6 week

[Deb_in_oz]

hi

firstly you asked about feeding every 4 hours - at 6 weeks i woudl aim for 3 (or less sometimes if BF)

stick with the swaddle as it can really help in the first 3 months as they learn to nap better

most important thing is to be consistent so she starts to learn what will happen - so when you are trying to shh/pat her dont keep picking her up -better to keep her in the bed and just continue and make sure your shhing is a high volume (like a running tap) and you are patting firmly and rhythmically (see the sleep interview to get really good descriptions)

i think the idea of sleeping with her bedding is a good one or you can just lay something of yours(a t shirt or your pillowcase) under her sheet. this can be reassuring as she will feel like you are there with her even thoughshe will be in her own bed.


i will have to come back later and have another look through your posts and see if i can help more.  got to go take care of my 2 

[Katet]

Currently I have to say that because she feeds to sleep then this is a problem, I know my wife might be reluctant to break this as she will fear that Phoebe just wont go to sleep full stop (indeed she has cried for 15 minutes whilst trying other things), but I guess we need to put some activity in between her feeding and going to sleep.

We also tend to have her downstairs when she is feeding, should we go upstairs or should we feed her downstairs then take her up to her room, where its nice and dark and quiet to do the four S?

I guess we also need to try and do an EASY plan, the question is at 6 weeks should we be going for a three hour easy plan or four? Say we choose four and she feeds for 45m, then plays 45m, then she should sleep 2.5 hours (including everything), what do you do after 2.5 hours and she is still asleep? What if she wants more feeding?

Firstly you would be best to go on a 3 or even 2.5 hour EASY as 4 hour is approriate for 4months + (& bf babies may never get to a total 4 hour EASY) doing 3 hour EASY can mean doing anything from 2.5 to 3.5 on occasions, so if your lo is obviously hungry early you would feed. or let her sleep a bit longer.

Secondly Awake time for a 6 week old can be as little as 45mins... so that really can just be feed & nappy change. You may get 5-10mins "play time" in sometimes. But you really don't want your lo to be up longer than 1 hour & so you should start a wind down after  about 45mins... just to give you an idea keeping her up even 1.25 hours is the equivalent of an adult staying awake about 36 hours, so if you only got 2- 4 hours sleep then were up for 36 hours & then got 2-4 hours sleep & that repeated for a week or 2 you could imagine what it is like for Phoebe.

Now I have been where your dw is & feeding to sleep does work for somepeople BUT what it really is doing is an oxytocin induced (chemical) sleep, so once that wears off she will wake up. Do you have a rocking chair, as that is a great way to "help" get her ready for sleep.

When you change the routine to Eat Activity (at this age just a nappy change & a cuddle is usually all they can cope with) Sleep IT WILL cause crying & there WILL be times it can take up to an hour to get her off (It just took me an hour with my 5.5mo as he was very overtired). The thing is to act early not late.

I also agree with swaddling...I have always used the Aussie swaddle & with 2 very big boys, I used a cot sheet so they didn't break free.

It is not going to be an easy road as I hate the crying too... but the longer you leave it the harder it will be. Also I think if you even remotely suspect PPD, I would follow up on it. I know for me being diagnoses with PPD was almost a blessing as it opened up new support networks that helped me greatly.

Your wife is doing a great job & is lucky to have such a supportive husband... both of you need to relax a bit & enjoy your lo too & if you can give her a back massage or she takes a long bath, that can only help. The more relaxed you try to be the better it is for little Phoebe... 3 deep breaths repeat many times through out the day as often as possible, the more relaxed you are the more Phoebe will relax & know you are in control.

[Deb_in_oz]

ok - nothing much  left for me to say right now - kate said everything and very clearly!!

to echo my earlier message - consistency will help you get through it - you just need to pick what course you want to take and stick to it and make sure you are comfortable with whatever choices you make...

[cymonguk]

Thanks for the replies.

I think tonight I will try and get her through this, and hopefully I can take wednesday off work to help for a full day..

