Problems with time it takes to go to sleep

[Luka's Dad]

Hi,

This is my first post here, and I'm sorry that it is along the lines of the millions of first time posts that I've read here so far.  I'm sure the answer to my question is here somewhere, but there are so many posts, it's difficult to find.

Luka is coming up 5 weeks old, and we have been trying the EASY method for the past week or so and it has helped us quite a lot to just identify when he was tired etc.

I was going to post up a big list of questions that have arisen, but having just talked to my wife who is at home with the little one, I thought this question is the most pressing.

Basically, Luka will feed for about an hour, and leave no time for activity before he starts yawning.  This is fine, and we expect it now.  However, putting him to sleep takes on average 45 minutes to an hour.  The last time my wife tried it had just taken an 1.25 hours.  This just seems excessive to me, and is very trying for us both, especially at night.  He is pretty much on a 3 hour cycle, but the putting down time is obviously eating into the time he should be sleeping.   The "put down" experience is usually something along these lines:
We swaddle him (in a miracle blanked), and he starts crying.  We shh/pat for a while until he stops crying (this usually involves some struggling and "head banging" for him to get comfortable in our arms) and appears more settled and put him down in his basket.  (I was putting him on his side and continuing to pat, but my wife says that seems to unsettle him more, so she puts him on his back and just shhs for a while, so I have started to do this as well.)  We continue to shh for a while and usually he will be settled for about 5 minutes then he will start tossing his head from side to side, his feet may start going and he will start crying.  At this point we pick him up and shh/pat again and repeat the whole procedure.  This can go on for the full 45 minutes, or in the worst scenarios, as per this morning, he will appear settled, then his eyes will open and he will just stare for ages, yawning every now and again to remind us that he is still tired, and could we please get him to sleep!  :lol:

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what we can do?  In the book Tracy says to expect about 20 minutes to get them to sleep, but I think we have only had 3 incidents in the past week where it has taken under 45.

Sorry about the long post, and TIA,

Tom

[corrina01]

Don't pick him up, just keep on at the ssshhing.

The head banging and struggling normally is for him to be put in the basket, as my DD has never stayed in my arms while trying to comfort her while she is crying.  I normally swaddle her while she is crying, take her to the cot, while crying, the minute I lay her down, she subsides into fussing and then stops.

 My DD does the head turning and the feet thing, when she is overtired. 

When my DD was only 5 weeks, she fed and then went to bed.  You will find that as they get older their awake time gradually increases.

You are helping him fall asleep, he will get the hang of it.  In a couple of weeks you will think now hes finally tackled this hurdle, then another one will jump in.

You are doing a very good job.   

[Luka's Dad]

Thank you for the speedy response!

Don't pick him up, just keep on at the ssshhing.

Okay.   That's worth trying.

The head banging and struggling normally is for him to be put in the basket

I guess that makes sense.  There have been times when he has settled down more easily if I lie him down on my chest or something.

You are helping him fall asleep, he will get the hang of it.  In a couple of weeks you will think now hes finally tackled this hurdle, then another one will jump in.

That's the thing that keeps me going, knowing that everything we encounter will just be "a phase"

[Jaime]

corrina has given you some great advice, so i just wanted to post a couple helpful links for you:

http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/pat-shush-for-babies-under-3-months-old-vt26672.html

http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/a-special-sleep-interview-with-tracy-hogg-vt451.html

[Maddy's Mum]

Just wanted to add that a dummy may help him get to sleep and is good to use for younger babies - however, don't get caught up in putting it back in when he spits it out...otherwise there is a whole new world of problems there  :wink:

I found a cherry tipped dummy was best for mads when she was little as she could hold it in for as long as she needed.

HTH!
Dee
x

[kzener]

I agree with the above suggestions.

It took me a couple of weeks to teach our little one how to fall asleep.  The key was consistency. I also just changed my mindset that my job for the next few weeks was to teach him this skill.  It was amazing how my frustration subsided when I changed my expectations. Eventually I was able to sit by his crib (out of sight) but be there to help him through the jolts.  I even got through a 400 page book doing this over the couple of weeks.  And just when I was getting to the last 50 pages..poof..he no longer needed my help!  I started to yearn for the opportunity to get back to my book!

