Author Topic: Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!  (Read 3994 times)

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Offline shell_bell

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« on: December 17, 2005, 21:32:11 pm »
Hi
We read the BW and started implementing it about 2 weeks ago. First week went really well and thought we were starting to get into a routine, but last week it all turned pear shape.
I think it started when I missed a tired sign and took ages to get her to settle to sleep. From then on she has been grumpy and overtired. She is only feeding well (BF) every second feed and other wise she falls half asleep or comfort sucks. After play time which is usually really short as she is so grumpy when I try and put her down she screams and won't be consoled, no matter how much patting and shshshing. I stay with her for about an hour of the screaming whilst patting & shshshsing and the occasional pick up to settle her but after this time she appears hungry so I try and feed her, then sometimes she will go down and only fight me for about 20 minutes. After all of this any sort of 3 hour routine is out the window! she used to sleep really well at night and this has even thrown this out! I feel like I am on a whirlwind of bad habits now that we can't break because she is so overtired. Any suggestions PLEASE!!! I am tired, stressed and frustrated and I am sure bub is too!

Offline M&M's Ima

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2005, 22:05:10 pm »
Welcome!
I'm not sure everyone would agree with this, but I would actually suggest doing whatever you can (iow, accidental parenting) to get her not overtired, then starting again with sleep training. I'm also in the middle of shh-patting (on and off, but that's another story), and if I see ds is too wired, I take him outside in a baby carrier, cuz I know he'll fall asleep that way.
Another mom here (sorry, forgot who) also suggested AP if necessary for the rest of the morning nap if baby woke up too early.
We have to see the full picture of what works best for everyone involved, even as we try to stay consistent. Just seems like you could cut out a lot of extra screaming and get quicker results if you're working with a rested baby.

Does she sleep if you're outside?

I hope you get more replies, so we know if what I'm saying makes sense or not in the long run.

Good for you for starting this now! When you need support (to vent out all that overtired crying) most of us have either done it, or are doing the same thing. (Yours truly, for one.)
My boys:
Angel four year old
Spirited two year old
Very Sleepy Baby

Offline Deb_in_oz

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2005, 05:19:21 am »
how long are you having lo awake for - including feed time?  at 5 weeks their A time is still quite short so may be overtired.
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

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Offline shell_bell

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2005, 06:08:03 am »
I have been trying to keep her awake times to about 1 hour - 1 hour 15 mins. This includes change, feed & play. During play as soon as I notice her start to lose interest or yawn or fidget and get jerky I take her in to her room close the curtains cuddle her and then put her down - within 30 seconds she is screaming! We have had an extra bad day today she hasn't slept since 12noon and it is now 5pm. We have had 2 feeds inbetween but she is mainly comfort sucking. i am beside myself and she is too. I feel like such a failure and a bad mum. I wish I knew where I was going wrong. She has been checked out medically and is fine, she is putting on weight each week and growing well, so I guess I am doing something right. But she needs her sleep. Little bubs are supposed to be getting 15-18 hours sleep right? Well my LO averages about 10 and it is not enough. I am so worried about her.

Offline M&M's Ima

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2005, 07:55:20 am »
Hi, again. Just a thought. An hour actually seems somewhat long for an overtired 5 week old. I wonder how it would work to start your wind-down after half an hour?
My ds is about ten weeks, and after a long night sleep, his morning wake time, which is by far the best, is only an hour or an hour 15. After a few bad naps, that time can shrink to 20 minutes.

Don't blame yourself, though. Babies under three months old have a physiological difficulty sleeping. It is not your fault! They need their sleep, but we can only try our best, right?

