Is extending naps messing up night sleeping?

[melbatarseh]

I've been using the information in the announcement about extending a babies naps past 45 minutes for the last three days, and it's worked great.  My 5 1/2 month old has gone from 2, 30 minute naps a day to 2, 1 1/2 hour naps a day with very little effort on my part.  I just go in at the 25 minute mark and help her through REM by shading her eyes with my hand (this is how I get her to go to sleep initially too).

But night time has gotten crazy!  She's waking up more, it's harder to get her settled back down, and last night I couldn't get her to go to sleep initially, which has never happened before.  I nurse her to sleep (I know this is a no-no, but I've been doing it since day 1 and it's always put her to sleep), but last night it didn't put her to sleep.  My husband soothed her for an hour like we would normally do for nap, and she finally fell asleep.

Is it possible that she really only needed 2, 30 minute naps a day, and now she's getting too much daytime sleep?  Does she just need to adjust to this new amount of sleep?  Should I move her bedtime later?  Could it all just be a coincidence?  Her night time sleep has been a bit worse in the last few weeks than it had been, it just really got bad in the last three days.  There was also a really loud storm last night they whole time we were trying to get her to sleep, maybe that was it?

Even if she doesn't need more than a 30 minute nap, I need more than 30 minutes of time to myself, so I really want her to nap longer, but not at the expense of sleeping at night.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello, welcome to the boards!

You've already given us some great info, but could you please post your routine for us? We may be able to help you tweak it a little for a better night's sleep

Just an initial thought, though, it's unlikely that it's the extended naps that are the problem. A 5 1/2 month old needs much more than 2x30 mins naps a day, and the fact that you've extended it considerably without much difficulty is probably a testament to that. The storm could have been a problem, but it's more likely to be something more fundamental if nights have been bad for the last few weeks. I suspect it may be b/c you are nursing to sleep, but, obviously, without more information, I can't be certain. It may be that, when she was having fewer naps, she was just so exhausted at night, that she fell into an exhausted sleep, but now she is more rested, the way that she goes to sleep is more important. The theory behind the BW idea of not nursing to sleep is that, she falls asleep on you, a warm body, with a comforting boob to suck, but, as she wakes up in the night (as we all do, transitioning between stages of sleep) she's in a cot, in the dark, on her own. This confuses her, and she calls out for you. The idea is to give her the ability to fall asleep on her own, in her cot, so this doesn't happen (don't be intimidated, though, it sounds easier than it is, and no-one finds it straighforward!). This is just my gut feeling, though, if you could provide us with her daily routine, we may be able to see more clearly.

[melbatarseh]

Caroline,

Thanks for the welcome, and the reply.

Since she started the longer naps our routine has been something like this:

E 7:00  wake up and nurse
A
S 9:00 to 10:30
E 10:30 nurse
A
S 12:30 to 2:00
E 2:00 nurse
A
E 4:00 nurse
A
E 6:00 bottle of formula from Dad
A
E 8:00 nurse to sleep

Before she started the longer naps, the day was very similar, except we'd be able to get a 3rd 30 min nap before the 4:00 feed.  I tried the dream feed several times when she was about 3 months old, and she just wouldn't wake up to eat, so I gave up on it.  Eating at 2, 4, 6, and 8 seems like sort of a lot, but that's the pattern we fell into.  It started with cluster feeding at 5, 7, and 9 when she was about 7 weeks to get her down to one feeding in the night, and it worked well.  From about 2 to 4 months, she was reliably going to bed at 9:30, waking up around 3 or 4, sometimes 5, nursing, then sleeping until 8 AM.  As long as she got 6 meals during the day, she'd only wake up for one in the night.

About 2 weeks ago we moved her last meal up to 8, thus E at 4, 6, and 8.  We did this because she's just so cranky in the evenings (no wonder with just 2 or 3, 30 min naps).  I worried she might wake earlier in the morning,but she didn't, and even waked later sometimes.  It seemed good at first, but she's started waking up more in the night since then, so maybe it wasn't good.

Also, in the last 2 weeks or so, she has gotten very efficient at nursing.  She used to suck 30 minutes or more, and I'm sure some of this was just comfort nursing, not eating.  Now she's done after 10 min.  So it's getting harder to nurse her to sleep because she's not interested in sucking, and not interested in sleeping.  Same for middle of the night...harder to get her back to sleep.

