Author Topic: 14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!  (Read 7559 times)

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Offline tashandhenry

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« on: November 13, 2005, 20:33:57 pm »
Hi,

I’m in need of some help with my nearly 14 month old spirited son (very active, walking at 8 months old, showing "tantrums" (stamping feet & crying) at 10 months).

The last couple of months the progression to his bedroom for bedtime has got more fraught, in that my ds has ended up screaming on occasions and really fighting going to bed although he is tired. Once he is in his cot he usually takes approx 10 mins to get off to sleep apart from when really fraught he naturally takes longer.

We have had a routine since about 5 months old and had our hiccups along the way. Our ds was seriously ill on holiday in France and had emergency surgery when 9 months old and again seriously ill with same problem at 10 months old but problem was rectified within 24 hours in hospital. After that incident he started to show signs of separation anxiety. I then had to return to work 2 days a week at 11months old and he and I were both upset initially but he soon adapted and once he was at nursery and I or my husband had left he settled usually within in a few minutes once distracted and all reports are that he has a happy day.

Since starting nursery however he also has been ill on and off with ear infections, chest infection and colds. I have got into accidental parenting and given him the dummy and recently holding his hand to sleep. It appears the more I give the more he wants. Initially the dummy was enough for him to settle but then after a while he needed more when he was ill and I gave him more comfort but then he always wanted that. I feel stuck and want to wean myself off as I’m going crazy as missing out on going out incase he wakes up as don’t think he’ll settle with anyone else. It’s really getting me down.
Our present routine is as follows:

5.00 waking aaagh!!! ( another thing that we’d like to be later - he grumbles/cries on and off in cot)
6.00-6.30 gets up and goes downstairs for cup of milk
7.30-8.00 breakfast
10.00-10.30 nap usually 1.5 hours. If only 40 mins then has pm nap too.
12.00-1.00 lunch time
3.00 snack and small cup of milk
4.45 tea
6.15 bath, bottle of milk and bed, usually asleep by 7.00 at latest.

When he is well he does usually sleep through the night.

I’d really like some help on heading towards bed. Any clues on what we are doing wrong? We used to have a story always before bed but now he is too upset to even consider it.

I saw somebody talk about the walk in/ walk out method. How does that work and do you think it would be appropriate. I would like to discontinue the dummy as he used to always sleep without it. Should I do it all together or one thing at a time or is that for me to figure out???!!

Any ideas for the early waking aswell? We tried Wake to sleep a while ago unsuccessfully – are there alternatives?

Many thanks!   :)

Offline Lel

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 21:16:33 pm »
Hi there

Not sure if I can help much but have tried controlled crying once at 13 months with my daughter - did work but really hard. At 19 months we got in the same situation with her after a return from holiday staying with her to settle her to sleep and if she woke in the night. we didn't address this as I was pregnant and didn't want to make her feel unloved etc etc. BIG mistake !! Anyway now at two years we are doing  a gradual withdrawal. moving out further each night. Its taken two weeks from my husband laying by her bed to getting onto the landing with door wide open. each time she asks for something or kicks off, we go in respond then leave. we are down to about 10 - 15 mins now to settle to sleep and she only really asks for a drink now or her doll if she loses it. As for not going out in case she wakes - been there too ! however that was confronted when i went to hospital to give birth ! She's never slept out or been babysat since very young so I was worried sick about her waking if my husband or I were not there however my brother came and she woke at 4 am. after 5 mins of total shock she couldn't care less ! She was in her element watching Barney at 4.30 am !! Don't think this will help much but at least you know others have been there !!!
LEL

Offline tashandhenry

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 14:47:17 pm »
Thanks for your reply,

Is controlled crying the same as walk in / walk out? And how exactly do you implement them?

Also once you start do you do the same if they wake in the night?

Thanks Tash

Offline Lel

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 21:22:11 pm »
Hi Tash

With controlled crying you leave them to cry for 10 mins, go in pick up reassure and calm then put down leave for another 10, repeat then leave for 15 mins, repeat leave for 15 repeat leave for 20 mins ( if you can stand it !! ) etc etc. Theres quite a lot about it on the net its just if you can stand it. You have to be strong, not on your own and usually desparate ! To be fair it is effective within three or four days but I'm not sure really how I feel about it, it seems really cruel. I don't really know much about walk in / walk out. Could you enlighten me ?!