Also - I bought the second book - "Baby Whisperer solves all your problems" for some more detailed guidance.

But don't get me wrong..there were still some frustrating times where my husband had to rescue me or I had to rescue him.  Stick with it, it pays off.  (but just in time for another change  :wink: )

[Luka's Dad]

Firstly thanks for all the replies. 

We had a bad 24 hours

Yesterday during the day it was taking over an hour for him to settle, and he was sleeping between 15 minutes and an hour at a time.  In the evening after I got home from work, it didn't get much better.  My DS was obvioulsy tired, but he would scream the house down as soon as he was swaddled, and take ages to settle to the point of not screaming.  After getting him into his basket.  The usual routine would follow, with him appearing to settle for 4 minutes, then either opening his eyes and just looing around whilst yawning, or tossing his head from side to side then starting to cry.  A few times when he did this I tried to continue shh/pat, but invariably his cry got to such a hysterical pitch that I ended up picking him up and jiggling, or my wife fed him.  Sometimes he settled down again without picking him up, but it still took well over an hour to get him to sleep.  I can only gather from lots of other posts that this is pretty normal, but is getting really stressful for all involved.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to calm him down again when he is obvioulsy over tired, and also what can we do when he lies there with his eyes open for ages?  I can hazard a guess that the answer is to keep up with shh/pat, but is there anything else we can be doing?

Thanks,  Tom.

[corrina01]

Is he a sucky baby? Have you tried a dummy like Maddys Mum suggested, it can be soothing, just like mums breast.  I introduced a dummy, when my DD kept crying, and it soon worked.

[Luka's Dad]

Is he a sucky baby? Have you tried a dummy like Maddys Mum suggested, it can be soothing, just like mums breast.  I introduced a dummy, when my DD kept crying, and it soon worked.

I mean to say before actually.  He does seem to be a rather sucky baby, but we tried offering him all sorts of dummies and he just didn't know what to do with them, as they just keep falling out and he doesn't suck on them.  He is breastfed which may have a lot to do with it.

[corrina01]

You can get dummy that are like a mothers nipple, I can't remember what they are called, but they do in my Tesco's.

[MPalmer]

Hi there~

I am in the same boat as you!  I have a 5 1/2 week old and he takes forever to settle also.  We've tried to limit awake time to just breastfeeding and diaper change and it's back to the swaddle...but he just thrashes his head around too and grunts up a storm.  To be honest...we've been holding him until he falls asleep. Then we put him in his bassinet  I know...I know...it's accidental parenting...and I'm not doing a good job teaching him how to fall asleep on his own.  But at 5 1/2 weeks old, my thought is to get in sleep however we can and we can gradually work on putting him down awake.  Otherwise...if we let him be awake for 2 1/2 out of every 3 hour increment...we have a VERY unhappy baby at the end of every day. 
It's been very tough...I KNOW!  I'm just trying to have faith that we'll all work this out SOON!

[Luka's Dad]

Hi there~

I am in the same boat as you!  I have a 5 1/2 week old and he takes forever to settle also.  We've tried to limit awake time to just breastfeeding and diaper change and it's back to the swaddle...but he just thrashes his head around too and grunts up a storm.  To be honest...we've been holding him until he falls asleep. Then we put him in his bassinet  I know...I know...it's accidental parenting...and I'm not doing a good job teaching him how to fall asleep on his own.  But at 5 1/2 weeks old, my thought is to get in sleep however we can and we can gradually work on putting him down awake.  Otherwise...if we let him be awake for 2 1/2 out of every 3 hour increment...we have a VERY unhappy baby at the end of every day. 
It's been very tough...I KNOW!  I'm just trying to have faith that we'll all work this out SOON!

