How are you getting on - 45 minuters?

[FreddieEden]

Hi there Mias Mom, Mrs Rollins, tracefo, mommy of 2 boys, Tntsmama, corrina and alex (and everyone else who is fighting 45 minute naps),

Just wondered how you were all getting on.  I worked out my total failure to get any extensions must be due to Daniel needing a longer awake time so have been stretching awake times (with the help of DH who has been around) and just focussing on getting a long second nap of the day (which also conveniently coincides with lunchtime).  On Thursday I went in with the dummy and got my extended nap.  On Friday I didn't go in and Daniel woke up twice but settled himself just by grunting and finger sucking both times (though it took 20 minutes each time).  Both days I had the happiest baby in the world in the afternoon.  But yesterday, I left Daniel to settle himself but he didn't and I didn't go in quickly enough so ended up with a hopelessly overtired baby who screamed until his next feed time.  He was choking on his tears and after he finally got back to sleep and woke up, his poor little voice was all hoarse.  I felt like the worst mother in the world.  But he has been on great form this morning after a good night - all smiles at church.  We have been asked to be Mary and Jesus in the nativity play - they better not sing that carol that goes "the baby awakes but little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes".  Have tried a top up feed before putting him down today and we'll see how we get on...

Hope you are all doing well and fighting the good fight.

Freddie

[KellyC]

Hi Freddie

I know exactly what you mean when you try not to intervene but then realise too late that you should and the screaming just doesn't stop!  I'm also singing Away in a Manger to Zander lots at the moment and think how ironic that particular line is.

I've had a couple of successes with the 45 minute naps but I have to go in and start patting Zander at 35 minutes and continue until the hour point - if he gets past that point I usually end up waking him up for his next feed, this morning he slept for 2.5 hours!  The rest of the day's gone pretty poorly though as we've had to go out food shopping etc. and he's been getting more and more tired ... I have just delegated the pat/shushing to DH although I expect he's fallen asleep too, lullabys have that effect on him!

Good luck with your LO - who'd have thought naps could be so exhausting!

Kelly x

[Mia & Scarlett's Mummy]

Hi again Freddie

It helps to know you are not alone does it not?

Naps are still hit and miss with Mia and I've got a feeling they always will be.  She is a textbook/spirited baby and the spirited part applies mainly to her naps!

I know just what you mean about whether to intervene or not.  This weekend I've gone in each time she's stirred at 45 mins and stuck her dummy back in which has worked, although 1 time I heard her over the babycom and crept in just to see her self resettling herself and drifting back off.  I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, because it seems when I don't go in to resettle her she comes into full wakefulness and starts gurgling and cooing - and when I do finally go in she all smiles and kicking like mad cos she's pleased to see me so I have to get her up!

I don't know if I should be talking about this here and hope I don't get ticked off by the moderators but have you heard of the Gina Ford routines?  To be honest they work much better on Mia then E.A.S.Y.  I've come to realise that dd cannot sleep for 2 hours after being up for 2 hours in the morning after a full 12 hours sleep.  I think she hasn't been awake long enough to need that amount of sleep and so only goes for 45 minutes.  But then at lunchtime after being up another 1.5-2 hours she will go for 1.5-2.5 hours between 12 and 3pm and then another 45 minutes in the late afternoon as she is doing now.

I've started to give Mia a top up feed before each nap and that seems to help too.

Freddie - I know just what you mean too when you say you feel like the worst mom in the world.  That's exactly how I feel on occasion but I think they very fact we are all chatting in this way to one another about our LO's shows that we all just want the very best for them.

I'm 31 and the last out of my group of friends to have a baby.  When I talk to them about Mias 45 minute naps they look at me as if I'm mad.  I get responses like "Alex never slept at all in the day" and "Babies will sleep when they need it" "Let her sleep when she wants for how long she wants" "My 2 both screamed themselves to sleep at night they were so overtired". 

To be honest I don't know if their "advice" makes me feel better or worse.  On the one hand I think I'm turning into a 45 minute nap obsessive but I am learning to roll with it a bit more.  As she gets older she gets easier plus the fact she can stay awake longer too. I really think in 3 months time we won't be worrying about their naps - it'll be somethink else much more trying!!!!!

[mommyof2boys]

My little Graham's naps are hit and miss.  If he wakes up at the 40-minute mark, usually a few tries with the paci get him back to sleep.  However, if he goes an hour it's almost impossible to get him to drift off again despite the fact that he's still a bit sleepy and grumpy after a 60 minute nap.

