6 week

[Deb_in_oz]

good luck - i understand where you are coming from - and i also understand that the HV telling her everything is OK undermined where you were headed.  when/if you want to try something different later we will be here for you - feel free to send me a PM and we can work on some things that can help you.

i know you and Karen are both tired and stressed out - try to remember that you need to stick together and get through this...try to focus on any positive developments and small gains you make - as Karen's confidence grows she will be able to trust her instinct (instead of hearing the HV or her mother's voices in her head)

Please keep an eye on Karen for any signs of PPD - there is some good info available on that board (i am a moderator there so again, feel free to PM me if needed)

[Katet]

Simon, Deb has given great info & we both have had our share of difficulties getting babies to sleep & I know I can speak for us both, that we can walk you through this.

what should i do when, as will probably happen in the next week, my wife phones me at work to say she hasnt slept all day, and she is sobbing down the phone? Do I say stick with the hv advice?  :?

Im also worried that sooner or later our relationship is going to break, as i am only getting about 4-5 hours sleep a day, but this is broken, when i used to sleep 5 hours a day it was solid 5 hours which was enough. 

I would have to say you as the breadwinner, need to draw a line at the point where your needs come into play so if your heart says that BW is the better way to go then you need her to understand that is how you feel. You have needs & I think as you need to go to work each day you might need to look after your sleep needs a little more.

Now I have to agree the HV advice - well it sucks... babies need to sleep & feed & fill nappies in their first weeks of life...babies that are awake for long periods and upset are either sick or over tired... end of story...an over tired baby makes for a VERY UNHAPPY Family - Trust me I have been where you are & it can only get worse. Yes she wants to be held, because she feels comforted & we all want to be comforted when we are overtired. On the rare occasion my ds#2 is overtired (bless him) he always wants to be held & my first who spent about 6 weeks sleeping next to no time always wanted to be held & would screem the house down the moment he was put down, when his sleep issues were dealt with he was happy on the floor for quite long periods of time

I do agree baby sleeping in your bed is ok BUT only if both people agree & maybe if your wife wants that, you amybe need to consider sleeping somewhere else to get the sleep you need?

I have to support Deb in that when Phoebe feeds if her sucking slows down your wife should stop the feed... she is sucking for comfort & to get to sleep & that will add to the cycle.

One thing I have suggested with other people is to sort of roll play a situation...eg with a partner suggesting Cry it out & one partner being against... when the pro CIO partner asks for help the other partner ignores, ignores etc... when asked why they are ignoring... they would reply...just showing you what it would feel like if we ignored the babies crys.

So if all this was me - well - I think I'd make it clear I was not comfortable with the HV advice & while I would be willing to support her to a point if things havn't improved in x amount of time, then I am not able to support anylonger & that we need to consider the methods I previously proposed.

HTH

[cymonguk]

At what stage are some of these things going to become huge problems, that are impossible/difficult to reverse?

[Katet]

Nothing really is impossible to reverse, but the longer it goes on the harder it is & the more likely you are to "accept" certain things, as the effort needed to change them is just beyond you from the state of exhaustion you are in... which for me is my 2 yo hardly ever sleeping through the night until about 2 months ago. Yes I had a newborn waking 2-4 times & a 22mo waking 2-4 times & had had about 1/2 dozen unbroken nights sleep in 2 years

[cymonguk]

:shock:  :shock:  :shock:

2 years

[Deb_in_oz]

ok Kate now you have probably gone and caused a man to have a heart attack  :lol:

[Katet]

It does sound worse than it is... I mostly got at least 4-5 hours sleep in one go & wakeups were mostly under 2mins &  for me a full night sleep is about 9-10 hours, also if the truth be told there were lots of extenuating circumstances early in my ds#1 life & I didn't do BW & ds has a dummy addiction too that I never could get rid of & then I got pregant again so I just lived with it  :? ... but the point is if you get things going well early the effort is less than later & when you have a good routine & things go a bit pear shaped you have something to fall back on... so the longer you leave the harder it gets

[cymonguk]

OK Im still here... 

I guess I will just have to try and help influence where I can, I suppose I can say that I dont think its my way of doing it, and maybe I can try and implement some bits where possible.

[KellyC]

Hi there

Firstly can I say what a wonderfully supportive father you're being - my DH mainly leaves me to it (but I'm a control freak so happier that way!).