It's getting to the point where I am inclined to agree that we need to go for the "whatever works" method.  Luka was awake from 6pm to 11pm last night because he was so tired.  I was in meltdown mode and completely useless, my wife had been at it all day and her carpel tunnel problems were flaring up again as she had been patting him for so long.  I don't know if he is going through an early growth spurt or something, but the last few days have been a nightmare   I realise that we need to be consistant with what we do, but I'm beginning to think that we need some time off from BW methods, do loads of "accidental parenting", and come back at it when we are all a bit  fresher.  I don't know if my wife will agree.  :?

I really agree with the BW principles, but I have found the books a bit vague, and not very good at talking about what to do when things go wrong.  We've been trying for a week, and things seem to be getting worse not better.  I know it can take a while, but this is upsetting everyone involved, which can't be good!

[corrina01]

What is your schedule like?

Are you on a 3hr easy,  maybe he is hungry before then.  If you can post a detailed schedule, then maybe I can help with my lo only about 15 weeks older than yours and I can vaguely remember what I did.

[Luka's Dad]

What is your schedule like?

Are you on a 3hr easy,  maybe he is hungry before then.  If you can post a detailed schedule, then maybe I can help with my lo only about 15 weeks older than yours and I can vaguely remember what I did.

This is a difficult one to answer.  My DW has been taking detailed notes of when he eats and sleeps, but to be honest, it is so all over the place that it is hard to work out what his routine is.  I'm kind of thinking that this is part of the problem, but we don't really know how to get him on more of an even keel.   Getting him to sleep, and his short naps means that he is pretty much never getting enough sleep and is always over tired.

I'll have a look at the notes when I get home tonight and post up a few example days though.

[MPalmer]

Hello agian~

Sorry it's taken a while to reply...I hope you can still see this!   I feel terrible that you and your wife are going thru this!  I would agree that it's time to do a whatever works method because your little guy needs to get some sleep regardless and you and your wife need an opportunity to regroup and recharge.  I know...it's so frustrating b/c you're trying SO HARD to do things right and get off to a right start...but as I have too learned...not all babies are going to respond the way we expect.   I had such expectations that I was going to do everything right and the results were going to be that he was going to sleep hours & hours.  Well...when that didn't happen, I felt like a failure.  But FORTUNATELY, I have a great husband, doctor and friends that have given me the following tips of advice:
1)  Your baby is still so new to the world that he's learning how to eat, breath, feel temperature etc...on top of that he's got to learn how to deal with being tired and transitioning to sleep.  It's our job to help him with that!   
2)  It's easy for us to want to takle so much at once, but we should regroup and tackle one thing at a time.  One mom said she focused on getting him to sleep in the first month, 2nd month she focused on getting on the 3 hr plan etc.   He's still so young that there's plenty of time to get back to the BW principles in time...it doesn't have to all be now.
3)  At 5 weeks old, he's still developing his nervous system etc...so if anything...just hang in there for a week or two and he'll pass thru this on his own.
4)  Beleive in YOURSELF and YOUR INSTINCTS FIRST before turning to a book!!!  That's the most important one I've learned.  No book is going to tell you exactly how to deal w/ YOUR BABY.  So you've got to have faith in yourself that you can figure it out.  Take things one at a time, and roll with the punches.  Almost like AA...take one day at a time!!!

I think the last point is the most important because you need to regroup as parents to be able to make it!  You need to trust in yourself that you can do it!  Oh ya....and I also heard that the first 6 weeks of a baby's life are usually the most frustrating for baby...so things just might turn around!!!!   Hang in there!!! You can do it and you can get back to BW principles one at a time later!!!

[MPalmer]

Hi again~

I was just thinking I could type a quick diddy about what has been working for us to get our little guy relaxed and to sleep.