In answer to your question I would be more inclined to do conrolled crying for night waking and do withdrawral / what I presume is walk in / walk out to settle. Inresing my 2 year old went down no problem tonight in about 5 mins after two weeks of withdrawing.

Good luck. Let us know if you have any success !

lel
LEL

Offline tashandhenry

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2005, 16:31:58 pm »
Glad your lo settled in 5 mins and your having progress.
We seem to be having some progress on the day time naps in that not a huge melt down at nap time as being very consious of what we do before naps and no hectic play and gradual wind down seems to help.( however still has dummy  !!!)  :oops:
I am not sure about leaving ds for 5 mins then 10 minutes is that not similar to crying it out???
Night time we are still a bit rubbish on.

Thanks for replys
Tash

Offline kaynesmommy

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2005, 17:29:26 pm »
hi Tash-I so know where you are! Spirited, early walker,  early tantrums, prone to sickness lo here :wink:

Our now 16 month old has been in the space your in on and off since about six months with his sleep.  Just when we think we've go it he starts waking at night or refusing to go down or learnig to climb out of his crib. (bet you can't wait)

he is sleeping really well now and I'm not entirely sure what we've, or if he just did it but here's our wind down/bedtime/ schedule.  I find he does better with the later schedule but that won't work for every one.

800 am wake
830 am breakie/milk
900am-noon play/out/awake time/juice
12pm-lunch/milk
1230 quiet activity/drive home
100 pm-330 pm nap
400 snack/juice
600 dinner/milk
730 bath
800 quiet activities/snuggles/blankie/noise machine(white noise) and soother-
900 say goodnight and into bed and walk out.

 He fusses still sometimes and really did at first, but I found going in made it worse.  After 14 months I think he had the skills to sooth himself and was like "mama what are you doing?, I'm trying to go to sleep, get out! " although he'd try and get up.

I don't know if that helps hon.  I'm really not all that worried about the soother myself as I don't see what it hurts to use it at bedtime.  I know how you feel about going out too.  I am sooo worried about him getting up and always take our cell phones and don't go to far.  It is getting better since he's been sleeping better at nite.  That's happened more since we let him fuss and he started to self settle.

hth

karen

Offline elfin

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2005, 18:05:07 pm »
Hi Tash,

Sorry to hear you are having a rough go of it right now!  As the mom of a spirited toddler prone to very early wakings as well I can sympathize.

I'll share with you what has worked for me and hopefully some of it you will find useful.  First off though, as a moderator on the Babywhisperer site I cannot recommend crying it out or controlled crying, as this site is dedicated to Tracy's philosophies and teachings.

It may help if you could tell me what his wind down routine looks like for naps and bedtime?  Is he taking one nap or two?  Has this fighting sleep just started or has he always fought it?  Does he use his dummy at sleep time?  Does he have a lovey in his crib?  Sorry for all the questions I just want some clarification!

My ds went through some sleep upheaval from 14 months onward off and on, whether from teething, developmental milestones, or illness.  Often during or right after it seemed as though a battle to get him to sleep on his own again.  He has been a babywhispered baby since he was very young and always done well.  I tried to implement the pu/pd with him, but he would become even more upset with me in the room, and then thought it was a game and would try to throw his stuffed animals, etc.. from his crib to try and get me to play with him.  So this is where I started doing the walk in/walk out.  I would follow his routine as usual and put him down (preferably not upset), and then leave.  I would then wait and once he started crying again, go in reassure him till he was calm, and then leave again.  I kept the talking to a minimum, and would only pick him up if he was really upset, and then leave again.  I would do this over and over until he fell asleep.  This gave the message that it was time to sleep, that when I came in it wasn't play time, but that I was also there if he needed me.  I never waited until a predetermined time to go in, but rather listened to him and went in when needed.  Does that make sense?

As for the early wakings....I think he just outgrew it.  I tried an earlier bedtime, later bedtime, shorter nap, longer nap, etc..  All of a sudden one day he slept until 6am, and knock on wood he has since then.

I hope some of this helps, and if you have any other questions let me know!
Carrie

Myles 12/06/03

elfin@thebabywhisperer.com

Offline Amanda Ridgway

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2005, 23:42:47 pm »
Hi Tash / Carrie

I have the same with my 16 month old and am very interested to hear how you get on.  Very interested in the two different styles and am just starting to do the walk in walk out.  My wee Hannah hasnt responded to anything as yet.  We have the nice quiet bed time routine and then once in the cot, the bum gets pushed in the air, we have head stands, feet out the cot and it is cot olympics.  Have tried the hand on the back, the shushing and nothing settles her.  Walk out and the crying starts. Tried the controlled crying but she just cries and then vomits, so this method is out of the question.  It is taking an hour to get her to sleep at night and she is waking once in the night and will only go back to sleep with me and the bottle.