Good luck! I so much understand the frustration involved in this, as I'm also fighting the overtired battle.
My boys:
Angel four year old
Spirited two year old
Very Sleepy Baby

Offline Deb_in_oz

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2005, 07:56:48 am »
hi - you are not a failure as a mom - i did better my first time, but that was an angel/textbook baby.  it took me until 7 weeks to realise that olivia (spirited) was never going to give me tired signs early enough(by the time a spirited baby shows signs you have missed the window) so when at 7 weeks i cut back her awake time to 45 min suddenly i had a napper (inconsistent lengths but she started napping just about every EASY cycle with little to no crying...) prior to that we often had failures at getting her to go down for naps and she woudl be awake (happily even) for 3-5 hours  :shock:  at 3-5 weeks old!!

try it ad see if it changes things.  try having her back in bed 45 min afetr waking each time.  if she copes really well with that you may find you can increase back to 1 hour soon, but start with no more than 45 min...
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

dd1 - Textbook/Angel, born July 2003
dd2 - Spritied through & through, born Feb 2005

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Offline shell_bell

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2005, 08:43:00 am »
Thank you both for your replies. I feel so much better just having an outlet and some responses. Although my partner is very supportive and helpful he knows as little as I do so having someone to 'talk' to who has some knowledge is great. sometimes I just feel so alone.
I will definately reduce her awake time to 45 minutes to see how that works. Poor little munchkin.
Another question, which I probably know the answer to is when LO finally gets to sleep she usually sleeps through her next feed. I should be waking her at the 3 hour mark shouldn't I? And of course hopefully once she gets over her 'over tiredness' she should start sleeping better and be better on routine right?

Offline Deb_in_oz

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 08:59:04 am »
use your judgement about waking her for a feed - let's say she has been asleep for 1hr 45 min and is "due for a feed"  you could let her go to 2hrs and not worry about it.  or if she was hard to settle because you missed her window and it takes you a long time to get her to sleep let her sleep at least one sleep cycle (45 min) before waking her for a feed. this way she will at least have some decent sleep so she won't fall asleep while feeding and start a cycle of short naps and short feeds...

EASY is not a schedule - it is fluid - so don't stress about doing anything at exactly a certain time...3 hrs just gives you something to aim for so you don't create a snacker who feeds every hour or so.  if you are nursing she might want to feed 2-2.5hrs sometimes... and a growth spurt will likely occur soon as they generally happen around 6 weeks, 12 weeks, 6mo, 9mo and 12 mo.

Quote (selected)
And of course hopefully once she gets over her 'over tiredness' she should start sleeping better and be better on routine right

hopefully  :D  it shoudl certainly get things going. watch and learn what type of baby she is and adjust EASY to meet her needs (come ask questions anytime) and things should keep improving.  some temperments are certainly more challenging than others and some babies have issues in one area (ie sleep or feeding) that require tweaking of the routine - it is ever evolving so just grow and change with your special little baby!

good luck and post back over the next 2-3 days with your progress and we can see what other suggestions might help (think about a windown routine etc)
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

dd1 - Textbook/Angel, born July 2003
dd2 - Spritied through & through, born Feb 2005

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Offline M&M's Ima

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 13:22:48 pm »
Just wanted to put in my two cents, too. If you don't have a problem with weight gain, I'd let her sleep! I mean, the quicker you can get over the overtiredness, the better. (Just don't let her sleep for more than three hours, as she may turn day into night and v/v.)
My boys:
Angel four year old
Spirited two year old
Very Sleepy Baby

Offline Deb_in_oz

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 21:25:44 pm »
I also want to chime in about the length of naps - i know you want to let a baby get as much sleep as they "need" but at under 3 months it is a fine balance between food and sleep and i woudl try to limit each daytime nap to 2 - 2 1/2hrs at the most  for 2 reasons 1) as rafaella stated you want to make sure they understand that the longest stretches of sleep happen at night but also 2) if all the naps were to extend long you would actually miss out on a feed so by keeping the feeds as close as possible to 3hrs you get in at least 5 day feeds + Dream feed by 11pm so although letting 1 nap go to 2 1/2 hrs would not be an issue if several were 3 hrs you woudl be cutting into feeding and might find you end up getting them to bed with a very late feed or end up with only 4 feeds by bedtime HTH
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

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dd2 - Spritied through & through, born Feb 2005