1)  When feeding, we keep the lights & noise down to not stimulate him.  When he's over tired...he has a hard time focusing on eating.  He thrashes around.  So we talk softly, and are gentle.
2) After he eats, we make a quick diaper & clothes change if necessary and then go back to chair for about 5-10 minutes of cuddling...skin on skin.  This really relaxes him. 
3)  After that...we swaddle him tightly!   If not...his jerky arms & legs just stimulate him more.  So, after we swaddle we nuzzle in the chair or bed either with his head nuzzled against our arm or chest...skin on skin.  He also likes a hand against his face or on his head.   Shhhh/pat doesn't work.  Only a slight bit of patting when he's agitated and shhhhh'ing only when he's crying works.   Oh ya...we give him a pacifier too.
4)  On good days we put him down somewhat asleep in his basinet and keep a hand on his chest until he's out.  On bad days we just hold him the whole time.  That gets tiring...but he sleeps in our arms.
5)  We don't usu. leave the house...but he does sleep in a front carrier.  Again...I think it's skin on skin (somewhat.)

Hope that helps!!!  You just have to experiment with what sooths him.   Good Luck~!

[Esmeralda Gamboa]

My DD was the same or somewhat I was in the same boat too! I was exhausted, sleep deprived and praying when will the routine work.  She is now 13 weeks and before  her 9th week  , she was  developing a pattern .Doing everything the same way everyday , your baby  will get use to it . Remember he doesn't know how to go to sleep. Right now if you have to make him fall asleep in your arms them put him down in his basket or when you see him sleepy enough to put him in his crib. That what I did and eventually putting her down in her crib as soon I saw the first cues .  You have to do what works for you  until you notice that your DS is getting use to  a routine. The first weeks I worried of accidental parenting but then I did what suited me FOR A  WHILE then gradually  not letting  fall asleep in my arms  and in her crib.Don't get me wrong I was out of my mind at first, my daughter look like I was giving her caffeine,  she would  be awake from 6pm to 11pm , overtired arms flying , getting out of her swaddle.
Right now any accidental parenting for me  it was a plus, b/c  you can undo it very fast . The Pacifier was a God send ,  my DD didn't want none of it  ( She was bf ) . The consisitency with it really work. She now sleeps from 8:30 pm until 7 am ( with the dream feed at 10:30). The paci sends off to sleep and with her naps too.

[Luka's Dad]

What is your schedule like?

Are you on a 3hr easy,  maybe he is hungry before then.  If you can post a detailed schedule, then maybe I can help with my lo only about 15 weeks older than yours and I can vaguely remember what I did.

Well here is an example day.  Unfortunately every day is kind of different, so I don't know if this really representative!  :?

6.05 Eat
6.25 Put down (start shh/pat)
7.30 Sleep
8.10 Eat
9.00 Activity
9.10 Put down
9.45 Sleep
10.40 Eat
11.20 Activity
11.50 Put down
12.15 Sleep
12.40 Awake
13.00 Eat
13.35 Put down
14.50 Sleep
16.00 Eat
16.50 Activity
17.10 Put down
17.35 Sleep
18.00 Eat
18.30 Put down
20.00 Eat
20.20 Put down
21.30 Eat
22.30 Put down
23.30 Sleep

Where a put down follows an eat it is because he has yawned immeadiately, and so there has been no chance for activity.

I don't think we have managed to get him to go to sleep in less than an hour for the past day or so, and for the past 20 minutes or so as I have typed this, all I could hear is him screaming his head off as my wife has tried to get him to go down.  This really isn't working for us!

[corrina01]

That schedule looks good.  Have you got the first two books? If so, have you done the type of baby he is? 

If you and your wife need a break, do some accidental parenting, whatever it takes to get your DS to sleep at night.  As MPalmer said accidental parenting can soon be easily undone. But be careful, just until he learns how to go to sleep. Then tackle going to sleep in the basket.

Just a thought, is he happy upright and feeding?  But he screams as soon as you lay him down?

You are doing a good job, so don't give up.

Work on the days first. 

Try ssshh without the pat. My DD doesn't like the pat.

Try not to cluster feed as you are doing in the evenings.   My DD has never cluster fed.

Remember you are just trying to get him to sleep. Don't beat yourself up over it, we all go through it.  Remember there are some babies worse than yours.

[KellyC]

Hi there

It sounds like you're having an absolute nightmare, I hope you and your wife are enjoying a nice glass of wine when he eventually goes down in the evening!  (in moderation, of course, if your wife is breastfeeding!!)