Thanks,
Melanie

[mommyof2boys]

The first thing I would recommend is an earlier bedtime--6:30 or 7 to go down for the night.  I believe that overtiredness is causing the night wakings because the A time after the second nap is too long and you no longer have a 3rd nap––this leads to fitful sleep.  Have you tried putting your lo to bed earlier?  If you're worried about an early wake-up from hunger, I'd try a dreamfeed.

I really don't think the longer naps are the problem.  "Sleep begets sleep" in the words of Marc Weissbluth, another pediatric sleep expert.

Let us know how it goes!

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Yes, good answer. You either need to fit in a catnap, or an earlier bedtime.

It looks like she is A for 6 hours, between 2pm-8pm. That is too long, and is probably contributing to the wakefullness at night, and any difficulty she has going down (and crankiness in the evening). Also, if it's becoming difficult to nurse to sleep, you need to be able to do it another way. Have you got the BW book? At 5 1/2 months, she's probably still young enough that you can use the pat/sssh method to get her to sleep. If you don't have access to the book, I'm sure we can explain it to you. It basically teaches her independent sleep, with the eventual goal being that you can pop her down in her cot, awake, and she will go to sleep on her own, without any upset. It also avoids any controlled crying/crying it out, which Tracy believed broke the trust bond between baby and her caregiver. If you want to give it a try, I think it would be worth it. Let us know if you need help.

HTH xx

[melbatarseh]

I've considered earlier bedtime, but I am worried about her getting enough food so that hunger doesn't wake her up in the night, so I end up keeping her up to feed her more. (sounds kinda dumb now that I see it in print)  I was reading one of the other posts ("Where to start with a 5 1/2 month old"), and I have the same concerns as she does with the dream feed:  I have to wake her fully to get her to eat, and then I'm just trying to get her back to sleep and it seems silly.  I also had the same result as that mom:  she woke up in her normal pattern to feed anyway.

Maybe I should try to get her down for a 3rd nap.  That one is always tough, so I'd given it up.

Part of my problem with the night wakings is that I can't actually tell if she's hungry or not when she wakes.  Whenever she wakes up in the crib, whether it's day time or night time, she expects to be nursed.  I've conditioned her to expect it because E always follows S.  So sometimes I doubt she's hungry, but after an hour of trying to sooth her back to sleep, I think, "well, heck I'm hungry now, she probably is too," and I feed her.  Plus I'm tired, and I want to go back to bed, and nursing her is the easiest way to get there.  Also, since we want babies to eat and immediately sleep in the middle of the night (no A), it seems to me there's no way to avoid teaching her that she's supposed to nurse when she wakes up in the middle of the night.  I think the BW is saying that she's just not supposed to wake up in the night for food at all, but that just seems very unrealistic to me.

I do have the BW (as well as the toddler book), and I'll get the BW Answers all your Questions soon to read more about shh/pat.

We are going to my parents for a week for Christmas the 22nd to the 28th, so it seems like I should wait until we return home to try sleep training.  Even if I had some success in the next 4 or 5 days, it could all get messed up again on vacation.  Agree?  Of course, she's going to be 6 months by that point--still use shh/pat?

I agree that nursing her to sleep is part, if not most, of the problem, but I am totally overwhelmed and frightened of trying to change it.  Could I try a gradual change--maybe nurse her in a different room than the nursery or with the lights on so that there is some separation between nurse and crib/sleep.  Then I could gradually increase that separation so that she is arriving in the crib more and more awake.  Or is better to just go cold turkey?

Another thought:  to go down for a nap, I swaddle her, give her the pacifier, and shade her eyes with my hand.  She goes from fully awake to asleep in 5 minutes.  I've thought of using this same method to put her to sleep at night (I don't expect her to be asleep in 5 minutes, but at least she understands what she's supposed to do in that situation).  I know she's still using a prop (pacifier), but she would be falling asleep in the crib, not on me.  My other thought, is maybe I have to break the pacifier habit for naps first, then move on to changing how she goes to sleep at night.  I tried not giving her the paci for naps once, and she screamed and screamed, so it's going to be tough.  I can't change naps and bedtime all at the sametime; it's just too hard.