Would be really interested in any suggestions as to what to try first ie: walk in walk out, PU/PD or staying in the room.  Have tried the later but she just thinks i am in there to play.

Look forward to your comments.
Many thanks, Amanda

Offline tashandhenry

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2005, 20:20:41 pm »
Hi all
Thank you all for your responses...so nice to hear from other mum's of spirited little one's...double the fun, but double the work  with these gorgeous little ones!!! :wink:
Henry still has a cold with a cough that is frequently waking him in the night, so up twice last night at 1am and 3am to resettle, but then slept till 7 am. , and similar the previous night. Second wake took a good hour to resettle and had to be in there touching mine or my husband's hand.
 I have been thinking about the whole day and have thought that there has seemed to be a control issue here so over the last few days heve been giving him as nuch independance as possible during the day and preparing him verbally for the next thing on the agenda for the day and that seems to help. As we have also had a refusal of food, however we've completely backed off in encouraging "one more mouthful" and have sat   down for all meals with Henry and me just having aslice of bread with him and bingo he ate all his dinner tonight..first time for a few days.

Day time naps have definatley imporoved since. However was back to nursery today for two days so will be interesting to see how things are on Friday.

In answer to your questions : wind down routine for naps is usually books downstairs or on our bed and when he starts yawning to say oh your tired my love, a sleep will recharge your batteries in a soothing tone, and lets go and see your teddy bears. I will then carry him up stairs and I now let him walk to his room and he usually points to his teddies in his cot and wants to get in the cot  with them. I then prepare his room ...shut blinds and curtains and put on soothing music lightly  and then wish him sweet dreams with a kiss on the head and give him his dummy  and leave room. He will have a little moan which I don't respond to and then settle or if he cries I go back in lye him down agin and say time to sleep and leave again. This does tend to work during day time naps however  after his two days at nursery it usually takes a lot longer., and has improved over past week since giving him more control and backing off a bit.
Bed time wind down is books downstairs if not too tired as unable to concentrate if is over tired, then bath and wawlk through to room for milk and bed. He usually closes his eyes and is nearly asleep at the end of his bottle of milk.  I then lay him in his cot and he drifts off to sleep with his dummy if not asleep from his bottle. Another important point to make here is that he gets irratated when he sees his bottle of milk ...it is like he wants it as drinks it all but first of all grizzles and stamps his feet when he first sees the bottle of milk and the same with his cup  of milk  in the mornings...not really sure how to deal with this one!!!

He tends to have one nap of 1.5 hours, which is fine if wakes at 7 and then sleeps from 11.30-1.00, but not if wakes at 5am!!I have had major problems since about 10 months old with pm naps and hence given up on pm naps unless only had 45mins in am then will have pm nap too. Sometimes he has fallen asleep in the car which does help with evening time and make night time better but I know I should not do that.
He has tended to fight sleep,and be a short napper, however with much perseverance at baby whispering we have usually managed to improve situ. Used pu/pd at 5 monthsto lengthen naps to good effect eventually. and mostly stirred around 5 am and sometimes had periods when he's got himself back to sleep again.
He does have dummy at sleep time only for the last 10 weeks or so...and am annoyed that i've got in to this situ as when he was ill in hospital he had it but we stopped it  a week after discharge with little resistance. The main reason it started was because he was having trouble settling to sleep at nursery so I gave him one there and it has spilled over to all bed times.
 I am trying to establish a bond with his teddy but does n't seem to have much effect yet!
He has always been a fairly good sleeper at night, however things are gradually decling as we speak. I have to always go in and settle in the night and am not sure where to start with addressing this...I really don't think dummy is helping any more...feels more of a hindranc ebut know it is going to be difficult initially to withdraw . Ifeel I need a clear plan to stick to when I decide to stop the big D. I definbatley think that less intervention is best for Henry but am apprehensive about getting there.
Do I stop dummy and do WI/WO at night time ?

I hope this makes sense and thank you for asking questions I feel heard and suppoerted .
I look forward to further comments. Sorry for waffling  a bit too!!