Health Visitors only seem to dish out standard old-fashioned advice - whenever my sister has asked for help with her DS's sleeping they've suggested CIO.  It seems to be the only thing they can suggest and none of mine seem to even have children of their own!

My DS, Zander, is 10 weeks old.  For the first couple of weeks we tried to follow a 3 hour EASY routine but it was too soon so I just made sure I stuck to the sequence of events - EAS - and ignored the time.  This involved firstly trying really hard to make sure he didn't fall asleep whilst feeding - there are some tips in the book on this but if stroking his back, head, cheek, talking to him etc. fail then try changing half way through or just placing the baby on the changing mat - it's cold so wakes them up!  I'm so pleased Zander doesn't fall asleep whilst feeding, it really didn't take him long to understand that that wasn't the way!  Secondly, activity was virtually non-existent - change of nappy, sitting on my lap for a chat or a little song and then he was yawning and tired.  At this point I'd swaddle him, give him a dummy (wonderful in these first few weeks and this week he's started using it only to calm down and then spits it out so hopefully won't be a big issue to remove in a couple of months), hold him against me shielding his eyes, listen to five minutes of lullabys, say night night and put him down to sleep (usually breathing heavily and very sleepy by now).  Even at 10 weeks old Zander still only stays awake about an hour - sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less but I think it's more important to try and see your baby's cues rather than stick to a timed schedule.

It's still very early for Phoebe and some of these things take a little while to sink in for them, but they know nothing when they're born and we have to teach them.  Some people have using crying it out and it has worked for them but I don't want to teach my baby that if he cries I might or I might not respond to whatever he wants.  Of course, to be able to get on with my life he's sometimes in his bed and not happy, say whilst I'm having a shower, but I'm there soon enough and not leaving him to cry for hours!

Good luck - you're both doing a great job and time flies during the first few weeks so before long you'll have forgotten how stressful this is at the moment!

Keep in touch
Kelly

[cymonguk]

Its odd really before I heard of BW about a year ago, I was from the CIO camp, and believed they should cry otherwise you were spoiling them. It was Karen who introduced me to the BW TV program, and asked me to buy the books!

Unfortunately both of us are control freaks, so its a bit of a stand off with anything in our house, and I have to say it isnt much of a surprise that dd is somewhat spirited!

Interestingly we were watching the other UK kids program (cant remember its name with the dark haired psychologist), and the children on there were sleeping in their parents bed at 1 year old, 3 and 7, Karen turned and looked at me, she began to say how she didnt agree with it I think, then realised how it might sound with Phoebe in with us. Im sure she knows that what we are doing isnt helping, but Im not sure why she doesnt want to change anything at the moment. I think its this that I need to work out, and then I might be able to determine whats actually causing the resistance, and we can break down those barriers (maybe she is worried about something in the BW methods).

To be honest I darent suggest leaving the bed right now, as she might see it as a form of emotional blackmail, which it isnt, so I will give it a few weeks and see where we are, sooner or later Im going to end up sleeping on my desk  . My wife has suggested going to bed earlier but the issue is not that I am not in my bed sleeping, its when I am in bed I cant sleep properly.

A couple of times I have slept on the sofa a couple of hours before going to bed (when karen and phoebe have gone to bed first), to get some deep sleep in.

[Mom2katiebug]

Just wanted to chime in again and say that I think it's wonderful that you are such a supportive husband and remind you to trust your instincts.  All of the advice here is wonderful (I've benefited from these message boards myself), but both you and your wife need to trust your instincts.  You guys are "in the moment" with Phoebe and are the best to determine what she needs, how she is comforted, when each of you need a sanity break, etc.

[cymonguk]

Thanks for all the thoughts and tips.

OK here goes:

Wednesday/Thursday: Phoebe was acting like a textbook baby , awake and hour falling asleep for two all day, fell asleep at 10 woke up at 3:30 am and has only slept for about 2-3 since. She is really fussy, my wife is trying to feed her to sleep.

She has discussed tonight about maybe getting Phoebe used to sleeping on her own, but her suggestion is to feed to sleep, then gradually move Phoebe away (similar to how TH suggest in the last book using a pillow), I discussed this and suggested trying to get her away from feed to sleep first instead, but she says Phoebe wont goto sleep on her if she isnt feeding ( i was trying to compromise by just getting rid of one issue at a time), as she can smell milk.