My DS is 10 weeks old now and although I tried to implement EASY from day 1, it was about week 3 before I was able to start getting to grips with it.  My 'top tips' are dummy and swaddling.  You're already doing the swaddling (and miracle blankets are fab!) and I would thoroughly recommend being persistent with getting your DS to take the dummy.  Zander is exclusively breastfed and is happy to take a dummy - we've found the Mam ones to be the best as he's able to keep hold of it himself for longer.  When we first put the dummy in our DS's mouth he does a very loose sucking - don't let go at this point as he hasn't got it yet!  Some gentle stroking of the cheek can help to get his sucking reflex going and eventually he'll take it properly.  Also, try and get him to take it when he's calm and not overtired or in a state - you don't stand a chance then!  Anyhow - we've found that implementing all the Baby Whisperer principles (including the dummy) means that we can put Zander into bed at night, wide awake after his bath, and we don't hear from him again all evening!  In the evenings he spits his dummy out really quickly and goes into a deep sleep and because we don't replace the dummy when it falls out he doesn't wake up expecting us to do so.  Do you have an evening routine of a bath etc?  I'm sure this has also helped him to understand when it is bedtime. 

I didn't want to use a dummy originally - some people frown upon them and I felt like a bit of a failure for using one.  However, they've helped to make DS a great feeder, sleeper etc. and once he's a little older I'll use PU/PD to take the dummy away.  That will be a whole other story ...!

Good Luck!
Kelly

PS - is your DS being fed close to his nap/bed time, could he have wind?  Zander screams his head off with wind and no amount of dangling him over my shoulder and rubbing and patting his back will do.  My miracle cure is Gripe Water - we've gone through bottles of it!  Literally seconds after we've given him a dose he'll stop crying and we give him his dummy and he's asleep in seconds, even if it isn't nap time!  We've found it much more effective than Infacol and the like.

[Luka's Dad]

That schedule looks good.  Have you got the first two books? If so, have you done the type of baby he is?

We have the first book, and although it's a little early early to work out his temperament, we have decided he is pretty much a textbook baby.  Except when it comes to bedtime

Just a thought, is he happy upright and feeding?  But he screams as soon as you lay him down?

He will be a bit grizzly (indicating it's time for bed), so we swaddle him and he starts screaming.  This can be consoled after a while so that he is looking sleepy in our arms.  We put him down and he starts screaming again.  We thought it may be reflux, so have raised his matress at the head end, but he is gaining weight like nobodies business (gained 1lb 1oz in the past week and a half), so we're pretty sure it's not that.

Try not to cluster feed as you are doing in the evenings.   My DD has never cluster fed.

We're not actually intentionally cluster feeding   The feeds on the report I gave were generally because we had been trying to get him down for so long, and he was so over tired, that it was the only thing that would calm him down.

[Luka's Dad]

My 'top tips' are dummy and swaddling.  You're already doing the swaddling (and miracle blankets are fab!) and I would thoroughly recommend being persistent with getting your DS to take the dummy.

It probably is worth persevering with a dummy.  I think my general aversion to the idea has meant that when he refuses it, I'm kind of releaved!  I have also tried giving it to him when he has been upset, which as you say, really doesn't help matters.  I'll try some of the tips you've suggested.

Do you have an evening routine of a bath etc?  I'm sure this has also helped him to understand when it is bedtime. 

We don't have an evening routine, as his activity time is so short that it doesn't allow for one.  We are trying to get a small wind down routine int the short time available though.

PS - is your DS being fed close to his nap/bed time, could he have wind?  Zander screams his head off with wind and no amount of dangling him over my shoulder and rubbing and patting his back will do.  My miracle cure is Gripe Water

We tried using infacol for a few days, but it did nothing, so we started using gripe water with him about a week ago.  It is easier to get him to burp, but a lot of the time it still sounds like (from his cries) that he needs to burp some more.  We have a similar situation, where no amount of rubbing, patting, jiggling or dangling will get the desired results.