I know in theory I should have carried on last night, but Karen and Phoebe were so tired I had to take a view that them getting some sleep was better than nothing.

Tonight I can be home earlier and will make more effort. It was working to some degree last night, however when she woke up in her crib she was screaming, a couple of times i could calm her back down with shhing and she would do the whole wah,wah, wah, thing and go quiet again, but when she screamed I just felt I needed to pick her up, I will try to leave her longer next time 

I have to say Karen did well last night to leave me to it, I know that was hard for her, but she was impressed when she could see Phoebe go to sleep in the crib on her own, so I think she can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

As a side point why are people such a***s? My MIL phoned last night and spent an hour telling my wife "she shouldnt be sleeping with you", "she shouldnt be feeding to sleep", "babies are supposed to cry you know", so my wife ended up crying, does she not think we know this? Karen was trying to explain this, and she obviously wasnt listening, because Karen kept saying "Yes but how do we get to that??".If you have bugger all positive to say, say nothing... RANT OVER 

[Deb_in_oz]

i don't know enough about your wife's relationship with her mother, but i do know that she needs support at this time and if anyone else calls and has negative cr@p to dump on either of you can i suggest you cut them short (including your parents) with a "thanks for the suggestions i think i hear DW/DH calling me i will have to sut you short right now.  love you - bye"     it will save your sanity later and avoid any arguments (unless you want to tell them specifically that they are not being helpful  :wink: )

you said "when she woke up in her crib" - did you mean that she fell asleep on you/nursing and then was transfered?  that is a comon response if that was the case - they come into light sleep and realize they are not where they were last.  that's why it is good to even gently rouse her as you are putting her down - just enough for her to stir awake gently and then say "night night"

[cymonguk]

No i know, when Karen was talking to her I was trying to make this point by mouthing to her "phoebe needs you, tell her you will speak to her later", Phoebe didnt need her but that wasnt the point. Its a difficult relationship in many ways:

1) Karens Dad died a couple of years ago, really the only person her mum speaks to on a weekly basis is Karen, as her sister doesnt. Conversely her sister is the blue eyed girl, because of the grandsons she has, who can do no wrong.

2) Everyone has always seemed to expect Karen to fail at things (like at school, and then they expected her to be pregnant young (yet her sister did at 15), and before we had the baby MIL and sister would say "oh it will be different when you have one, then you'll see"), I just feel like shouting sod off down the phone!! Over time I have tried to help her see that she isnt a failure and before she became pregnant she had run two businesses, been a manager at some of the biggest nurseries, and then was a nanny for older kids, and then she gets this kind of cr@p 

Fortunately my Mum and Dad are pretty good, they had my only brother really late (Im 15 years older than him), so they remember more what it is like, and are really understanding when we are there and she is crying, they dont criticise at all, (even if they thought we were wrong I dont think they would say anything, they know its not much fun)

When I say she cried when we put her down she was awake and fell to sleep on her own (hurray!!), however she would wake up a few minutes later I guess as she passed through the first phase, and then she nodded back off, then woke up with the gentle wah, wah thing and nodded off, but then after a bit she woke up screaming, and the shhhing didnt seem to help, although i didnt do it very long? So she would go down on her own and fall asleep which is a big step in my eyes, as I was thinking even that wasnt possible. Thats why I asked whether we might be better for one night getting her used to sleeping without feeding, or whether just to take the plunge?

[cymonguk]

My MIL is coming round this evening apparently how do I stop myself from throttling her if she says anything?