Melanie[/url]

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hi Melanie,

If you are worried about lo being hungry in the night, have a look at BW book, p.185 - a dreamfeed may be the way to do it. They take some practice, but they are possible, and are a Godsend if you are worried about settling lo afterwards. If you are having problems getting her to eat while still asleep, I used to gently nudge ds under his ear, at his jawline; this would always get him sucking again (dp used to call it his reset button!). I personally would try the df at around 10.30pm (any later and it could disturb his sleep patterns and wake him up too early in the morning). Once you have established this, it makes night wakings much easier, b/c you are confident that you are not starving her if you don't feed her, and use a dummy or pat/sssh to go back to sleep. I know it's difficult, but an earlier bedtime is definitely important here.

I think the BW is saying that she's just not supposed to wake up in the night for food at all, but that just seems very unrealistic to me

As long as she's getting enough food in the day (+the dreamfeed), she should physically be able to go all night. It's the habit of waking in the night for food that needs to be broken - this is where the dummy and/or pat/sssh comes in.

I would try the new methods as soon as you can, regardless of whether you are going away or not. The sooner the better. Just be mindfull of the fact that your holiday will probably disrupt things, and try not to get disheartened. Just a thought - could your parents help? As long as they understand what you are trying to do, it's sometimes easier for someone else to get a lo to sleep, rather than you if you have been nursing to sleep - she won't expect to be fed from them, IYKWIM? If not, though, it doesn't matter. 6 months is not to old for pat/sssh, btw, I still sometimes use it on my lo.

Could I try a gradual change--maybe nurse her in a different room than the nursery or with the lights on so that there is some separation between nurse and crib/sleep. Then I could gradually increase that separation so that she is arriving in the crib more and more awake

That's a great idea, more gentle on your lo, but it will take longer, so try not to get disheartened (easier said than done!).

She goes from fully awake to asleep in 5 minutes. I've thought of using this same method to put her to sleep at night (I don't expect her to be asleep in 5 minutes, but at least she understands what she's supposed to do in that situation). I know she's still using a prop (pacifier), but she would be falling asleep in the crib, not on me. My other thought, is maybe I have to break the pacifier habit for naps first, then move on to changing how she goes to sleep at night. I tried not giving her the paci for naps once, and she screamed and screamed, so it's going to be tough. I can't change naps and bedtime all at the sametime; it's just too hard

Yes, using the same method for naps and bedtime is a good idea, as is establishing a good bedtime routine, so she understands that it's bedtime. I don't know if this might be controversial :wink: , but I would be tempted to leave weaning her off the dummy until you've got the other problems sorted out. It's hard to get a dummy addict weaned, so it may be too much to tackle all at once (although my lo is still a dummy addict, so I might not be the best person to give advice there :oops:  :oops: ).

HTH xx

[melbatarseh]

Thanks for all the help!

It looks like my problem is really a night sleep problem, not a nap problem.  I need to teach her to go to sleep without nursing.  Should I continue with my questions on this thread, or since it's not a nap issue, start a new thread in one of the other sections -- and if so, which one?

[mommyof2boys]

I just wanted to add that, even if you don't tackle all the issues right now (nursing to sleep, bedtime routine, pacifier, etc.), I really think you should try the earlier bedtime and dreamfeed.  It may make a bigger difference than you realize, helping your lo become less overtired so tackling the other problems is easier.

Please do let us know how it goes.  We're cheering for you!

[melbatarseh]

Why is the dreamfeed better than just letting her wake up on her own and call out?  Isn't a dreamfeed essentially nursing her to sleep as well?

[mommyof2boys]

Neither of my sons ever actually woke up at the dreamfeed; they essentially nursed WHILE asleep, as opposed to nursing them TO sleep.

The beauty of the dreamfeed is that it tops them off for the night and you can be a bit more confident that, if they wake up at midnight or 1am, it's not hunger.  Plus, once they've been sleeping through for a few weeks, you can move the dreamfeed earlier in 15 minute increments until it's gone altogether and your lo sleeps from 7 till 7 (or about those hours) without a feed. 

My 4mo has finally started sleeping through the night consistently (though he's sick now--probably will wake up tonight) and goes from a 7pm bedtime till about 7:30 am, with a 9:30 dreamfeed.  Thus, he's going 10 hours between feedings.

If you'd like, you could try the earlier bedtime without a dreamfeed and see what happens; it may improve things just by relieving the overtiredness.  But I'd encourage you to give the dreamfeed a try.  Just pick up your little in her very dimly lit room and offer her the feed.  She may just go for it without even opening her eyes, as mine does!

