Author Topic: Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem  (Read 6813 times)

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2005, 22:39:11 pm »
Hi there. Good Start was a nightmare for us. Second formula we tried (after regular Similac). It worked for about 2 weeks - then reflux, rashes, etc got out of control. It is a good formula, but if the baby has a true milk intolerance it won't work for them.
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2005, 23:17:12 pm »
Please, no one be sorry for jumping in.  All are welcome!!

I'll write in detail about my experience with Emilio, reflux, milk protein intolerance and sleep training in him detail tonight after my boys are in bed. 

E's cutting three molars and is having a hard time,,,, grumpy and needs to get to bed.  I need a break!

heheeeeeee.....

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2005, 23:30:54 pm »
I'm sorry to hear that Laura - hugs to you and Emilio (and the rest of the fam of course).

Just had a really scary experience - she was choking right before dinner (3 hours after last bottle). Most have been food and/or acid stuck and she was squealing and turning red and gurgling and coughing. I gave her some gripe water to force whatever it was down and helped her burp. She seems fine now - eating with Dad. Hate this reflux. My poor angel...
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2005, 01:56:52 am »
Copying and pasting your post to answer:

She is in pain from it. She is currently on Pepcid but it only helps somewhat and we are seeing a specialist Monday. In general, it seems to bother her less at night - she sleeps better then, eats better then, etc. I don' t know why - maybe she's just more relaxed then.

*** Well, with significan reflux, this changes things quite a bit.  Tracy always says you need to fix any medical issues before going ahead with sleep training.  So, my advice is if she's comfy and not in reflux pain, forge ahead, if she's having reflux trouble at any point, regroup, fix the problem, then resume the sleep training. 

*** Emilio takes Prevacid solutab.  I highly recommend it.  I've read that many reflux babies sleep well at night out of sheer exhaustion from the reflux affecting their sleep during the day, but she's napping well, so that seems like it's not an issue, thankfully.  I think you may just be lucky with a good sleeper!! YEA!  She may very well be more relaxed at night, just go with it!

I ended up letting her sleep almost 2 hours this morning because the reflux was definitely bothering her (she threw up clear bile and squealed - waking her twice during nap, so it wasn't very restful) but in general I will try to keep that nap under 1 1/2 hours. Is your reasoning for this that otherwise she is thinking it is an extension of nighttime sleep if too long?

*** My reasoning is that if you transfer the longer sleep to the afternoon she'll be more rested toward the evening, rather than stockpiling all her long sleeps in the morning and becoming more and more tired with shorter naps as the day wears on.  Babies at this age are easily overstimulated.  Please make adjustments as you need to in order to accomodate her reflux just as you did today.  Remember, whispering is about being flexible.

But it seems that when I wake her up she is upset and still tired and only wants to either eat or sleep - not play. Should I just keep trying to do some activity with her and only feed her if she definitely seems hungry after 3 hours?

*** Maybe try cutting that nap back in intervals, say chopping it by fifteen minutes every few days so she gradually becomes accustomed to it.  Yes, I'd save the feed for when she's truly hungry. It's very easy to mistake hunger for boredom, overstimulation, or simple grumpyness.  Try a swing if she's cranky. That was very lulling for both of my boys.

A few other questions:

1. How should I judge appropriate time to wind down and put her in for nap? She tends to yawn early but will still smile and play. Do I wait for other tired signs? Fussing? Try to extend her as much as possible? How do you know how far to push it?

*** Wind down can be about five or ten minutes of quiet play on your bed, swaddle, a few moments of snuggling then a few moments of patting in the crib. It's just a way of transitioning from activity time to sleep time rather than just hucking them in their bed.  ;)

2. How long should the second nap be? Say she wakes in the morning at 8 and goes back down at 9:45 and I let her sleep until 11 and feed her between 11:30-12. She'll likely want to go back to sleep around 12:30 as she'll have been up for 1 1/2 hours. Do I let her sleep up until the next bottle if she wants to - which might be as late as 4 on a 4 hour schedule? Or again wake her before it's time to feed (maybe after 2.5 hours)?

*** I think I'd let her sleep as long as she wants, but never longer than 2.5/3.0 hours or you'll rob nighttime sleep.   You can always cluster feed from that point on.  Just aim to get the longer nap later in the day to help with the crankies and work the feeds around it.