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Offline lisas

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 22:01:47 pm »
Shell-Bell, I just wanted to write and say that my little boy (born Nov 16) sounds a lot like your little one.  He either does not sleep at all (yesteday was up from 9:00 am.m until 8:00 pm) or sleeps after every feed (today).  He is either screaming his head off or falling asleep feeding or too exhausted to cry.  I too feel like a terrible mother as I don't remember things being this way with my 3 year old.  however, I also let my 3 year old sleep on my chest (yes my chest) for his first 8 weeks.  My first child was a textbook/Angel and this little one appears to be a grumpy/touchy baby.  It's so hard to know what to do because some nights I am so tired that I just put him on my boob and go to sleep.  I don't want to resort to that but when I have to function the next day, I see no other option.  My husband is a great help but unfortunately isn't here throughout the day during the week.  We are optimistic that things are starting to turn around and have to say that this website and the support has been incrediby helpful.

Good luck and let me know how it goes.

Lisa

Offline shell_bell

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2005, 01:12:02 am »
Well, struggling we are.
Last night we woke at 1am fed and wouldn't settle and cried right through to next feed at around 4am. Finally went to sleep after that feed. Woke at 7am fed and bed by 7:45, didn't protest because she had the hiccups which always seems to calm her. Woke at 10 fed, in bed by 11am and still screaming now. Had to take a 5 minute break or I will go insane. she was about to drop off 1/2 an hour into it and 11 minutes after shutting her eyes she opened them and started crying again. The shhhshhh pat isn't working - should I be doing the pick up or put down? I would have thought she may be too young for that. should I still try and swaddle her as she absolutley hates it and this is most of her struggle. Although when I don't swaddle her and she does get upset her arms fly everywhere. what do I do? I am really committed to making this work but it is really hard, she has such a loud cry I have put some plugs in my ears but they are still ringing! Well better go back in to her and try shhshshs pat again, almost time for the next feed though.
I do appreciate everyones help and really need the support right now. Giving up just seems so much easier, but I won't

Offline shell_bell

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2005, 02:27:32 am »
Me again.
firstly - Lisa - I guess it must be something with bubs born on the 16th of November!! And she is a 'touch' one too. Everyone tells me it gets better! What do you do with your little man when he is awake that long? I feel for you.

Now I think I might be doing something wrong - and someone please tell me if I am and idiot!!
I may be trying to put her in her cot too early. By that I don't mean before the tired signs, but maybe I am not letting her wind down enough. This is my routine -
1 See tired signs (or at the moment very shortly after end of feed)
2 go into nursery, close blinds, say bye bye Mr. sunshine etc...
3 Swaddle her - which usually starts her crying anyway
4 sit in rocking chair and cuddle her for a couple of minutes
5 Go over to cot and gently sing "Twinkle Twinkle"
6 Tell her it's nigh nigh time, see you when you wake up
7 Give her a kiss and put her down
At this stage she is still annoyed about being swaddled but is also pretty much wide awake
What I think I am doing wrong is not settling her enough. Should I be sitting and rocking with her until she starts to drift off to sleep, not fully asleep but starting to close her eyes and then should I get up and do steps 6 & 7?
I was of the understanding once you see the tired signs its a couple of minutes quiet and then into cot, but after re-reading the section of S in the book I may have got it wrong?
I feel so stupid!

I also have a couple of unrelated questions

1. With the routine - when do you get time to go and run errands or do the grocery shopping? Obviously I am not having time to do that stuff yet until we get over the overtiredness but when this happens when should I time my outings for.

2. Is it normal for LO to be having a dirty nappy every change? She has about

Thanx Shell

Offline M&M's Ima

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2005, 12:19:55 pm »
When I reread that chapter in the book , I got confused too. Tracy says to put baby down drowsy - in stage 2. But it took me forever to get to stage 2. Here's what I posted, and what Debbie replied. Helped me tons.

