technical sleep questions

[M&M's Ima]

Okay, so watching my 7 week old fall asleep, I was wondering:

even with me there, with my hand firm on his back, he woke up after the ten minute mark. isn't my being there supposed to help him ease into sleep?

why does he sometimes keep squirming, even to the point of awake, some naps for a pretty long time?

Sometimes after he gets a cut-short nap, he wakes up calm and can last a long time. If he's so overtired, how is this?

if he's crying to tune out the stimulation, why does he get more historical in a dark room?

and lastly, I need to sleep train him (give up nursing, teach him to fall asleep and stay asleep). Will this work if I can't do it every nap?
How long should I expect to be at it?

thanks in advance

[GG]

even with me there, with my hand firm on his back, he woke up after the ten minute mark. isn't my being there supposed to help him ease into sleep?

Do you mean he falls asleep and wakes up after 10 minutes?  If he falls asleep, you don't need to stay in the room.  Babies have restless sleep whether we are in the room or not... even as I type, my lo has been asleep for over an hour and is making restless waking noises but goes back to sleep on his own.  You should let your little one try to calm himself down so that he can learn to fall back asleep on his own.  If he starts to cry again, then go to him.

(If I misunderstood your question, could you elaborate?)

why does he sometimes keep squirming, even to the point of awake, some naps for a pretty long time?

Babies are notorious for being restless sleepers (see above). 

Sometimes after he gets a cut-short nap, he wakes up calm and can last a long time. If he's so overtired, how is this?

It's possible that he only needed that short nap to get some rest.  He may have had a deep sleep and woke up rested.  Not all short naps are bad or leave a baby tired.  It depends on a lot of factors (time of day, type of day they had, and the baby itself).  I base the 'success' of the nap on how the baby wakes up, not the length of the nap.

if he's crying to tune out the stimulation, why does he get more historical in a dark room?

It's not just light that's stimulating, it could be sounds, touch or even scents.  There's no way to completely block out all stimulation for a baby - this world is full of stimulation.  Instead, as long as you know that he's not crying because he's hungry, cold or needs to be changed, the baby will be okay.  Let him cry as he falls asleep.  He will eventually grow out of it.

and lastly, I need to sleep train him (give up nursing, teach him to fall asleep and stay asleep). Will this work if I can't do it every nap?
How long should I expect to be at it?

You really need to try to do it at all naps.  Otherwise, your baby will be confused if he is nursed to sleep in the morning but not in the afternoon.  It will take a little while.  He's only 7 weeks old, so it's possible that it may take 3-5 days for him to get used to it.  (It also depends on his personality.)

I had to wean my ds a few times to date and, I can honestly say that it was very hard for me to hear him crying because he wanted to nurse.  However, I knew for a fact that he wasn't hungry.  I also knew that, if I nursed him, he would wake up from his naps and not want to eat a full meal, and this causes problems for him at night because he wakes up often to eat.  So, I kept these things in mind as I taught him to not eat before a nap and he got used to it.  Be strong!   

[M&M's Ima]

thanks. this helped a lot.
do you mind elaborating on exactly what i should do when i decide it's time to put him to sleep, even if he doesn't settle easily?

and so you have any advice - if i have to do it every nap, how do i do it? i have a two year old running around! i tried yesterday to keep him out with toys adn stuff, but it just wasn't fair to him. he did great, but still managed to interrupt enough that it took me two hours. i cant do this to him every day, adn he will get sick of it fast.

so, i'm confused about what tracy talks about the different stages of sleep - that it takes twenty minutes to be really deeply asleep. i was assuming that meant from eyes closed?
(i know, i'm trying to borrow the book again so i know what i'm talking about.)

thanks again for your help

[GG]

Rafaella, I have to admit that I only have 1 child at the moment and I'm not sure how to handle the older one while trying to teach the baby not to nurse to sleep.  I'm hoping someone has some advice regarding that, because it seems that it's interfering with trying to get Menachem used to not eating to sleep.

In terms of deciding when to put the baby to sleep, I would feed hiim (I'm assuming it takes approximately 30-45 min?) then change his diaper and then let him stay awake for maybe 20-30 min more.  When my ds was an infant, he was very touchy and would sleep 18-20 hours a day so he was barely up for a full hour at a time.  I didn't really look at the clock when deciding to put him down for a nap.  When I saw him yawn, I'd put him in his room right away.

You need to find a wind-down routine that is right for your baby.  It depends on what he seems to like (classical music, for example?) and what calms him down.  That is essentially how you will be able to eventually put him in his crib and he will fall asleep.  He will learn to recognize that, after the wind-down routine, it is time to sleep.

Yes there are different stages of sleep.  I would consider him sleeping as soon as his eyes closed and he seemed calm.  I'm not a sleep expert so I won't say that I know how it all works.  However, it seems to me that my ds sometimes goes directly into a deep sleep (I adjust his pajamas or his sleep position and he doesn't budge) and sometimes he's in REM sleep (he's sleeping so lightly that I can easily wake him).  The amount of time spent in each varies but, typically, an infant will start off in REM sleep, which is the light sleep for 20 min, then go into the deep sleep for approximately 30 min.  Overall, the sleep cycles are about 40-45 min.