3. How long would the catnap ideally be? Usually I'm lucky if I can get her to go 45 minutes. But if she does go longer, again when should I wake her?

*** Oh, depends. Emilio always needed a good two hours between last nap and bedtime.  I still gauge it that way -- time between naps and before bed.  Our catnaps lasted about thirty mintues with me waking him (and upsetting him doing so!!) or else his nighttime sleep would suffer.
 
4. If she has a bottle between 3:30-4pm, and manages to take a cat nap for 45 minutes starting somewhere between 5 and 5:30, should I cluster feed her with just 2 ounces (her normal bottle is 6 ounces) when she wakes up to help make it till dinner time and relax her for some quiet activity until them? If I do, and if she wakes from this catnap around 6, won't that mess up her dinner bottle which is usually at 7? Or would I then push that back closer to 7:30?

*** I think you just have to experiment.  No sense in breaking up a bottle into two ounce increments if she takes the same total of ounces in the evening.  Clusterfeeding ideally adds more milk.  I wouldn't sweat it too much.  If it seems like it won't work out, go with the flow. She's already sleeping beautifully at night.  Maybe best not to make too many changes at once.

5. How come she often wakes from jolts around 45 minutes in her crib but not in her car seat/stroller - even if totally motionless? Is this related to the reflux? In the crib does the reflux bother her more (flat, side sleeper) so when she jolts she notices it? Or is this not related? Maybe because she is more snug in car seat and there is less room to jolt?

*** Because a carseat/stroller is enclosed and wraps around her snuggly.  Is she on her back?  Tried a sleep positioner?  She'll grow out of these jolts somewhere around four months. 

I'd ideally like her bedtime to be 8pm and wake time anywhere between 7-8am. I should also point out that we're trying not to use a pacifier (unless absolutely necessary) but she can and does find her hands and she is not swaddled - she actually sleeps worse when she is - she gets too upset from it and can't find her hands and freaks out.

*** I'd let her dictate the bedtime when she's ready.  Don't be afraid to adjust it later/bit earlier depending on how her day's gone... flexible, flexible, flexible.  Ditch the pacifier if she prefers her hands.  Hands will pay off in the long run.  :)  Thumb suckers make nightwakings muuuuuch easier as baby can soothe on their own much sooner than with a paci.

Right now she is sleeping in car seat/stroller - hopefully she can get some rest in - she had a rough bottle and was in a lot of pain before it. But in general, I do prefer that one nap a day NOT be in her crib if possible (even when pain isn't an issue) as I have to be out and about a lot and would like her to be able to nap in stroller or elsewhere if necessary. 

*** Then you have your answer on that one.

:):):)

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2005, 02:01:09 am »
Ohhh, that sounds so scary -- the choking!! :(

I have a friend who had to use a prescription formula.  The problem with Alimentum and Nutramigen is they're still cow's milk based.  I breastfed Emilio and supplemented some with Nutramigen and it still bothered him.

We're still on Prevacid at fifteen months and I'm going to try to wean him in the next month or so, but am dreading it.  He also had a soy protein intolerance until one year old.  There is info on MSPI (milk, soy protein intolerance) in the Food Allergies forum.

MPI can irritate reflux and make it worse.  I think this was very much the case for Emilio. 

Glad to hear you're going to a specialist.  Don't waste any time with your pediatrician.  They'll likely give you the standard answer of Zantac, which is pretty much useless.  GI specialist, hopefully on recommendation from a friend, or other, is most helpful.

:)

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2005, 02:02:26 am »
Michelle,

Are you breastfeeding?  If so, do a complete elimination diet taking out all milk and soy and see if it helps.  I was on elimination diet for eleven months with E, not that bad at all, especially if you cook a lot.

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2005, 02:45:41 am »
Thanks again Laura!

Yea, I have a feeling we might be going the prescription formula (Neocare or Elecare) route. And honestly, I'd almost be relieved to hear it's largely from a milk intolerance/allergy - so maybe easier to treat? I know the prescription formula is expensive but would be well worth it to me if it would help.