I've started going in almost the moment I hear him stir and inserting the paci; just like with you guys, it seems that if I leave him to fuss too long he'll get too awake and won't go to sleep at all.  It's funny, though, cuz he goes to sleep without the paci.

BTW, has anyone had night waking issues lately?  I know Graham was waking for a growth spurt almost 2 weeks ago, but he's still waking and I don't think it's hunger.  I fear that giving him the paci during the day is making him want it at night.  He used to sleep through--at least till 5 or 6!  As I've mentioned before on this board, his arms are also coming unswaddled which seems to really bother him and cause wakings.

I appreciate the commiseration here--if anyone has any magic ideas for day or night, let me know!

(As an aside, my first baby was VERY touchy and I was stressed out for months over the naps and his constant fussiness.  I'm trying not to stress about it so much now (the nights are more of a problem at this point) and would encourage you all to take it one day at a time and know that "this too shall pass."  My first little boy is now a GREAT sleeper and a joy to be around--despite the fact that he fussed almost non-stop for 6 months!

[Matka]

Hello all!

Sean's naps have gotten a little better.  I think it's because I finally relaxed a little and quit trying to extend them.  It was making both of us EXTREMELY miserable!  I've adjusted his schedule to go with it and he seems to be doing great.  His first morning nap is 45 min.  This gives me just enough time to shower and get myself ready.  Then he has his bath and some low key activity time (we been listening to Christmas gregorian chants and he loves them!  Must be soothing.) and then he goes back down for another 30-60 min.  He does the same in the afternoon, but for the past week, at his 3:00 feeding, he goes right to sleep after his bottle and will sometimes sleep until 6:30!  In fact, I've had to wake him up everday because I don't want him to sleep too long!  It's been wonderful knowing I have a big block of time to get things done.  I've had to adjust my schedule too, but that's what being a mom is.  He has been really happy and seems to have found what works for him (for now!).  He has his dinner between 6:00 and 7:00, plays, goes down around 8:00 or 8:30, dream feed at 10:00 and sleeps through the night!  DH sat me down and told me that there is to much "you should do it this way" and not enough just finding what works best for you and your kid.  He reminded me that Tracy's message was to have a happy baby, and that as long as I'm doing what I can to make that happen, she wouldn't be "mad" at me for not following the rules exactly!  It sounds corny, but it really made senese to me.

[FreddieEden]

Glad to hear we are all relaxing a bit more.  I think this is the key.

Louise, 31 isn't old to be a first time mother!  I'm 32 (though we did wait 2 and a half years to get pregnant).  I know what you mean about advice from other people.  My parents always tell me I worry too much but I think their generation tend to remember their babies through a rosy haze.  The girls from my antenatal class also don't seem to worry too much about naps (they were saying the other day how much they disagree with the Baby Whisperer book on sleep).  But I guess I know Daniel  better than anyone and he is definitely a baby who finds it tough to sleep and a baby who gets upset if he doesn't get enough sleep.  Other babies can drop off wherever they are or manage on a lot less sleep without going into meltdown but that's not him and I have to do what is right for him.  I also think that just because their babies don't show signs of distress for not getting enough sleep then that doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from getting more than the odd 10 minutes in the car or on mum's shoulder.

I have got the Gina Ford book (someone from work lent it to me before I went on matenity leave).  I'm pretty much trying to stick to her feed times and the goal would be to get a long lunchtime nap out of Daniel the way she suggests.  We won't be able to get there for a while as he is not going through the night so can't do a two hour stretch first thing, which knocks everything off.  Plus he often wakes at 6.  For a while now he has been getting himself back to sleep and sleeping till 7.30 but it usually takes him a while and it can't be the same quality sleep as if he had slept right through.  Tried the formula but after three nights of us both getting really stressed then decided to give it up.  He hasn't really liked taking a bottle since about 8 weeks (despite the fact that before that we gave him one every other day and he was fine with it) and he seems really to  hate the taste of formula.  Doesn't bode well for going back to work when he is 7 months old but we'll deal with that as and when.

Today is going to be a tough day as he has had less night sleep than usual.  He had been doing pretty well and we were getting down to going 7 to 7.30 with one feed at about 3 or 4 am.  But for some reason it took him an age to drop off to sleep and then he woke up again at 8.30, couldn't get back to sleep and got pretty upset.  I ended up feeding him as we just couldn't get him to sleep any other way and I was just so worried about him running on a sleep deficit.  The rest of the night was OK.  But no chance of extending awake times today as he is pretty tired and miserable.  We'll just have to have lots of cuddles and get as many naps as we can...

