Rubbing eyes when waking up from naps

[mom2william]

This is a nap problem my almost 9 month old has had for some time.  Wondering if anyone can help!  Sometimes, he wakes from either his morning or afternoon nap cooing (this is after sometimes over an hour).  I go get him thinking he is done w/ his nap.  As I'm changing him or even sometimes 30 minutes after I get him up from the nap, he is rubbing his eyes.  I think he's still tired and maybe I got him prematurely??  Do babies sometimes coo and then fall back asleep even after being asleep an hour or longer?  I just am not sure if this means I need to leave him in his crib an additional 30 minutes or so to make sure he's awake and not going to go back to sleep.  This happened this morning and he now seems to be overtired for his afternoon nap. 

Thanks for any advice! 
Suzanne
William born 3/23/05

[Meg's Mom]

How long are his naps?  Have you tried holding back and seeing what he does?

[mom2william]

Thanks for replying, Michelle!  Well, his naps have always been absolutely terrible for the most part.  I have the worst time figuring out what his ideal wake time is!!  His naps range anywhere from 30 minutes to sometimes over an hour.  RARE days he sleeps close to 2 hours.  I know he is not getting enough day sleep (he hasn't since he was about 3 mos. old) because he is usually overtired during the day.  By that I mean he either takes too short naps (wakes crying) or seems tired after his naps.  I have tried waiting 30 minutes or so after he wakes and he doesn't really seem to go back to sleep.  But mostly I don't wait that long b/c I admit I am usually needing to get somewhere during his wake time!  I thought if he was talking then he is "up" and I need to get him. 

What would you suggest?  I am in desperation to get him on a better schedule!  He is having to go to bed around 6:00 to 6:30 b/c he is so exhausted by days end.  His tired signs are difficult to read and I don't know what to do to change this cycle of too short naps!

Thanks for any and all suggestions!
Suzanne

[Meg's Mom]

Let's start by posting your schedule and also can you tell me what your nap wind down looks like.

[mom2william]

OK, I will try and not be too lengthy!  Our schedule is truly varied- that's another problem I am REALLY struggling with.  But here goes:

6:00-7:00am Wake up
7:15am BF
8:00am Solids
9:00 or 9:30am Nap #1
10:00-11:00am Wake up (depends on length of nap.  This nap is usually longer than his PM nap.  Sometimes, though, it lasts only 30 min!)
11:00 BF
12:00 or 12:30 Lunch (solids)
1:00 or 1:30 Nap #2 (anywhere from 30 min. to 1 hour.  Occasionally has been 1.5 hrs.)
2:00-3:00 Wake up
3:00-3:30 BF
5:00-5:30pm Solids
6:30-6:45pm Bedtime (sleeps 11-12 hours straight)

I am having more than a few problems with the daytime sleep!  I would prefer it if he awoke in the AM around 6:30-7:00am.  However, I think he is waking up much earlier and not talking to let us know some days.  Also, b/c I don't want to get up at 6:00am, if I hear him talking then, I will just ignore him and he usually goes back to sleep.  Per DH, this is maybe a problem b/c he says that DS is ready to get up and I should get him up when I hear him.  Take this AM, I didn't hear him talking or anything so I always get him up by 7:00am.  I went and got him and he wasn't too happy, like he was going back to sleep and I interrupted him.  He also rubbed his eyes around 7:50am and was fussy but I kept him up 'til almost 9:00 b/c I'm trying to keep on a schedule.  I am really struggling with setting naptimes b/c I don't really know what his ideal wake times should be.  Everyone I know tells me to stick with 9:00am for the AM nap and 1:00pm for the PM nap but doesn't that change slightly as they get older and can handle more awake time??  I'm totally confused!!!!  Thus, his naptimes are all over the place.  Usually, though he sleeps by 9:00-9:30 in the AM but the PM nap can vary anywhere from as early as 12:30 to sometimes 2:00.  That is usually due to him being overtired from having a bad AM nap.  A couple of days last week, he simply wouldn't fall asleep in the PM (overtired???) and when he FINALLY did, he had a 45 min. nap and woke up crying.  (I left him in his crib about an hour and a half and he just talked and talked then went to sleep)

