back down).

Do I still wake her at 8 and feed her even though she may not want to eat much? She normally doesn't eat as much already at this bottle? Or give her time to wake more fully - get her dressed, do some quiet activity, etc and then feed?

I also asked this new Q in EASY forum but wanted to give you this info.

Thanks again - I'll look back later today for your response!

[Diego's Mama]

Well, I actually think you're doing remarkably well.  Bottle-fed babies digest their milk more slowly, that's why you're finding her not ready to eat until four hours.  That's totally normal...

Frankly, I wouldn't change much.  BUT, you could try shortening the first nap.  Wake her at an hour and see if she transfers that sleep to  her afternoon nap.  Yes, maybe try the nap in the stroller/upright position in the afternoon and the morning nap in her crib. 

Considering she has reflux I think you need to continue with what works.  My second son has reflux too and the elevation is imprortant.  She's sleeping in her crib at night?

Also, the nighttime waking is clearly hunger, so continue on as you are.  She'll drop that when she's ready.

You're in a great groove.  You'll find that in the next few months she'll be able to handle awake time in general more easily.  It'll get easier, keep truckin', you're doing a FANTASTIC job.  Congratulation on some great mothering!!

[Mom to M&M]

Thanks again Laura - I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help and kind words.

So try today to make her first nap in the crib but wake her after maybe 1 or 1/2 hours? So today she got up at 8, maybe get her down at 9:15 and asleep at 9:30 but wake her at 11? Or try to keep her awake longer before the first nap, even if yawning? And if so, what do I do with her until next bottle is due at about noon? What if she is still tired and cranky when I wake her - just play with her and cheer her up? Or do I feed her early?

And if I get her up at say 11 from morning nap, when do I want her to start afternoon nap and how long would I like that one to be? Anything different with catnap? Any advice on where that should be? Stroller again? Swing?

Like I said - I have some trouble reading her tired cues since she yawns and rubs eyes a LOT.

And yes, she does sleep remarkably well in her crib at night. For some reason, the reflux bothers her less then - she eats dinner bottle great and sleeps fantastically then!

BTW, is it odd that she is starving for the dinner bottle after only 3 hours - sometimes sooner?

[Diego's Mama]

I would keep the morning nap at about an hour, maybe and hour and fifteen.  It's actually unlikely that it's the reflux that's bothering her for naps if she's sleeping so well at night.  Is she on medication?  When you say reflux, is this spitting up, or is she in pain?

If pain's not an issue, I personally would do all sleeps in her crib.  That's just me and that's based on Tracy's theory of 'start as you mean to go on.'  It's probably not *crucial*, but I do believe in being consistent.  This consistency, I must warn you, often means a baby who does not sleep well when out and about because they've learned to associate sleep with their bed. I'll leave the stroller vs. crib up to you... personal decision, really if it's not interfereing, which it seems not to be.

As for the bottles, I think you'll just have to play with things with her being on a four hour routine. It may mean she eats at times a bit off-tune from the classic, E-A-S-Y ... the key being don't feed her just before bed as she'll become reliant upon the bottle to fall asleep.  Even if you feed her a n hour after being awake, another twenty or thirty minutes before going down is fine.  You just have to find your way and as soon as you do, she'll flip it all upside down on you anyhow.  Heheheee..

It's very common for babies to eat more frequently in the evenings.  They're storing up calories for the nighttime.  Encourage her to do so.  Many mums clusterfeed in the evenings.  A breastfeeding mum may feed every two hours from four pm until bedtime.  In your situation, every three hours, or even 2.5 if she'll take it is dandy.

[Mom to M&M]

Hi again Laura!

She is in pain from it. She is currently on Pepcid but it only helps somewhat and we are seeing a specialist Monday. In general, it seems to bother her less at night - she sleeps better then, eats better then, etc. I don' t know why - maybe she's just more relaxed then.

I ended up letting her sleep almost 2 hours this morning because the reflux was definitely bothering her (she threw up clear bile and squealed - waking her twice during nap, so it wasn't very restful) but in general I will try to keep that nap under 1 1/2 hours. Is your reasoning for this that otherwise she is thinking it is an extension of nighttime sleep if too long?

But it seems that when I wake her up she is upset and still tired and only wants to either eat or sleep - not play. Should I just keep trying to do some activity with her and only feed her if she definitely seems hungry after 3 hours?

A few other questions:

1. How should I judge appropriate time to wind down and put her in for nap? She tends to yawn early but will still smile and play. Do I wait for other tired signs? Fussing? Try to extend her as much as possible? How do you know how far to push it?