Freddie

[Mom to M&M]

I don't have the Gina Ford book. How much awake time do they suggest for an almost 4 month old in the morning who sleeps through the night?

[bayneddie]

Hi
I have a 14 week old DD who until a couple of weeks ago was a confirmed 45 min napper. She hated pat/shush and i was loathed to try PU/PD so early so instead i tried the 'wake to sleep' thing that Tracy advocates for habitual night time wakings. I guess i actually did a cross between the pat shush and wake to sleep methods. I'd go in at 35 mins and just stroke her chest enough to rouse her slightly and then leave. She'd then get past the  'bump' and go off again for another 45mins-hour. She's now sleeping consistently 1 3/4 - 2 hours twice a day and a 45 min cat nap late afternoon (we're roughly on a 3.5 schedule). Don't know if that's what i was supposed to do but it seemed to do the trick. She either sleeps through the night or wakes once late on, no dream feed. All in all getting just over 15 hours sleep i reckon.
Hang in there all of you!

[KellyC]

Oooh, that sounds fab I might try it!  I've had some successes going in at 35 minutes and pat/shushing but I've had to keep going for 20 or 25 minutes and today it hasn't worked at all and it seems as if it's me waking him up!  I'll give that a go next nap time I think.  Did it work first time?

Kelly x

[FreddieEden]

Hi Marisa Mom,

Gina Ford would say naps at 9-9.45 and at 12-2.15 for a three to four month old who sleeps through the night and gets up at 7 (no nap at all in the afternoon).  But I think she provides for way too little daytime sleep, she's dealing with babies totally different to mine!  I would want as long as possible at lunchtime and a 45 minute nap in the afternoon, which is what she advocates for younger babies.  Also have to bear in mind that she is fairly controversial.  Her philosophy is to have pretty rigid schedules - no listening to the baby for her.  And she is an advocate of crying it out, which the Baby Whisperer books don't support.  I find her book very prescriptive and harsh and only really take little bits which are useful from it.  I think that's probably the best thing to do with most baby books - take what works for you and your baby.  Otherwise, you would go completely mad and feel really guilty all the time.

Freddie

[Mom to M&M]

Thanks Freddie - that sounds very harsh. I know someone whose baby is on that and no wonder her DS seems so tired all the time.

Yea - it's just a matter of seeing what works and going with the flow. I apply many BW theories and they work great - but often we have 45 minute naps regardless. Rather than obsessing over them, I'm trying to deal with it as best as possible - resettle her if she will or just go with it. But it's tough!

[bayneddie]

Zandersmummy
Yes i have to say hand on heart it did work the very first time. I was absoutely amazed and rang practically everyone i knew to tell them! I'd been so stressed out beforehand. Of course i could all be a fluke and perhaps DD was about to readjust to longer naps , who knows? It's been about two weeks now and i've only had one failure so far and i think i went in too late that day. When i got it wrong for the first nap the other two went pear shaped too. Shows you how important a good routine is!
Some days DD barely wakes at all and others she chunters to herself for about 15 mins before drifting off again. I've now stopped going in at all for the second nap and will be brave and leave her be during the first nap in a couple more days and see what she does.
I might add that she's always gone to sleep awake at night after feeds with no problem so she wasn't a complete novice at self-soothing, she just couldn't manage it in the daytime. Not sure why. If only they could talk!
Good luck with whatever you try

[Mia & Scarlett's Mummy]

Freddie I think we are singing from the same songbook here!

My one friend who told me that babies will sleep as and when they need it has an angel baby called Ruby who does just that.  When Ruby was 4 months old we took her with us for a pub lunch and my friend sat her on the floor in her car seat.  Ruby sat their as good as gold just staring at us and after a while dropped off to sleep without so much as a murmur.

Mia is coming up to 4 months and i know she is not capable of doing that.  Unlike Ruby she fights sleep during the day and if I don't persist in her having naps she is in a dreadful state by the end of the day.  Today she resisted me in having a catnap at 5pm.  In the end dh got her to sleep and my stomach was churning right up until she dropped off because I just knew what would have happened if she hadn't had that catnap - another bedtime where she screams herself to sleep.