As for how he goes down, I try to look at tired signs as well as the clock.  A lot of times he doesn't show tired signs though, which is frustrating.  In the morning he will but the afternoon he really doesn't.  I change his diaper, pull the window shade and then we'll read a couple of books and listen to the same lullaby CD.  I try to walk around his room w/ him but sometimes he just really fusses when I do this so I go ahead and put him in his crib.  He can put himself to sleep easily but has problems not getting all he needs!  By days end, he is usually exhausted and rubbing his by 5:30-5:45pm.  I think his bedtime should be later (more like 7:00) but it's hard when he seems so tired to push him to that.

I know I'm not "reading" him and that he is exhausted so somethings gotta give!  I have struggled so long with him being overtired during the day...months!  I have read a lot on this board and am still so confused.  Any and all advice would be MOST appreciated!    Suzanne

[PeepersMom]

I am by no means good with scheduling, but I wanted to answer your first question.

My son is younger - 4.5 m - but he wakes early from every nap usually around 30 min and he just opens his eyes and lets out a couple coos.  I go in and soothe him back to sleep with pat/shush and for now pacifier (we're taking it away this weekend :shock: )

He always goes back to sleep if I have  a long enough wake up time (needs to be close to 2 hours) and sleeps at least another hour.

Yesterday he slept his other hour and I heard him so I just went in to get him.  He was up a good 10 min - yawning but he always yawns - so I ignored.  Then he started crying which is unusal for him.  He doesn't cry a whole lot.  So I gave him his pacifier and walked him back to his crib.  He was still tired and slept another HOUR.  I was shocked.

So I guess my point is that yes they can wake up happy and still need more sleep.   But I, like you, would be surprised by this after an hour and a half nap. 

I have set a limit of 1h30 min minimum crib time whether he is awake or not, so if he sleeps for 30 min wakes up and I take 20 min to get him back to sleep he still needs to be in the crib for at least 40 more minutes.  Usually it ends up being longer.  And usually he really is happiest with at least 1h30 probably 2.

My thoughts.

[mom2william]

Thanks for your input, Meg.  It is harder since my son is older b/c he doesn't always fall back to sleep as easily.  Or maybe I just don't know how to get him there  :roll:   I appreciate your support, though!  When I talk about trying to stay on a schedule, I struggle w/ this so much b/c my son takes bad naps or not enough of a nap at times so when I try to keep him up 'til the next "set" naptime, he is already overtired and will not nap as well!  He does well if he gets about 1 1/2 hours in the AM believe it or not.  This AM, he only slept an hour (due to having a big ole poop and couldn't go back to sleep) and was rubbing his at 12:00pm (he got up at 10:00am or so).

I'm hoping Michelle will help me out so I can get this nap thing going better!

[Meg's Mom]

Hi, sorry for the delay...my LO has had the stomach flu and now i have it...i will read and try to get back to this weekend...hang in there :-)

[Meg's Mom]

We too had nap troubles again at 9mos.  I pulled what i wrote in a post and what we did:

We just spent the past 3 days re-training - my plan:
* have set times for naps 9.30 & 2.00 (although now that she is sleeping longer i will try 2.30).
* ensure she is relaxed but awake before putting her into the crib
* when she woke early, use shh/pat for just a few minutes
* let her re-settle herself. NOT CIO but let her put herself to sleep again. Re-checking/re-settling if she was really upset.

IT worked!  The past 2 days her am nap has been 1.45 and her pm 1.15 (we are still working on this one).

You said you are stuggles w/ sleep cues - classic: yawn, rub eyes or other signals: twirl hair, get glass eyed, wines, moans.

