totally confused

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

I have become obsessed with this website, so I decided to not turn on my computer for a few days and just listen to my son. I know I have entered several postings and have forgotten where I left off. However, I am certain that Gage and I are in a different place since then.

Now Gage is almost 12 weeks, and I am not sure where we stand in the whole sleep training process. Gage is on a 3 hr EASY and is bottle fed. We have been using the shh/pat method for about 6 weeks now, and I think he is ready to go to sleep on his own, but I am unsure.

He will often lay in his crib without crying and put himself back to sleep. This bothers me though because I dont know when to intervene. He will lay in there for a long time, and is starting to get a flat head.

Although he has graduated from 45 min naps to at least 1 hr sometimes more (knock on wood). He still is super crabby in the evening and i cant get one concrete bed time. When it is time to sleep he arches his back and cries. Is he ready for pu/pd?

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello, I know what you mean about being obsessed with this site - I think we all are!

You mention your lo is on a 3 hour EASY - could you post his routine for us? It might help to see if we can help you tweak it a little.

It sounds from your post as if you are being more successful than you think you are!

I think he is ready to go to sleep on his own, but I am unsure.

He will often lay in his crib without crying and put himself back to sleep. This bothers me though because I dont know when to intervene

I think that the best advice I can give you here is don't intervene. The BW sleep techniques are designed, not to get lo to sleep in the short term, but to teach lo to be able to get to sleep on his own. If he is in his crib, happy, and it's his S time, leave him. He may eventually surprise you and drift off on his own. (Obviously, if he starts to get upset, that's when you go in and intervene). If you are worried about the flat head, wait until he's asleep, and very gently move his head to a different position. But, TBH, my ds had a flat head before he started to roll about in his crib, and it's almost gone now.

He still is super crabby in the evening and i cant get one concrete bed time

How many naps does he have in the day? Maybe he needs a catnap to get him through until bedtime? On the bedtime front, does he have a specific wind-down routine? I know my lo was hell at bedtime until I instigated a bath/story/bottle routine.

Although he has graduated from 45 min naps to at least 1 hr sometimes more

Have you tried the wake-to-sleep method?

Sorry I have just thrown all this information at you at once. Can you post some more info for us, so we can help more?

Take care
Caroline xx

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

Thanks for your response! I have tried to extend his naps by helping him along when he wakes, but that just makes him more upset. Also, I have tried sneeking in and slightly waking him to restart his clock. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didnt. Plus it was making me crazy... setting the timer and the anxiety from creeping in gave me a stomachache. I decided to just go with his short naps until he grew out of it. Now it seems that he is working on his day time sleep and is neglecting his night time. I couldnt get him to sleep until 1 am last night

Sometimes he will fart around in his crib until his window is gone. I try to wait to see if he will fall asleep, but sometimes it will take twice as long to get him there because I waited for him. What do you think I should do?

His schedule is all over the place. The only thing that is really set is his eating, he eats every 3 hrs or so. Sometimes I will feed him a little ealy becuase he needs to sleep and I dont want him to be hungry. It also seems that after looking at my log, Gage wakes up after 8-9 hours of night sleep. Also, I cant get a dream feed in him because he falls asleep too late.

Here is the day before last's schedule (yesterday's with the 1 am beditme is not real typical)

5am  eat
no A time

7:30 eat
8:50 sleep

10:40 eat
12 sleep
12:45 wake/activity

1:20 eat
2:30 sleep
3:10 wake/farted around and no sleep

4:00 eat
5:00 sleep
5:45 wake

*This is where it all goes wrong. He can only be up for about 45 min and the wind down for bed. I think the late naps ruin his bedtime, but if I keep him up then he gets overtired... and that is AWFUL for him and us both! Also, I cut out bath time at night because I think it was overstimulating.

6:45 eat
8:15 sleep
9:30 wake

9:45 eat
11:30 sleep

Bedtimes are typically around 9:30 (if we are lucky) and 11

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello, sorry I haven't replied sooner, but it's been a hectic w/end! How are things going for you?

I've had a look at your schedule, and I just want to say that, for 12 weeks, you're doing really well (certainly better than I was!). To get him sleeping for that long overnight is great, and you're doing well getting him into a feeding routine. Have you tried the not jumping in to intervene yet? Did it work?