I also follow the Gina Ford feeding times and am sort of hoping that Mia will take a lunchtime nap.  However, she seems to be working hard on organising her daytime sleep at the moment because no two days are the same.  Over the weekend she had long lunchtime naps but today instead of her just having a 45 minute nap at 9.30 this morning she extended it and I decided not to wake her - I spend half my life praying she will sleep longer than 45 minutes so when she does I'm not going to get her up, Gina Ford would not be impressed with me!

I like Gf's routines but like you I don't like the rigidity that comes with them and some of her beliefs such as CIO.  I use them more as a guideline and also think that she doesn't allow babies enough daytime sleep.  But I like the idea of a long afternoon nap and little catnaps morning and afternoon.

So anyway today she has had two 1.5 hour naps and a 45 minute catnap.  We will wait and see what tomorrow brings.

How is your LO getting on?  I hope you have had a good day with him.

[Mia & Scarlett's Mummy]

To bayneddie

My dd needs lots of help to nap during the day but like your LO most times I can put her in her cot wide awake and she will fall asleep independantly - I've oftem wished she could talk so she could tell my why!

My dh theory is that it's because it's the end of the day and she's knackered and has sleep on her mind.

Who knows.  If only Mia would read the baby whispering books all my problems would be solved!

[FreddieEden]

Well, no luck with extensions for the last couple of days but Daniel has been a real sweetheart so I don't really mind.  We are just going with the 4  45 minute naps and seeing how we go.  When I was pregnant, so far as I was able to see beyond the birth, I suppose I thought that I would have one of those babies who just drifts off wherever they are and I imagined being out and about a lot more than I am now.  But when I get that gummy smile which shows DS is so pleased to see  me (although half the time its when I'm trying to extend his nap), then it makes it all worthwhile.

F

[1sttime]

Hi al, we have just started the 45 min napping. My lo is 8 weeks old today. Sometimes if I just leave him he'll go back to sleep or just lay in there happy as can be. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do or not. He's having only 30min-45min of waketime, so I'm not sure if I should try harder to extend that. What does your routine look like if you're letting them do 45 min. naps? Sometimes I get him up and he's happy for about 30min and cries and cries until his next feed. I have one book that says 45 min. naps are a sign of hunger and to go ahead and feed them early. I'm so confused!! Sometimes he does seem hungry, but most of the time he just seems grumpy. I could use some advice- I don't really get the wake to sleep thing either.

[TnTsmama]

Well, thought I'd jump in on this as well.  Sounds like most of you are all doing so well working with your LOs.  I, on the other hand have temporarily given up on trying to extend naps.  My LO takes his 45 minute nap in the morning and wakes up happy as a clam.  As for the rest of the day, I just try to go with it and get him as much sleep as I can (in those 45 minute jaunts).  Lately I have been using the dreaded swing, because he will sleep in that for 2-3 hours in the midday.  I just can't spend hours trying to keep him asleep, when I have a toddler in the house to look after too.  I'm just going to go with it for now, and hope for the best.  Good luck to all of you.  You all seem to have more staying power than I do.  We'll see how long I last doing this...

[Matka]

Jenean,

I have to tell you I use the swing too for ds 3:00 nap.  He'll sleep until I wake him up!  I have to agree with you getting one long nap in is better than keeping him (and yourself) miserable with extensions.  Don't feel bad, not a day has gone by that I haven't thanked God for our swing!

[KellyC]

Hi Guys

We've had mixed successes this week.  Zander is now going to sleep independently at night (and staying asleep!) and has once gone down for his nap in exactly the same way.  I was very impressed, particularly as for that nap I went in and turned him on his back at 35 minutes so he stirred and he stayed asleep for a full 2 hours, yay!  I've tried it again since but don't think I disturbed him enough as he still woke after 45 mins. This morning something woke him before I had to chance to try and extend his nap but I got him up after 45 mins as he seemed happy - this didn't last and I was having to use PU/PD / Pat/Shush to get him back to sleep about 20 minutes later!  It's 11am and I'm not even dressed yet (so why, you may ask, am I on here!!).

Good luck for the next few days, we shall remain calm at all times!!

Kelly x

[bneydgrl]

Frequent lurker sometimes poster here

Hi I'm rebecca and I'm the mother of a 45 min napper...Hi Rebecca (a la 12 step program)

Well that's how I felt at least when we started out with this nap stuff just a while over three months agao (ella was born 8.26).   I initially made the mistake of reading Babywise and was so frustrated with myself and her because I didn't understand why we couldn't DO IT BY THE BOOK!!! Think you have a textbook mom here?