I really hope I answered your questions.  You ask good questions and, for more really in-depth answers, you should probably look at the next book Tracy wrote: The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems (by Teaching You How to Ask the Right Questions): Sleeping, Feeding, and Behavior--Beyond the Basics from Infancy Through Toddlerhood.  She goes into details about the information she wrote in her first book.  I had a LOT of questions after reading her book as well but, once I bought that second book, I was able to understand her technique more.

Also, you should look at Tracy's special sleep interview, which you can download from this site for free.

[M&M's Ima]

thanks again.
Here's another one:
Why does he sometimes wake up mid-cycle, like after 35, 55, or 65 minutes?
(I know his sleep cycles are about 45 minutes, cuz he wakes up then too.)

[Jaime]

and so you have any advice - if i have to do it every nap, how do i do it? i have a two year old running around! i tried yesterday to keep him out with toys adn stuff, but it just wasn't fair to him. he did great, but still managed to interrupt enough that it took me two hours. i cant do this to him every day, adn he will get sick of it fast.

i would say do the best you can.  i spent the bulk of my time trying to sleep train #2 during #1's afternoon nap.  that way, #1 was out of the way & asleep & taken care of & i didn't have to worry about her.

i would try to extend my #2's morning nap, but if he wasn't going back down after about 15-20 minutes, he got up & just had 2 short morning naps instead of 1 long one.

i know you're tired, but here's another thought for your older one... if he will play with his toys by himself while you get your baby down, you will come out & play with him while the baby's asleep - kind of a reward for #1 behaving so well.  it does mean you have to ignore cleaning laundry for a bit, but if it gets your older one to behave nicely, it's worth it!   

[M&M's Ima]

jaime, does it make sense that almost two and a half isn't old enough to understand ''play quietly now, get attention later"? when I try things like that, he just asks for the "reward" now!
Laundry and cleaning - hah! Gone are those days!  :lol:
How long did it take LO to learn to fall asleep if you only did it once a day?
and how did it not wake your big one?
what did you do the rest of the time? Did LO fall asleep at all?
Sometimes Menachem has to wait ALL afternoon til Meir's bedtime to sleep!!
But soon he will be sleep trained, on EASY, and life will progress SANELY!

[Jaime]

jaime, does it make sense that almost two and a half isn't old enough to understand ''play quietly now, get attention later"? when I try things like that, he just asks for the "reward" now!
[\quote]

makes total sense!     they do only understand instant gratification.  but the 2 year old should learn very quickly (like within a week) if you go out & play with him after the baby falls asleep.  talk to him ahead of time and tell him what will happen.  if he barges in on you, repeat what you said to him & return him to the other room.  i eventually got desperate, and installed a baby gate at the end of the hall.  that way, #1 could play right there & watch us, but she was far enough away that even if she decided to scream she didn't disturb #2.

it took me 6 weeks to teach luke how to nap.   :shock:  i think the bulk of that was because he is a Touchy.  i think if he'd been an angel/textbook baby it would have happened sooner. 

when he was little, his day looked someting like this:

8 - wake & eat
9-9:45 nap
10:30ish eat
11-11:45 nap
1 eat
1:30/2 ish nap - and work really hard to get the nap to extend to 4pm
4 eat
5:30/6ish - 45 minute catnap
7:15ish - begin bath & wind down & bottle for 8pm bedtime

instead of 1 long morning nap, he had 2 short ones.  for that last catnap, do whatever you have to so he will sleep (sling, swing, car, etc).  it will not adversely affect your sleep training.  i didn't believe it at first but it's true.

now, #2 was tired, so it usually wasn't too bad (maybe 15-20 minutes) to get him to go down.  i hate to advocate tv, but maybe you could sit Meir down with some blocks or crayons & the tv - but only at first, until he understands that you will be out to play with him in a little bit.  then you can slowly decrease the tv

or, if meir really needs to be with you, give him a baby doll & have him put his baby to sleep right outside the door.

hope this gives you some better ideas.   

[M&M's Ima]

all good advice. i appreciate it , and knowing we have similar struggles!

we don't have a tv! From a number of posts i'm gathering ds2 might be sleep trained by now if we had one! 

I did the same with a favorite song of his, though. He had quiet time with a bottle and the song on repeat and he lay on the couch so long i thought he'd fallen asleep!
(then he came into where i was putting the baby to sleep to tell me he was being quiet.  :lol: )

[M&M's Ima]

okay, so now i'm doing shh pat (or a close variation) and i spent the whole morning in his room. not because he couldn't fall asleep, but because he couldn't stay asleep. yesterday he slept three independent hrs from the start. today, he "tossed and turned" every five minutes!