I'd like to direct you to read the Announcements at the top of this Naps forum, and specifically, the ones titled Teaching Sleep to Newborns and Young Infants and Teaching 3-5mos - to overcome the 45min naps to try to extend the 45 min naps, b/c it sounds like your lo may be overtired when it comes to bedtime. If he can be more rested in the daytime, bedtime may become a more relaxed affair .

I also want to stress the importance of a bedtime routine. Now, you know your lo best, so you are best able to come up with the best routine for him. If you feel a bath is too stimulating for him (and it was for my lo at this age - we implemented this when he was a little older), then try something else, maybe go to his room an hour before, with the lights on low, have a story, bottle, a song, cuddle, etc. This takes a few nights to work, but it lets him know it's bedtime, and he's much more likely to be relaxed when he knows what's happening.

I hope that helps, and any more problems, you know where we are!

Caroline xx

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

I am afraid to say it but.... my son has been falling asleep at nap time by himslelf! I am sooooo very proud of him! Actually, I am also very proud of myself for sticking with it and not listen to people suggesting the CIO method. Anyway, I did make another mistake last night. oI did not wake Gage from his 6pm nap yesterday. He was so tired I thought that he was out for the night. He slept 3.5 hours, then woke up every 3 hours after that. He did not actually sleep until 2 am! Then he was up again at 7pm.

We do have a wind down routine. Mabey I need to tweak it a bit.  I swaddle, turn on the humidifier, and turn out the lights. I used to rock him until drowsy, but he was cranky so I quit doing that. This made it harder for him to settle. Now, I just lay him down and tell him it is nap time and that I love him. Should I do more? I know he knows what is coming because when I swaddle him he starts getting cranky.

Should I have a separate routine for bedtime so he knows the difference between a nap and bedtime? I am afraid to do too much because he gets overstimulated really easy at the end of the day.

My other problem is that there always seems to be an hour left over at the end of the day before bedtime. I dont know what to do with that time. He needs a nap, but if I let him then I am in trouble. If i dont let him we are in bigger trouble! I know I shouldnt keep track of the clock, but I would love to have him on some sort of time schedule to avoid this problem spot. Maybe I should wait it out until he is ready.

Thank you for your help

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

Hi it is me again. We are still struggling. Naps are going pretty well now. Gage sleeps on his own and sleeps 1.5 hours which I wake him from. However, he still only able to be awake 1 hour max and that includes wind down and falling asleep time. As a result, he taking 5 or 6 naps. By the time 8 pm rolls around he is tired ( I can tell because he gets SUPER hyper) and I cant get him to sleep. For the last few nights he has been staying until very late.

He has also been getting up for a feed about 3 hours after falling asleep which is totally unsual. These feed times are different because they depend on when he falls asleep. I dont know if he going through a growth spurt or is this becoming a habit. I have tired shh/pat him back to sleep, but he gets more worked up. He does take a full feed though. I have been trying to increase he calories during the day, but he already eating in between 28-33oz . There is only so much you can get him to eat.

Anyway, it seems that nap time has REALLY improved, but now night time sleep is going down hill. I have tired putting him to bed earlier and he ends up waking up like he was taking a nap. 3 nights ago he fell asleep at 6pm and we thought that it was for the night. Nope! He slept 3 hours and then didnt go to bed until 2 am! I just dont know what to do.

Also, I have been leaving him in his crib, like you and I talked about. For bedtime, he will lay in there for hours cooing, laughing hysterically, and flinging his legs (he is swaddled). This is fine until he gets really overtired and eventually screams.

Is he getting too much day time sleep?

[mommyof2boys]

I'm not sure, but I don't think he's getting too much daytime sleep.  "Sleep begets sleep..." (Dr. Marc Weissbluth, another "sleep expert.")

Anyway, I'd let him go 2 hours for the naps and slowly stretch out the wake time.  It sounds like he's actually overtired still, despite the 1.5 naps.  Some babies need more.  Try VERY quiet activity for the last 15 minutes of awake time as you "stretch" it.

As for the waking to feed, we just went through that.  How old is Gage?