[melbatarseh]

Here's an Update on the last few days:

Saturday:  awake 8:30, 3 naps (2 hr, 1.5 hr, 25 min), 7:30 bath, 8:00 nurse, 8:20 she's done nursing and is relaxed but not really asleep, put her in crib, sooth (as would sooth for a nap), and she's asleep in 5 minutes!  Total of 5 meals during the day.  Woke at 2:30 am, nursed for 30 min, not asleep when laid her back in crib, soothed for 10 min and asleep.  Slept till about 7:30 Sunday morning.

So this was a great day and great night!

Sunday:  awake 7:30, 3 naps (1 hr 20 min, 2 hr 10 min, 30 min), 6:30 bath, 7:00 nurse and not falling asleep at all.  I think this might have been a little too early of a bedtime--she only started her day 11.5 hours ago.  Anyway, she nursed 30 min, and was awake in crib, soothed about 10 min, seemed to sleep, heard some fussing, replaced paci about 30 min later, but after that seemed OK.  My husband soothed her around 10:20 and 10:50 because he heard her on the monitor, but I was in bed and didn't hear a thing.  I doubt she really needed any attention then.  Total of 5 meals again today.  Woke at 1:30 nursed 30 min, not alseep, soothed 30 min in crib before even drowsy.  I left her alone before fully asleep, but did go to sleep.  Then awake at 4:45,  lots of crying because I wouldn't nurse her, asleep at 5:30.  Awake at 6:20 -- probably coming out of REM from the earlier waking episode?  Replaced paci and immediately asleep, wake again 6:50 but she's not calling for attention, she's making her noises that mean "it's morning and I'll play for a bit before calling Mommy."

So this was a good day, not a good night.  However, I am proud of myself for not feeding her at 4:45 and getting her back to sleep.  I couldn't get back to sleep myself, but oh well.

So I'm going to continue helping her extend naps (although she needs less and less help each naptime), I'm going to continue with 5 feeds each day, and I'm going to continue an earlier bedtime (just maybe not quite as early as last night--maybe give her 12 or 12.5 total hours of "day").

And I think I'm going to try the dreamfeed tonight.  If she's asleep by 7:30 or 8:00 tonight, I was thinking I'd do the dream feed around 11:00.  Does that sound right?  Assuming that she does nurse at the dreamfeed, if she wakes up after that (for example, at her typical time of 2 am), then I should not feed her, right?  I should just try to get her back to sleep with the pacifier?  And is the idea here that if I am consistent about not feeding her, she will stop waking up at night? 

Thanks again!
Melanie

[melbatarseh]

Well, I wimped out on the dreamfeed.  I started nursing her at 7:30 last night, and after 30 min of nursing and 30 min of soothing in crib, she was finally asleep.  I was just too tired to stay up until 11 to do DF, and I just felt like putting a lot of effort into changing her bedtime/nighttime habits right now was a waste because I think I'll have to start all over after Christmas holiday at my parents.  She did sleep until 2 AM though, which was great.  But after 1 hour of nursing and 30 minutes soothing in crib, she was still awake.  I woke my husband, told him I was going to sleep on the couch, and it was his turn.  He said she woke at 4, 4:30, 6, and 6:30.  He got her back to sleep very quickly (less than 5 minutes), but she didn't stay asleep. 

Are we going to have to start helping her through REM at night now too??  I just don't think I can go into her room every 45 minutes all night long to make sure she stays asleep!

Feeling hopeless this morning from lack of sleep.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello, I'm sorry you had a bad night, hun.

The only thing I can stress to you is consistency (i know, great timing with Christmas on the way :roll: ). Changing sleep habits does not happen overnight, unfortunately, so you have to keep going. It's great that you have a supportive dh who will help (more than I have, but that's another story :roll: ). Maybe you can split the nights in some way so at least each of you is sleeping at some point? Did you consider pumping and giving an this expressed milk in a bottle at the df? This is what I did, and I found it much easier - it's quicker, you know how much she's taking, and you can take it in turns with dh to do it. You obviously don't have to do this :wink: , but if you are comfortable with the idea, it might be worth considering.

All I can say is that you are doing it for a reason. When it's 4am, and she won't sleep, and you are absolutely knackered, it's easy to throw in the towel and say "s*d this, I'm going to feed her", but then you'd be ruining all your hard work. Just know that this will work, but every baby is different in how long it takes.