Typical awake times  (yes they get later as they get older! you are correct!! :wink: )
2.5-3.0 after am wake up – 1.5hr for 9 month old and 1hr for 12 month old
3.00 after end of am nap – 1.5-2.0hr for 9 month old and 1.5hr for 12 month old

So
7am wake
9.30-10.00 am nap wake no later then 11.00-11.30 depending on age and start time
1.00 or 2.00 pm nap wake no later then 4pm
7.00-7.30 bed

IMO:
Your plan
*extend A times by 15min every couple days until you reach the suggested A times then stick to the set times
*keep using shh/pat when wakes early and give him time to re-settle himself.

I hope that helps, let me know if you have any questions.

[mom2william]

Thank you so much for your reply, Michelle!!  It helps to get some clarification.  I do have some questions, however.  OK, so I don't have a problem sticking w/ set naptimes but have some specific questions re: this.
1.  When you say to use pat/shh to get him to go back to sleep for a longer nap, I thought that technique was for only for younger babies.  If I should use it, is there a sticky or something I can read about this technique? 
2.  I've been leaving him when I hear him after he sleeps for 1hr 15min or so in the AM.  He just doesn't go back to sleep but is tired by 12:00 or so.  He doesn't cry just talks and will not sleep anymore.  Do I try to extend this nap??  The same things happens w/ his 1:00pm nap.  He'll sleep an hour maybe 1hr 15 min and then will simply not go back to sleep.  He just talks or fusses.  How would you extend these naps?  To try to get him better rested should I put him down when he's tired for now and then gradually work on getting him to 1:00 pm?
3.  To help w/ the early waking, do you put your child to sleep early (like he's tired by 5:30pm most days) to help their sleep deficit or just keep them up 'til close to 7:00pm?  The other problem is that we have no idea when he is waking up b/c he doesn't talk or anything.  He's just sleepy by 7:30/8:00am. 
4.  So to summarize, I am still so confused about how I get him to good awake times if he is not getting enough sleep in his naps!  I guess I need to try to extend the naps???  He's fine if I leave him be, he just never will go back to sleep even though I know he's tired b/c he's exhausted by 5:30pm.  Should I work on extending the naps first and then work on extending his awake times to get to 9:00 and 1:00 pm naps? 

Sorry to be so long winded but I am new to figuring out how babies sleep and need it spelled out for me!

[mom2william]

To clarify my previous post, in point #2 what I meant to say was that when he sleeps for about an hour to 1 hr. 15 min. in the AM, I try to leave him for about 30 or so more minutes to make sure he got enough sleep b/c of when I've gotten him sometimes he's still rubbing his eyes.

Sorry!
Suzanne

[Meg's Mom]

1.When you say to use pat/shh to get him to go back to sleep for a longer nap, I thought that technique was for only for younger babies. If I should use it, is there a sticky or something I can read about this technique?

Not just for younger babies, I still use shh/pat when my LO is really upset and needs help resettling.  And she still responses well to it.  The difference now vs. when she was young – now… once she is calm, I pat for only a minute and then leave.  Letting her settle on her own the rest of the way.  I’ll look for a good post for you to read. 

2. I've been leaving him when I hear him after he sleeps for 1hr 15min or so in the AM. He just doesn't go back to sleep but is tired by 12:00 or so. He doesn't cry just talks and will not sleep anymore. Do I try to extend this nap?? point #2 what I meant to say was that when he sleeps for about an hour to 1 hr. 15 min. in the AM, I try to leave him for about 30 or so more minutes to make sure he got enough sleep b/c of when I've gotten him sometimes he's still rubbing his eyes.

Are you sure he is tired?  Not bored or hungry.  I would focus on extending you’re A time.  If he still wakes at the 1.15hr mark, give him 30min then go about your day until the next nap time.

The same things happens w/ his 1:00pm nap. He'll sleep an hour maybe 1hr 15 min and then will simply not go back to sleep. He just talks or fusses. How would you extend these naps? To try to get him better rested should I put him down when he's tired for now and then gradually work on getting him to 1:00 pm?

Again focus on extending the A time.  NO, I would not put him down when you think he is tired, IME he is taking the short naps because he isn’t tired enough.  It’s like, I have only been awake a short time so I only need a short amount of sleep.