[corrina01]

If he has wind, try laying him on your lap on his tummy, and then gently patting his back, or leave him lying on his back for a minute and then gently lifting him up, thats what worked with my DD.  Or maybe he has an upset stomach and he has wind down below, (my DD had it terrible for the first 2 months), in that case lift him on your shoulder and then pat his bum for about 5 minutes, to let him know where it should be coming from.

Take it from me it will get easier as time goes by. 

You will get used to your baby and my DP said when my DD was that old, in a few weeks you will wonder what the fuss was about. 

Just try and read his hunger and tired cries.

Any more info, I will try to answer.

[15milner]

As a completely different idea.

at 5 weeks my Matthew cried a lot, didn't sleep well etc.  I took him to see a cranial osteopath.  Birth is a traumatic time for babies and things are pushed / pulled / twisted etc and my basic understanding is that somethings might not be quite where they are - even though in my eyes I had a good labour / birth. 

We had just 3 sessions (many more than that and a good osteopath should say that the treatment isn't being effective).  After those 3 sessions, he seemed so much happier and calmer, the colicky symptoms and crying were definately less than they had be.

I had to believe that it worked.  If you are into trying complementary therapy then try this.  It is completely non-physical, from what it looks like, the baby is fully clothed ( i bf at the same time) and the practitioner is just putting their hands on the baby, however I have an adult friend who gets cranial osteopathy and she says that she feels things working, so there is something in it.

You are doing a great job - you are all trying to get to know each other - you are trying to work out what you new baby wants and he is trying to work out the best way of communicating his needs to you.

Best wishes
Alex

[Aarismom]

Just thought I'd throw a few thoughts in here.

Cluster feeding before bedtime is normal, and encouraged at this age (Tracy even suggests doing it). I use to do it all the time with my lo, and it helped her sleep at night somewhat because she wasn't as hungry. So, while it works for some, it might not work for others. But it's certainly something that's ok to do...I'm not sure why it's being suggested not to do it.

I'll be honest, at 5 weeks, your lo is just now getting his nights straightened out. The BW principals do work, but they take some time, something I can see you're really trying to do. I know a lot of people would probably say "stick with it" at this point, but tbh, right now I think it's best to just do what you know works, and then try and straighten his day out as his night sleep develops in a few weeks. Babies are creatures of habit, but it only takes a few days to change a habit at this age.

Something you can do now to set the stage is create a wind down routine that you're going to stick with for awhile for naps and bedtime. If you need to feed to sleep for a few weeks, put that in your wind down routine, but take it out when you start to really focus on sleep training.

So, his schedule looks more like wake,feed, diaper change, feed (or whatever you want to use as a prop) back to bed for now. As soon as night sleep is developed in a few weeks (you'll notice he's sleeping longer at night), you can ease into sleep training. Pacifiers are wonderful things if your lo will learn to take it! You'll eventually have to wean him, or he'll wean himself, but they're soo nice in the beginning.

Hope something in here helps!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[travis's mum]

Hi there I thought I'd put my two pence worth, our baby when first born would not sleep for more than 45min and was always crying, even the midwives at the hospital were glad for their shift to be over :wink: .

It was an awful time for my Dh and I, a couple of midwives suggested that DS had gas they would wrap a warm (not hot) towel around his belly and it seemed to calm him for a while. also we used to elevating the matress, that seemed to help (you can put a towel on a radiator).

Then when he was four weeks we started giving him infacol (you can get it from a pharmacy or ask a ped) before feeds, it's totally natural and helped a bit with the gas. 

People kept on saying to me he would settle I had no idea what they meant but I hoped he would very soon :wink: . Then when he turned six weeks old he really calmed down he became a bit more aware of his surroundings but mostly didn.t cry all the time and started sleeping for longer stretches.

Things started to get so much better and calmer, He still suffered from gas problems (but thats another story). But at least we knew what it was and how to handle it.

By the way our DS didn't like the dummy to much either we kept offering it to him then he got the hang of it.

Your doing a great job your Lo is very lucky to have parents like you