Yea - all ped did was Zantac/Pepcid and Alimentum. We got the specialist actually from New York Magazine. We live in NYC and this guy was listed as one of the best pediatric gastro docs in New York, AND takes our insurance AND lists GERD as one of his specialties. So I have high hopes. Appointment is Monday morning. It was so scary - the choking - first time it's been that extreme. I just want to hold her all night but she'd never let me (she's already a pretty independent sleeper!) She just had a rough day all around - a lot of puking and arching and squealing and tough time eating. She was hungry and wanted to eat and would finish most of her bottles (6-6.5 ounces) but it took forever with a lot of struggle for her while refluxing...

As for the sleep and nap stuff:

- Yea, the pacifier is "gone" - well around in case of emergency I guess, but that is it. I really want to avoid it - one less habit to have to break later.
- She sleeps on her side in positioner and tends to suck her hands and cuddle with her lovey (burp cloth) - this works great!
- How do I deal with jolts in crib naps for now? Try to go in before they happen and apply gentle pressure on her leg and arm? What if she does wake? Pat and shush seems to have no effect on her...
- My question about wind down time before wasn't really about what to do to wind down - but more about how to know when it's time to put her down for a nap. Do I have to act on first yawn? Because she often yawns really early on... sometimes I think she's still waking from an earlier nap!
- How do I know if she's really hungry? Like today when I woke her from first nap, she was burrowing into my shoulder and still trying to sleep. Swinging didn't work and neither did her mobile. When I did offer the bottle she seemed hungry but she wasn't doing the cough cough cry yet or rooting really... Overnight she does the cough cough cry - but it's also ben 8+ hours lately at that point!

Reflux allowing, my goal will be to make the first nap 1.5 hours, the second 2-2.5 and the catnap 1 hour. To be honest, it doesn't seem the catnap has much effect on her nighttime sleep. She gets crazed if she doesn't take one but if she takes none, a short one or a long one she seems to sleep same at night.

Thanks again. Hope Emilio and his molars are doing ok and that you all get some rest!
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2005, 03:03:10 am »
Oops - forgot two questions:

- How come the jolts come at about 40-50 mins during crib naps but not at night? Or do they come at night but just don't wake her then?

- Lately she has been sleeping until 3:30-4:30 overnight for first waking (incredible!). Her wake time is 8am ish - although I don't mind pushing that to 8:30 since it will change an hour earlier (therefore 7:30) after this weeend. My Q is - if she starts not waking till 5am or later and takes a full bottle then, do I feed her next bottle upon waking for the day or do some quiet activity until she seems definitely hungry? (and if so, what should I use as hunger cues?)
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2005, 03:04:18 am »
Hi

No longer BF'ing, now on whole milk.  But dd has a constent running nose and the week we moved her to whole milk she had a few expisodes of a complete rash on her face (eye swelling shut, running nose, reddness).

Doc said it isn't milk as i supplemented BF w/ milk based formula, so maybe i am wrong...but thought i would run it by you all?

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2005, 13:32:10 pm »
Which milk-based formula was it? Maybe the proteins in the whole milk are harder for her to digest?

You can ask them to do a stool sample to see if she has blood in her stool - a sign of milk intolerance...
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2005, 15:52:06 pm »
Kirkland formula - good suggestion, i'll ask for that...thanks!

Hope your LO is having a good day.

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2005, 16:51:53 pm »
Glad to help - let me know what they say about the stool sample

Actually, we are having a horrible day - going the GI specialist in 30 minutes as she's been choking and aspirating and wheezing on top of refluxing...  :cry:
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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2005, 17:33:15 pm »
ohhh poor wee soul - but so glad that the GI appt is today then!

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2005, 17:56:48 pm »
Marisa's Mom, let us know how the appt. goes. 

As for the 40 minutes jolt, some moms go in a few minutes before and gently hold their arms to help them pass into the next sleep cycle.

Meg's Mom, I'll take her off all dairy for a good few weeks and see how she does.  A true dairy free diet needs to be free of casein and other things -- food allergy forum has info.  Emilio has soy and enriched rice milk.  He was only able to tolerate any soy a bit after a year, he was intolerant to that too for a long time.  Many babies who are intolerant to milk are also intolerant to soy.  I think my GI said something like 60-ish%!

Looking for pics of D&E to post.  My digital camera's off at the shop so mostly using video camera now.

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Pls Help - 11 Week Old with 45 Min Nap Problem
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2005, 18:26:24 pm »
Pics -Emilio Jose