2. How long should the second nap be? Say she wakes in the morning at 8 and goes back down at 9:45 and I let her sleep until 11 and feed her between 11:30-12. She'll likely want to go back to sleep around 12:30 as she'll have been up for 1 1/2 hours. Do I let her sleep up until the next bottle if she wants to - which might be as late as 4 on a 4 hour schedule? Or again wake her before it's time to feed (maybe after 2.5 hours)?

3. How long would the catnap ideally be? Usually I'm lucky if I can get her to go 45 minutes. But if she does go longer, again when should I wake her?

4. If she has a bottle between 3:30-4pm, and manages to take a cat nap for 45 minutes starting somewhere between 5 and 5:30, should I cluster feed her with just 2 ounces (her normal bottle is 6 ounces) when she wakes up to help make it till dinner time and relax her for some quiet activity until them? If I do, and if she wakes from this catnap around 6, won't that mess up her dinner bottle which is usually at 7? Or would I then push that back closer to 7:30?

5. How come she often wakes from jolts around 45 minutes in her crib but not in her car seat/stroller - even if totally motionless? Is this related to the reflux? In the crib does the reflux bother her more (flat, side sleeper) so when she jolts she notices it? Or is this not related? Maybe because she is more snug in car seat and there is less room to jolt?

I'd ideally like her bedtime to be 8pm and wake time anywhere between 7-8am. I should also point out that we're trying not to use a pacifier (unless absolutely necessary) but she can and does find her hands and she is not swaddled - she actually sleeps worse when she is - she gets too upset from it and can't find her hands and freaks out.

Right now she is sleeping in car seat/stroller - hopefully she can get some rest in - she had a rough bottle and was in a lot of pain before it. But in general, I do prefer that one nap a day NOT be in her crib if possible (even when pain isn't an issue) as I have to be out and about a lot and would like her to be able to nap in stroller or elsewhere if necessary.

Sorry for so many questions. I look forward to figuring the rest of this out with you. Thanks again!

Karen and Marisa (11 weeks today)

[Diego's Mama]

have a baby on my lap, so will write more later, but don't rule out milk protein intolerance..........

my youngest still is at 15 mos.

[Meg's Mom]

Sorry to jump in on your thread, but Laura I am interested to know how you can tell if a LO has milk protein intolerance?  I suspect my dd has an allergy of some sort and doc hasn't been that helpful other than to put her on meds  :?

Thanks

[Mom to M&M]

Take your time Laura, thanks. BTW - Emilio is adorable! Do you have a picture of Diego too?

And yes, I am definitely suspecting a milk issue. She's already on Alimentum but I've heard that only 3 out of 5 kids respond to it - the other 2 still react to the milk proteins in it (even though they are broken down).

I definitely plan to ask the specialist about that Monday morning when we go. She's had a really rough day with the reflux - a lot of arching, twisting, squealing and puking. My poor girl...

Despite that, the new schedule seems to be working well. She took a 2-hour (broken up and restless because of jolts and reflux, I will normally make this 1.5 hour or less) nap in crib this morning, a 2.5 hour one in car seat/stroller this afternoon and I'm about to wake her up from a one-hour catnap (carseat) now. But I definitely will look for your answers to my questions. I know I need to get her reflux under control before we can really sleep train, etc - but I want to have a plan in place and do it as best I can before then.

Talk soon.

[Mom to M&M]

Michele - here is a good site (I learned about it from infantreflux.org):
http://www.disa.com.au

Go to the left on the menu and click on food intolerant allergic baby.

Symptoms include (most babies will not show all):

Aggravation of reflux
Wind
Reflux
Vomiting
Colic
Discomfort
Irritability
Obstructive nasal symptoms / blocked nose
Loose stools, mucus in stools
Constipation, or struggling to pass bowel motions.
Disturbance of sleep due to discomfort
Distress
Rashes

Marisa has rashes, struggling to pass bowel movements, loose mucousy stools, reflux, congestion and more.

HTH
Karen

[CW]

Sorry to jump in, but I wanted to mention something that worked for us.  My DS was thought to have reflux, we had him on zantec for months.  But what finally helped was a change in formula to Nestle Good Starts.  We tried so many others, soy, nutramigen, etc.  But this seemed to do the trick.  I've heard this from so many moms.  And even our pediatrician said for some reason this formula just works.  Not sure what you are using and if you're willing to change.