[Deb_in_oz]

going to sleep on her own is a huge step!! tell your wife (and yourself) to be proud that you are doing a great job.  i wasn't feeding to sleep and my dd2 always was in her own bed, but we still had enormous problems the first 8 weeks (and only slightly better for the next 2 months afetr that) as she was spirited and we could not get her to sleep  :cry:  I ended up with PPD so i think it os important as Kate mentioned that your wife feel supported and that she is not failing (i even stopped breastfeeding at 3 mo thinking something must be wrong with my supply as she did not seem satisfied - i assumed it was me and had lost all confidence at that point.  it is important that your wife (and you) feel empowered and get to know what Phoebe needs - it takes a lot of effort to stop and listen and observe her but it will get easier over time.

as far as MIL - 2 ideas come to mind - 1) set up a phrase you and karen can say if you need to get away from MIL or rescue the other person and 2) tell yourself to take deep breaths and be thankful that she is a visitor and not living with you - amazingly you can agree with her/nod/"oh really" etc for the duration of the visit and then carry on exactly as planned - she does not feel hurt and you do not have to take anything she says on board if it goes against what you are thinking.

although your parents remember what it was like because your brother was a late addition, most grandparents only remember their "angels" who slept through the night easily and napped in the middle of a booming marching band (that one came from my own grandmother  :roll: ) but i can guarantee you they were just as clueless when they got their bundles of joy home! i am a 2nd time mom and found it harder this time for so many reasons, but mostly because olivia was totally diffeent than alex and almost all my knowledge became useless but everyone expects 2nd time moms to know what they are doing...

keep up the good work you will do great!

[cymonguk]

Thanks for the ideas with the MIL, she means well Im sure but I cant guarantee she will walk out of the house

Both me and my brother were awful babies until we were about 2, so I guess some of this is payback!! I was awake every two hours to be fed, and wouldnt sleep (and still only sleep 5 hours now), my grandma told my Dad my brother was his payback so its obviously a genetic thing lol..

I tried to encourage her after her bad day yesterday , and said that I didnt think I would have coped as well as she did, and that she should be happy about how she handled a really bad day, and we had a good hug and stuff, hopefully we can get Phoebe more used to sleeping tonight without Mummy feeding her, and I will try to get her down to sleep.

A quick question though - If we try getting her to sleep on her own and she is up and down like last night, and we put in a 3 hr EASY, then 2 hours after she has been fed she will be due to be woken up, if it has taken an hour to get her off what do we do?

[cymonguk]

Health visitor has just left our house she said:

1) Its ok to co sleep as long as you protect baby with pillows, etc  :?
2) Its fine that she doesnt sleep much during the day..  :shock:
3) My wife should put in her in the cot while she has a shower, even if she is crying.  :shock:
4) It might be that she just likes being held all the time, all babies are different  :shock:

So now my wife is confused, and Im not sure how things are going to go tonight... oh well...

[cymonguk]

My wife has decided that she likes the ideas suggested by the health visitor, I dont want to argue the point so I guess Id better support and hope we can sort the problems out later. (Also suggested letting her cry to sleep)

[Katet]

Simon,
I'm sorry to hear that your wife is choosing to follow the HV advice & that it obviously goes against your better judgement. I think you are right you need to support her in it, but if you believe in BW don't give up on it but guide her to an understanding that leaving a a baby to cry is not really best. Unfortunately many health professionals still believe in the "classic" Victorian" Era methods as they will always work EVENTUALLY...I mean a baby has to be exhausted enough to sleep sometime, that doesn't mean it is best for the baby :cry:

We are all here to support you, but at the end of the day the HV is the face your wife sees & we BW's are only people she gets second hand.

[cymonguk]

what should i do when, as will probably happen in the next week, my wife phones me at work to say she hasnt slept all day, and she is sobbing down the phone? Do I say stick with the hv advice?  :?

Im also worried that sooner or later our relationship is going to break, as i am only getting about 4-5 hours sleep a day, but this is broken, when i used to sleep 5 hours a day it was solid 5 hours which was enough. 