3. To help w/ the early waking, do you put your child to sleep early (like he's tired by 5:30pm most days) to help their sleep deficit or just keep them up 'til close to 7:00pm?

I will put her down to early (30-60min) on the ODD day, but if you do it everyday they will then start shifting the am wake up and the cycle continues.

The other problem is that we have no idea when he is waking up b/c he doesn't talk or anything. He's just sleepy by 7:30/8:00am.

The only thing I can think of for this problem is get up at 6am and check on him.

4. So to summarize, I am still so confused about how I get him to good awake times if he is not getting enough sleep in his naps!

You will need to extend the A times gradually, it will be rough for a week or so.  But THEN the naps will extend on there own.  You won’t need to extend them, focus on extending the A times.

I guess I need to try to extend the naps??? He's fine if I leave him be, he just never will go back to sleep even though I know he's tired b/c he's exhausted by 5:30pm. Should I work on extending the naps first and then work on extending his awake times to get to 9:00 and 1:00 pm naps?

NOPE, other way around.  I don't mean to harp, but you said spell it out for you.  Focus on extending his AWAKE Time and he will start taking longer naps w/ you having to do any more then that one thing.

I don’t mind answering questions, at least I know someone is listening when I post –hee, hee.  So if you have any more questions fire away.

[mom2william]

Michelle,

Thank you, Thank you, thank you for all your advice and taking the time to talk to me about this!!  I am about to go crazy w/ trying to get this nap stuff figured out.  I haven't had a chance to see if your suggestions are going to help just yet.  The early morning waking is messing all his naps up and he's becoming overtired.  That's another issue, though!  I do have some more questions:

1.  If on the ODD day that he slept 'til 11:00 or 11:30 for his AM nap, would you push him out 3 hours from the time he woke up or just keep to the time I usually put him down which is around 1:00pm or 1:30??  Today I THOUGHT he took a 2 hr. AM nap b/c I never heard anything on the monitor.  However, he was totally rubbing his eyes at 12:30pm (I had only gotten him up at 11:00am.  This makes me think he was doing a fake sleep!  I mean he was up but just quiet).  He was totally ballistic and had a TERRIBLE time going down and finally fell asleep at around 2:20pm.  (only slept again for 1hr. 10 min.)

2.  Yesterday, he slept from about 9:00am to 10:20am.  He never acted tired even when it was 1:30pm.  I saw no yawns, eye rubbing, etc.  He wasn't fussy.  Should just wait until I see tired signs even if it's been 3 hours?

I have so many other questions about scheduling his naps, etc. but I'll keep it to those two and see what you think.  I am putting him to bed around 7:00 still even though he's exhausted from not napping well.  I'm struggling so much if I should just put him down when he's tired at this point (for naps) even though I know you said to stretch him out.  I guess I keep thinking if I could get him better rested he'd be able to stretch himself.  He just is getting out of control and won't even eat solids sometimes b/c he's so tired!!  HELP! 

Thank you Michelle, you are a godsend!  MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[Meg's Mom]

You are welcome, welcome :-)

1. If on the ODD day that he slept 'til 11:00 or 11:30 for his AM nap, would you push him out 3 hours from the time he woke up or just keep to the time I usually put him down which is around 1:00pm or 1:30??

I would watch him and if doesn't look tired, then keep up closer to the 3hr mark.

Today I THOUGHT he took a 2 hr. AM nap b/c I never heard anything on the monitor. However, he was totally rubbing his eyes at 12:30pm (I had only gotten him up at 11:00am. This makes me think he was doing a fake sleep! I mean he was up but just quiet). He was totally ballistic and had a TERRIBLE time going down and finally fell asleep at around 2:20pm. (only slept again for 1hr. 10 min.)

Could it be he wasn't tired and that is why he went nuts on you?  Maybe rubbing his eyes is a fake out  :? .

2. Yesterday, he slept from about 9:00am to 10:20am. He never acted tired even when it was 1:30pm. I saw no yawns, eye rubbing, etc. He wasn't fussy. Should just wait until I see tired signs even if it's been 3 hours?

yes, push it a bit, maybe 15-30min if he doesn't look tired.