Offline AnnBee

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2005, 20:45:10 pm »
Hi Tash,

I haven't all the responds properly, so excuse me if I repeat something that has been already said.

I wouldn't recomment the control crying either. I tried it in a modified form (one of the mums described it earlier - she'd start with 1 min away and would wait 3 minutes as the longest before going in) but it didn't work as I'd thought it would. What I also didn't want is that Marcel would associate crying with me coming to him, so what I did when he once had great problems falling asleep was I'd put Marcel into bed, say goodnight and leave his room. He started crying almost immediately after that at which poit I'd go to him right away, stroke him or just say, "It's OK, I'm here" and leave the room after that (it always took less than a minute). Then, the story would repeat a few times but finally he'd fall asleep. After a few days he could fall asleep on his own as he'd been able to.
Ann, Mum to
Marcel (January 7, 2003) and
Pascal (December 29, 2005)

Offline Amanda Ridgway

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2005, 00:08:55 am »
Hi Tash

Thanks for the detailed info on your routine.  The biggest problem I have with Hannah is actually getting her to lie down and even start to settle.  She is not attached to any toys or anything.  The one question I do have is does it get worse before it gets better.  She has now started the same antics for her day time nap which she used to be fine with?  It has just taken an hour to get her to sleep.  Any suggestions would be welcome.  Kind regards
Many thanks, Amanda

Offline tashandhenry

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2005, 20:03:32 pm »
Hi Amanda,

How frustrating for you. Does your lo seem tired when she goes to bed? What is your wind down routine like before bed?  I have always found that to  be crucial, and have had to adapt for his developmental stage too. Sorry don't know the answer to  if it gets worse before getting better.

From what I have read so far I think I am going to go with  lyeing him down in his cot when he stands upand cries in the  night but stay with him initially but not to have him holding my hand ( he can't see me in the dark in the night too so I don't think I'll be a distraction, but I don't think that will work during the day for us , but am not going to embark on it until he is feeling a bit better and I have got a bit of strength back. I suppose it will be a gradual withdrawal like that then to wi/wo.

let us know what you try and how you get on.

 Best wishes.


Tash

Offline Amanda Ridgway

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2005, 23:54:15 pm »
HI Tash

bed time routine is pj's, kisses good night from dad, draw the curtains, story time, bottle then cuddles and into bed.  Thats when the fun starts, if I stay in the room she just mucks around and if I leave its tears.  The sleep routine takes about 15 minute, the antics about a hour.  The second I lie her down she is up again.  She can be yawning through this entire process and it makes no difference, so I feel that sleep time has just become a battle of wits which neither of us is enjoying.  Now she has started doing this is the day time which is making the day very long.  I am not sure how to change the bed time routine, except do it in the lounge instead so it is a change of scenery to try to break the cycle.  If you think there may be a better way to do the sleep routine I will try anything!!. kind regards and thanks for your thoughts.
Many thanks, Amanda

Offline tashandhenry

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2005, 10:47:45 am »
Hi Amanda and Carrie,
Amanda you said if you stay in the room it's anctics and if you leave it is tears . I was wondering what one you tend to do? As I have just found that staying in the room is doesn't seem to work , however Henry just cryed instead of antics.
I have just embarked on removal of dummy today as if I wait till he is cold free that will be forever, plus he can't  breath very well with a dummy and a snotty nose and he woke at 4.30 this morning and I just think there are so many things to address that lets just get rid of the ****** thing!
Henry cried solidly and quite inconsolably for 35 mins. I picked him up three times within that to calm him which he then just whimpered but mega protest when I put him down and if I rubbed his back he just pushed me away and stood at the cot in a real state. I eventually moved to behind the door and every minute or so popped my head in and said "settle down, time to sleep" and he eventually whimpered a bit and then fell asleep.

 I wonder if it is worth trying the later Amanda, but just wanted to clarify with Carrie that I am not letting him cry it out.

I look forward to your replies.

Offline Amanda Ridgway

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14 month old fighting sleep times .... help!!
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2005, 00:50:18 am »
Hi Tash

I stay in the room as if I leave her to cry she vomits so that is  not an option.  If I get up and turn my back on her she starts to cry, so spend the time sitting next to her cot.  She has started to want the bottle in bed (which I know is just another prop) but it settles her down and she goes to sleep.  I feel like I am going from one prop to another but will continue on.  At least with the bottle it only took 25 minutes instead of over an hour.  Glad you are getting some progress with your wee one.  Kind regards
Many thanks, Amanda