If he's about 4 months, I'm guessing it's a growth spurt.  Graham's lasted for longer than my first son's, clocking in at about 1.5 to 2 weeks!  Nothing I did during the day helped, so I just fed him at night and dealt with it.

Let us know how it goes...

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

Here is yesterday's schedule.

12:30am feed

6:30 feed
8:10 sleep

10:10 I had to wake him to eat 2 oz
bath
10:45 eat 3 oz
11:30 sleep

1:10 woke him to eat
2:00 sleep
3:30 wake

3:45 Eat
4:40 sleep
5:45 wake/eat

6:30 Sleep
7;30 wake
7:40 Eat

8:00 layed him in his crib
9:00 Played
9:10 tried to help 5 times

finally fell asleep at 11:30

1:30 reswaddle and feed 6oz

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

Mommyof2boys, I think you are right about "good sleep begets good sleep". I tried letting Gage sleep yesterday for as long as he needed and he went to bed and naps fine. He ended up having a 2 hour nap and 4 one hour naps and he went to bed at 9:20 by himself. He was only in his crib for about 30-45 min before falling asleep. I couldnt believe it! However, he did wake up an hour later wanting to eat, but fell back to sleep. I think it is because he thought it was another nap. I think if I keep laying him down at the same time each night, he will get the hang of it.

Thank you for the VERY valuable advice! Isnt funny how something so simple can make such a huge difference! I have always been afraid to let him sleep too long or too late in the day because he wouldnt sleep at night. Well he wasnt sleeping anyway so what the heck! I have tired everything else. Thanks again

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello again. I think you've had great advice there. I've learnt never to wake ds, b/c if he's asleep, it's b/c he needs it. If you're trying to get a lo to sleep, there's nothing worse than him being overtired.

I think it is because he thought it was another nap. I think if I keep laying him down at the same time each night, he will get the hang of it

Yes, that's a great idea. You're ds will have no idea that there's any difference between night and day unless you teach him, and that's a great way of doing it.

It sounds like you're doing really well, so keep at it, and don't worry if there's a regression (there almost always is), if you are consistent, it will work. Keep us posted!

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

I need help again. My son is still falling asleep on his own which is fantastic! But it seems that everything else is falling apart!

1. I am trying to extend his A time from 45 min to 1 hour, but I am not sure that I need to. Although my son starts whining like he is tired after an hour (that is when I have been laying him down), he doesnt fall asleep until between 1hour and 15 to 1 hour and 40. Am I putting him to bed too early? He is technically up for a good amount of time, so should I keep trying to extend his A time. Or should he actually be out of bed for that time?

2. I am trying to extend his A time because he naps for 45 min. I am not sure if this is helping, because he is just more crabby when he wakes up and ends up napping for 2 hours in the evenings.

3. He used to sleep through the night meaning 9 or 10 pm (that is the earliest I can get him to sleep because he has to nap around 7pm) until 6-7 am. Tracy says that if you say "used to" chances are the parents are doing something different. Now, he wakes up between 4-5 am drinking between 5-7 oz. I have tried upping his calories, but he could drink 30+ oz and still wake up.

4. Lastly, his 3 hr E is getting messed up. Because he is eating so much in early in the morning he doesnt eat very much in the middle of the day (3-4 oz) feedings. I also have been feeding him sometimes at 2.5 because his 45 min naps run into his naps.

What do you think I am doing wrong? I dont know how I am going to move him into a 4 hours EASY. He is almost 3.5 months. Help!

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

I just read a post from johnandzoesmom. She told another mother that the following are signs that your child is moving toward a 4 hr EASY.

Here are some signs of needing to transition:
1. Not taking as much at a feed (baby not as hungry at 3 hours...or in your case 3.5 hrs  )
2. Erratic Night Wakings
3. They are extending their awake times
4. Starts taking 45 minute naps


These are some of the things that Gage is doing. Except I dont think he is fully able to eat every 4 hours.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello again,

I'm sorry I have only just noticed that you needed more help. How are things going? Are you still having problems?

Please let us know if you still need answers to your questions, and I'm sure we'll do our best to help.

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

That is okay   I just posted a new thread. The correlation between extending A time and what "seems" to be indications of needing to transition to a 4 hour EASY.