What are peoples thoughts? At the moment I have suggested we try what Karen is suggesting, then if that doesnt work we can try something else. Hopefully this is her way of dealing with the fact that she knows something has to change (after Phoebe had a great day yesterday, I think she was kind of hoping that was the end of the bad days, but they have come back today )

[Deb_in_oz]

firstly - yeah on the good day - tell Karen that unfortunately most things as they improve are 2 steps forward and 1 step back - we want it to happen fast but must celebrate each little victory and build on them (like dieting - you can't say "well i ate 2 pieces of cheesecake so i might as well blow off the whole diet and eat 2 more KWIM

as far as which issue to tackle first - i really think you shoudl stop the feed to sleep first as if she falls asleep nursing and then gets transfered to her own bed she will wake in many transitions anmd be like "how did i get here" and will call out to be nursed again to get back to sleep. and there will be very mnimal gains. 

if you work to teach her to go to sleep on her own (can be in your bed for however long you want as long as yo both agree that is what you want - BW is not anti-co-sleeping, just as long as both parents are happy with the choice).  anyway since she is used to falling asleep fully on the breast you woudl do a gradual change - let her nurse until drowsy but before she actually falls asleep take her off the breast and burp her gently and then lay her down to go to sleep - you stay with her and use pat/shh - she will be reassured because you are still there and you just keep shhing loudly and patting and you can tell her "everything is allright - time for sleep.." the first time it may take an hour (or 20 min) but then then next time it will be less because she will understand that you mean business and this is the new way - still staying close to keep her trusting you as she is used to sleeping ON you...

you just see how quickly she adjusts to it.  with each passing feed you shoudl be able to put her down less and less drowsy until one day very soon you find you can feed her, have A time and then put her to bed without more nursing.

i think this is the better course instead of continuing the feed to sleep which would probably result in her waking soon after going to her own bed

[Eden's Mum]

At 6 weeks i foudn it very difficult to get noah to feed wihout going to sleep. I decided to take all of our probems and just deal with one at a time. The feeding to sleep is a good place to start. I would take him off as soon as he fell asleep and put him down. he would wake, i would put him back on and so on. it meant feeding took a long time but once he ws satisfied i would rouse him just enough to get half an eye open - any kind of response and then put him down for a sleep. i put him down to sleep in the same way everytime. I didn't use shpat or anyting else as i decided it disturbed him nd i just let him fuss for a bit. obviously if he became hysterical i would pick him up and calm him but i let him cry a bit before leaping in there.

6 weeks is really young and things are all over hte place at this stage. Phoebe will settle down. you just need to be consistant. decide on a routine. not timed or anything, but what cues you will use to say sleep to her and do them everytime without fail. and accept that it will go wrong regularly for a while.  Oh the other thing was i was paranoid about awake time, but in fact the more sleep he had during the day the better he was at night at this stage. he needed to be settled down after about an hour to an hour and a half awake. don't wait until she is crying to try and settle her, just look for the slighty glazed look, or the slow blink or the third yawn. try feeding as soon as she wakes in the day so taht she isn't hungry by the time she is tired.

just a few ideas. i hope things get better for you and that you find the key that works for you. :wink:

[cymonguk]

my wife had a nail appt tonight so she fed phoebe until 5:45 and left (hesitantly),we played for a bit (and I took some photos), and at 6:15 she was looking tired so I took her to our room and ssh/pat her on my shoulder she fussed for 10 mins or so, then began dropping off, so i put her down she lasted 5 mins before crying hard, so I decided to take baby steps. I picked her up and got her back off again, so i let her sleep on me which she did for 45 mins and she woke up when my wife walked in. I got her back off pretty quick tho.

She then slept for another 3 hrs or so, my wife did seem a bit put out (she joked, but i could tell there was more to it), and said "She doesnt need me anymore", and looked sad that phoebe was fast asleep with me, I explained of course she did, just that she could do some stuff herself without being pinned to the sofa. This may explain the reticence to change. But she has got so much done in the three hours she seems to be happy.

She did ask if phoebe cried, well of course she moaned and whinged, and karen tried to look cross at me, but i said "she was tired, and grumpy, and needed to tell me, it wasnt like i let her cio, she knew daddy was there cuddling her", i think she was looking for another reason, bless her the trials of being a new mum, baby steps for us all!