[Deb_in_oz]

A quick question though - If we try getting her to sleep on her own and she is up and down like last night, and we put in a 3 hr EASY, then 2 hours after she has been fed she will be due to be woken up, if it has taken an hour to get her off what do we do?

you have 2 ways of going and i think kate will have an opinion on this one:
 let her finish a sleep cycle (they are roughly 40-45 min) so if she has been asleep 1hr and is "due a feed" let her go another 1/2 hr so she has slept 2 full cycles
OR - wake her so that she is feeding enough in the day for the calories and the BF supply stimulation.

for me it would depend on how the day was going - if she has not napped well in the morning and then she successfully transitions beyond 1 sleep cycle i would personally let her get the naptime in as it will reduce the chances of her being overtired for the next cycle (and it gives more "y" time to gan the strength to carry on...)


about the HV - personally i disagree with what she says and i woudl not encourage it, but i do not have to deal with the regualr visits from the HV and your wife will  :wink:  and i know that there are mixed reports on them (i assume you are in UK) so think your wife needs to understand that what they say is not gospel and can be outdated info. Babies definitely need to nap during the day - this daytime sleep gets them rested enough to have good quality overnight sleep (sleep begets sleep) so i strongly go against the HV 2nd point. the body needs to rest and also brain development / neuron connectios take place during sleep...

if you want to get on track with BW we will help you and Karen as much as we can - why don't we break it down a little and work on 1 or 2 things that Karen woudl be comfortable with...

i re-read the other posts in the thread and was wonderig about the length of time Phoebe spends on a feed - is she actively nursing for an hour ?? if the fact that she feeds so long leaves little time to get her changed and to bed before she is overtired i would work on ending the feed when she is no longer actively feeding - you can tell when she is actually drinking and swallowing vs. sucking for comfort and not swallowing anything.

if you want to give Karen a bit to read for encouragement about getting a spirited non-napper on a routine you can share my story which is at the beginning of the "support group for moms of spirited babies" thread.  it was a steady (but slow) path of improvement once i was able to get olivia down for naps before she was overtired.

also - do you have the first BW book?  there is some great info in there that i can direct you to - i think it is important to have the first book to implement EASY and get to know Phoebe's cues and why things happen...

[cymonguk]

I have read the first book, but Karen has read the first chapters, she says she just doesnt get the time to read it, which I guess is sort of a perpetuating cycle.

Thanks for the advice and if/when Karen wants to try something else other than what the HV advises then we will have to sort it then.

Karen also said she is not happy with Phoebe going to sleep in her swaddle as "she might rollover during her sleep, and then she cant get back, where as with the sleep bag her arms are out", to be honest I dont want to argue about it, I know that Phoebe might suffer from some of these things but its not me who is at home all day with her, so its easy for me to say. The BW methods can only work if Karen decides she wants to use them.

Yesterday Phoebe had a better day (maybe because she was so knackered), and slept for 4 hours during the day (on Karen tho), but didnt sleep at all from 5-9pm, therefore I think Karen is hoping that Phoebe will sort herself out.

I think the issue maybe that she felt such a failure the other day, that when the HV came and told her she was doing everything right and nothing needed changing other than her attitude to the baby, this made her feel better (which is good). However the HV then used this to suggest that Karens attitude to the crying needed to change and the baby wouldnt suffer from being allowed to cry, either whilst Karen was doing other things (such as showering, etc), or whilst going to sleep (which is secondary reinforced by her mother who "let her and her sister cry to sleep").

At the moment Im confused about what to do, part of me knows by carrying on as is, things probably wont get better, and if we allow her to cry to sleep/cry whilst doing other things we are going to create bigger problems later.


To answer your questions anyway:

Yes she will feed for 45 mins-1hr then we will wind her (as well as between if she gets fidgety), then she will sit with one of as staring/smiling/cooing at the bannister or radiator usually , then she gets grumpy and Karen takes her back and feeds to sleep, so we know what is feeding and what is comfort. Obviously this means that Karen cannot move as then as she passes through her sleep periods she realises mummy isnt their and wakes up. But the HV told her this is OK.



I actually agree with the HV in some ways in that if those methods work for you thats fine (in the same way Tracey said it), but my issue was that the HV hasnt picked up on the fact that it doesnt work for her, especially on the bad days. It was more annoying because before the HV turned up, we had decided to make the change, and I was booking a holiday to help with the first day.


Again thanks for the advice, I will have to try and work with this for now and hope I can avoid too many problems.