1. what wakes him up two minutes after his eyes closed?
2. if he wakes up (opens eyes and even whines) on his way into deeper sleep, when he falls asleep again, is he starting from the beginning of the cycle?
3. Could his really long sleep last night have contributed to his sleepless morning? (i would have thoughtr the opposute)

[marlowho]

Just wondering... are you using a paci?  If you're not comfortable using one, I understand.  But I'm thinking it could be that yours has a strong sucking reflex and wakes up b/c of it?  (That would be my answers to 2 of your 3 questions.)  And the longer night sleep could be any number of things.  But keep up with what you're doing and hopefully you'll see that on a consistent basis.
For mine, they both as babies went back down so much better with a paci.  (And it isn't a "prop" in my book b/c they didn't wake up constantly for it- I only use it to extend naps and nighttime sleep.) -And I weaned Madeline of hers at 10 months and plan to do the same for Noel.
Just a quick suggestion in case it could help.
Also... we have realized how great yogurt covered raisins are to reward the older child.  They are a great incentive to Madeline to stay quiet while Mommy puts the baby down. She gets a handful and a play activity while I go in to settle, then she gets a few more when Noel has been put down.

Another thing I thought of- I'm wondering why you feel you have to be in the room so long while your baby is falling asleep?  I understand the pat/sh can sometimes take a while.  But if it's not working in 20 min., then( I hope I'm not giving wrong advice)  I always thought that meant you stopped trying for a little while.  Then come back to it later (like another 20 min.)  That way, they get the picture that "this is how I go to sleep."  And hopefully the sleep training won't take more than a week or so if you stay consistent. 
However (a big however)- when you have 2 children, there are times you must do what you must do.  And don't beat yourself up for it.  You are doing a wonderful thing if you are trying to follow Tracy's methods at all.  Just coming at things from Tracy's perspective helps children so much.

[deenz]

When you say you try pat/sh for 20min and then take a break from it - what do you do in that break?  Do you mean you pick baby up and walk around with her for 10min?  What happens if they then fall asleep during this 'break'?

[M&M's Ima]

Marlo, would love to use paci! any tips on how to get him to take it?! i guess i didnt try long enough, but he will have none of it! i'm sure he'd be sleeping fine if hetook one!! :x
\i'm trying to help him suck his fingers which he sometimes does.

the raisins are a good idea. today and yesterday i put on a tape a gave him a bottle of milk and that worked well. but of course, Baby was up in half an hour, just wanting to sleep again!

so in his room all morning meant that he would fall asleep within ten minutes, and i would stay a little to make sure he'd stay asleep. Tracy suggested in the interview to stay with them a few times to teach them how to go thru the full sleep cycle wthout waking. but even with me there, he woke, and my hand on his back s/times returned him to sleep, s/times not. then we'd start over. he'd fall asleep again within a few minutes, and wake again shortly.  :?
we did take a break once.

i'm at a loss as to how to help him stay asleep!

[marlowho]

Hon, you have way more patience than I.  There's no way I'd be staying in that room after the baby is asleep.  Also, mine are very light sleepers so they wake up even if I move too quickly.  (Also why I now have a fan blowing loudly in the hallway outside both of their rooms.)
 I would suggest getting out of the room and seeing if he can go through the stages on his own.  Don't rush in when he makes a peep or moves around.  Give it a few minutes.  I remember in one of Tracy's books saying sometimes you can give them up to 5 minutes to settle themselves back down.  (I've noticed this with both of mine-sometimes they would be crying kinda intensely but it would only last about 3 minutes then they'd be back sound asleep.)
As far as taking the break after the 20 min.  What I do is pick the baby up- sometimes staying in the same room if the baby looks sleepy and just walking around or rocking for a minute or so, then go back at it.  But if I'm feeling practically insane, then I put her in the bjorn carrier for a few minutes while I go wash a few dishes, fold laundry,etc...  Then go back to it when I'm ready.  If the baby falls asleep, all the better in my book.  Because I know I'll tackle the pat/sh on the next nap.  The key was that I never did the same thing during the break- so that even if baby fell asleep during the break- it wasn't something where she would get used to falling asleep a different way.  Now I did this for my sanity- if others can continue to pat/sh longer that's fine.  Though I do wonder about the older child if this had to continue for too long.  Again, when we Mommies have no help during these hard times we must do what we must do.  Just putting our children on a nap schedule- and sticking to it as best we can- is so wonderful for our lo's. 
And as far as the paci- I'm pretty vigilant.  I just keep trying it- holding the baby in the crook of my arm and holding the paci in with the other hand.  Doing this a few times a day helped Noel take it.  (Can you tell I really wanted her to take the paci?!) 
Anyway... hang in there!  Sounds like you're doing a wonderful job- but just don't get too hung up on it.  Our lo's can pick up on our moods, so being as relaxed as possible -and not worrying about this all working out perfectly is the best advice I can give.
(HUGS)!