Well I discovered Tracy Hogg's books and that only reinforced the..WHY CAN"T WE DO IT BY THE BOOK as far as naps.  And for a little over a week I drove myself crazy trying to extend naps,wake to sleep....sleeping on tummy, pat shush..all of it.   And then I realized..hey...I need to just listen to Ella.   

One book I really do like regarding sleep is Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child.  Basically because it made me feel like we (ella and me) weren't doing anything wrong.  And I realized her sleep patterns will emerge when she's biologically ready to.  Sort of like they'll walk when they are ready, talk when they're ready...it will just happen when they're ready.  I learned to read her sleepy cues and not keep her awake for more than two hours.  I felt a lot better just rolling with it and not stressing so much.

Now we have a rough routine that she sleeps pretty much from 7-7.  She takes her first nap at 9 and then if all of her naps are 45 min - 1  hr she naps again at 11, 1, 3 and five.   She is starting to put together a longer afternoon nap....and yes she is in a better mood when she does this vs. a 45 min one...and I'm sure the morning one will come along in it's own time too.   Some days I feel a bit limited because I want her to be able to nap in her crib and not 'on the run' but in the end she gets the sleep she is 'supposed to get' during the day, is well rested for the night and is a happy baby...which equals a happy mom.

I do like BW for teaching me to listen to her and for some of the ideas of feeding schedules and soothing routines.   We now have our nap routine down to ten minutes -- a diaper change, quick lullaby, pat shush while rocking for five minutes and then she's down with minimal if any crying.

ALLLL that being said...it is nice to know that there are other moms who are 'struggling' with the 45 min naps.  And it's nice to read that many of you like myself have just surrendered to the 'terrible' 45 min nap and are keeping the faith that our bebes will get that morning and afternoon nap down thing...eventually!

[FreddieEden]

Rebecca - your post really made me laugh.  I always get terribly disappointed that Daniel doesn't have the same timetable for his day as me in mind.  Everything I have done previously in life involved getting neat solutions from books and being a mum just isn't that easy!  I've got the Healthy Sleep Habits book too (I have all the books) and thought it was pretty good.  I'm not sure what Babywise is but I have seen it criticised on lots of pro breastfeeding and attachment parenting type sites so I assume it must be the US equivalent of Gina Ford.  The good news is that Daniel has settled himself back to sleep and taken a nap of 2 hours plus at lunchtime for 2 days running now.  I've seen enough posts from other people not to expect that this is the end of the 45 minute nap.  I expect there will be regression and he will scream his head off in the afternoons again (probably in the next two days when we have visitors!) but this is a good start.

Freddie

[PeepersMom]

Hi - I too have a short napper. 

Sometimes just 20 minutes.  Brings me to tears.  I have been trying extending naps with pat/shush for 4 weeks and have only had success with it taking less and less time to extend with most naps, and the others just simply won't extend at all.  I am now down to taking 10-20 min to extend a nap. (vs 45-60min!) and pretty much if he doesn't show signs by then he won't nap longer.  He has started pitching a Royal fit after 20 min if he isn't willing to sleep longer.  That is new, too.  He used to just fuss.  But at least I know his limits now.

I feel the biggest reason for our problems is our prop the pacifier.  DH and I have set a date to take it away and frankly I think our night times will come together as well.  A week from tomorrow is the day.

I am still exhausted but it is much easier on my back to give up after 20 min.

I am very disappointed, though.

Freddie - the babywise books are very much scheduled - more than babywhisperer.  And if the baby doesn't want to eat when you tell them it is time, well then they missed a meal.  And if they are hungry early, they have to wait.  This is even with tiny newborns.  No demand feedings aloud even during a growth spurt.  It is criticized for causing many cases of  failure to thrive in otherwise healthy babies and homes.  I have seen it happen with a friend of mine who had a 9 pound 3 month old who was as far as I was concerned lethargic (she was full term and 6lbs 7 oz at birth).  She used babywise and was happy to say her baby slept through the night by 6 weeks.  Well, clearly that baby shouldn't have been!  She needed to eat.  And many breastfeeding moms note that their milk supplies diminish on this routine.

If you do a google search on it you will see all the research studies on why it is a bad idea.  Over scheduling a baby can be very bad.  And not listening to your baby is worse.  I know that critique was harsh, but like I said, my friends baby - well I was shocked.