I guess I keep thinking if I could get him better rested he'd be able to stretch himself.

He will only stretch himself if he is tired enough.  He can only get better rested is he taking longer naps which he will only do if he is tired enough. 

Thank you Michelle, you are a godsend! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

  Oh, you are making me blush , but thanks and Merry Christmas to you and your's.

How have things been the past few days?  Have you tried what i suggested?

[mom2william]

Ohhh travelling for Christmas, what a joy...NOT!!   :cry:   I haven't been able to try any of your suggestions b/c we've been out of town and it was HORRIBLE to say the least w/ naps.  I will say, however, that the couple of days I have tried to keep him up 'til about 3 hrs. from when he got up, I didn't see a difference.  That is why I keep thinking maybe he is getting up earlier than I think and is already tired??  Today we were back at home.  I did hear him this morning at 5:00AM or so but didn't check to see if he'd gone back to sleep and didn't hear him again 'til around 6:15AM.  I got him up at 6:30am since he was still talking.  He was fussy this morning and I did see him yawn once around 8:00am or so.  I put him to bed around 9:15am.  I never did see any more tired signs.  He fell asleep around 9:20 and only took a 40 min. nap and woke up crying and he is practically impossible to settle when he wakes up like this!  He simply WILL NOT go back to sleep.  That's what I mean.  I can never figure out if he's overtired when he takes these 40 min. naps or what.  He took about an hour nap this PM and is exhausted and it's only 4:30pm!!  He woke up crying again from his afternoon nap.  What do you think??  I know you said to keep him up but as I said, today he was up close to 3 hrs. (before AM nap) and nothing doing.  I guess I am skeptical b/c he has always had such a difficult time w/ naps.

[Meg's Mom]

Hi, I haven't forgotten about you...I have asked our board for their input as I want to make sure we get you the right answer/help.

How are things now - same, better, worse...

that the couple of days I have tried to keep him up 'til about 3 hrs. from when he got up, I didn't see a difference.

I did want to say though, it takes 2 weeks to change an infants bio-rhythm so a couple days won't always tell you if you are heading in the right direction.  I always recommend sticking w/ a new method or tech. for at least 2 weeks before changing, or you will confuse the poor wee thing.  He needs time to “get it”…kwim??

[Taylor's Mommy]

I am reading through both pages right now and will get back to you shortly.  Our lo's are close in age so hopefully I can help.

[Taylor's Mommy]

HI Williams Mom,

So I have read all the notes and I truly think all of Michelle's advice has been wonderful.  To add a few things though:

1. It is impossible to extend Taylor's naps now that she is older.  pat/shush, pu/pd, wake to sleep and all the other techniques that worked like a charm before she was 6 months will absolutely not work on her.  I have tried pu/pd for 45 minutes days on end, and it just ends up with a very sad and tired baby and mommy.  When taylor reverts back to short naps, the ONLY thing that fixes them is adjusting awake times and once we get the right A time going, she goes back to normal.  so it sounds like william may be like Taylor, so he may not respond to "extensions".  Which means you have to move on with your day and try for tomorrow.

2. I strongly believe that at 9 months he can handle a 3 hour A time and just needs a little extra help from mom to adjust his internal biological clock.  Right now at 8.5 months our a times are:

3 hours in the am making first nap at about 10 am.  She will usually sleep for about 1-1.5 hours (I don't let her sleep longer than 1.5 hours as it will affect her afternoon nap).

3.5 hours in the afternoon making her 2nd nap about 2:30/3:00 pm.  She will then usually sleep till 4ish and bed at 7ish.

****For the last 3 days she has been taking a 30 minute afternoon nap  :evil:   I racked my brain and remembered that most of the time at this age a 30 minute nap is because they were overtired.  So I put 2 and 2 together and rememberd taht she has been doing a lot of stuff developmentally this week (sitting up on own, standing up on own, crawling for real), so by the time her 2nd nap came around she was overtired.  Today I shaved 15 minutes off of both A times and voila!  A 1 hour 15 minute am nap and a 1.5 hour pm nap!     So the moral is that when sick, learnign something new, etc., A times may need to be readjsuted for a few days.

SO, I think you need to stick with increasing A time, which by the way, are you doing it 15 minutes every few days???  If not, and you are trying at the 3 hours straight away he will get overtired and will have a battle.  So slowly increas the A time to the 3 hour goal over the next week or so.  Also, keep the extra A time VERY MELLOW.  Walk outside, or around the house.  Play on the floor in his room.

Also, like michelle said, it can take 2 weeks to reset a clock, so please give it some time.

That is all I can think of right now.  Let me know if you have any other qusetions.

I did want to say that I think it is awesome that you are working so hard at trying to do what is best for ds.  You sound like a great mom!

[mom2william]

THANKS so much both Michelle and Andrea!!  Things are about the same on my end with DS's naps.  He is sleeping really good in the AM, actually took a 2 hr. AM nap and a 1.15 minute nap in the PM the other day.  I am trying to do what you have suggested and working on the awake time gradually.  It's hard b/c some days he seems tired 2.5 hrs after his AM nap and some days at the 3 hr mark he seems OK.  Is that normal??  I guess it all depends on how the AM nap went.  I still (sorry  ) have a few more questions... as always! 

1.  Is is OK for them to take a 2 hr. AM nap?  I know it's a bit long and may interfere w/ the PM nap but just wondering.  It doesn't happen often, that's for sure.

2.  He still seems really tired by 5:00pm most days.  I know at this point the third nap isn't really a good thing.  Is it messing him up to just keep him up 'til 7:00pm even if it means he's up for 4-5 hrs. after his PM nap?  Andrea, what do you do on the days Taylor takes a 30 min. PM nap?

I am going to continue to increase his awake time GRADUALLY.  Thanks for reminding me that it takes a couple of weeks to see results.  I am guilty of trying to get him to 3 hours immediately and it has backfired!  I often forget that it takes babies (and grownups!) time to adjust to new schedules/situations.  Unfortunately, this coming week, he has 2 appointments so he may not have good naps those days but I'm going to keep at it on our "normal" days.
I appreciate all the help!  It makes me feel so good to read the struggles others have on this site and to know I'm not a neurotic mom but just want my DS to be well rested! 
___________________
Suzanne
William born 3/23/05

[Taylor's Mommy]

HI THere,

sorry to just get back to you today, but was quite busy over the new years holiday and had guests in town.  Anyhow, to answer your questions:

1. Is is OK for them to take a 2 hr. AM nap? I know it's a bit long and may interfere w/ the PM nap but just wondering. It doesn't happen often, that's for sure.

Yes, I think it is okay, but keep in mind that it may mean a short afternoon nap.  At least that seems to be the case many times with Taylor.  So to kind of keep things running smoothly, I usually don't let her sleep longer than 1.5 hours in the AM.

2. He still seems really tired by 5:00pm most days. I know at this point the third nap isn't really a good thing. Is it messing him up to just keep him up 'til 7:00pm even if it means he's up for 4-5 hrs. after his PM nap? Andrea, what do you do on the days Taylor takes a 30 min. PM nap?

4 Hours of A time before bed is actually not that uncommon at this age.  I know it seems a little bit much and sometimes I am still skeptical, but usually go with the flow and am always surprised at how well she handles it.  If she is definitely getting overtured than I will put her to bed by 6:30 or 6:45 and it helps a lot.

Let me know if you have anymore Q's!

[Meg's Mom]

Thanks Andrea, beat me to it...we too have guests from Scotland visiting  right now.

I completely agree w/ Andrea - keep at it, be consistent and he will get the hang of the new schedule.

Keep us posted on your progress!

[mom2william]

Thanks to you both SOOOOOO much.  All your advice helps clarify things a lot for me.  I will keep you updated...hopefully things will progress and he'll get better w/ the extended awake time!  Happy New Year!   
________________________
Suzanne
William born 3/23/05