Quote (rafaella):
i see Tracy says to put him down in Stage 2 - drowsy. The problem is, I can't get him drowsy, unless he's way past his nap time. I can't calm him down on me without nursing or walking around forever. and when i take him into a dark room, he fusses so much more! Tracy says that's the only thing that's supposed to calm him down!
For some reason, it makes me really frustrated that he's not acting like it says he should

Debbie:
OK the biggie! don't worry about the "drowsy" state. I think the distinction for stating about putting them down at DROWSY was to make it clear to get them to bed before they are asleep! if your lo is ok with being put into the bed straight after a quick windown and then either putting himself to sleep or you doing shh/pat then that is all you need to do. you are otherwise creating more work for yourself trying to "get him" to the drowsy state. Neither of my girls ever got "drowsy" with us. alex yawned once (textbook) and we knew to get her ready and we swaddled and put her in bed and said night,night and left her to it! olivia does not yawn/limited tired signs, but we watch the clock and at her "nap times" we just took her to her room and changed nappy, swaddled, topped up with food (sometimes), and sang rocka bye baby, in the cot and left. if she struggles to go down THEN we go in and use shh/pat but we always gave both girls a chance to do it themselves from AWAKE to ASLEEP - i never had the experience of sitting in the rocking chair leading to getting droopy eyes etc NOT ONCE. not in their nature to enjoy that quiet time to get sleepy, they just want to be left to get sleepy in their bed. HTH

Shell, Do you think this may be the case with your little one? My ds also won't settle on me. I put him down restless and awake. We're still in the process of this, so he will often cry, and I shh-pat, or sometimes he'll suck his fingers and fall asleep. (took two weeks to get there.)

Stick to the swaddling, she should get used to it, and needs it. There are various types of swaddling in the Props section.

Some babies don't like shh-pat. Many parents just lay a firm hand on the back and say shhh. Or maybe the shh bothers her, so just do the pat. also, tracy says to say sshhh for some babies, but to break into the cries wtih "it's okay, it's okay" for some babies.

Menachem doesn't really like shh pat either. it's too stimulating. I lay a hand on his back, and one on his head, and I rub his head. if he's calming on his own, I don't even rub. i just have my two hands on him. I'll say shhh only if he's screaming. sometimes it helps him quiet, but I stop that when he's quiet. See what variation works with your baby. I find sometimes he does need the patting for a little while, and now he's a little older, it's not overstimulating for him, but i often have to stop has he's calming down. otherwise the next pat will startle him.

Sorry i'm so long-winded today!!!
just wanted to give you a feel for different ideas.
hope this helps.

Dirty diapers all the time is very normal. For us, that stopped abruptly at something like six or seven weeks.
My boys:
Angel four year old
Spirited two year old
Very Sleepy Baby

Offline lisas

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2005, 17:04:04 pm »
If 6 weeks is the dram age, I can't wait.  I am getting so frustrated with the pat/shush as Zachary juest gets madder and cries louder.  Last night, I resorted to bringing him to bed and nursing him as he was not going to sleep at 4:00 am.  I have never wanted a little one to grow up as fast as I want this little guy to.  I feel like a terrible, unloving mom but some mornings I wake up and dread having to go through the whole routine of trying to get him to sleep.  He's not happy when he's awake otherwise I'd just let him be up for longer periods of time.

I wish there was a magic answer but it seems that some things work for some kids and not for others.  Last night he cried for 45 minutes (with soothing breaks in between but I felt nausous riding that time period out.

Lisa

Offline shell_bell

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2005, 19:36:26 pm »
Lisa

I feel exactly the same as you. It is such a struggle to get my girl to sleep and is so frustrating. I am the same - if she was happy to be awake that would be fine, but she too is so grumpy when she is awake except the first 10 minutes after her feed - so obviously her tiredness kicks in after that but she won't go down. Yesterday we had 3 screaming matches before each nap. At night she is better as she normally is really dopey after her feed and falls asleep usually pretty easily. I want one of those angel babies!
I can't wait for the 6 month mark!

Offline lisas

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2005, 20:25:51 pm »
Stacy, thanks for the input into your situation and what is working.  I phoned every person I know top find out what they did.  Most have babies who sleep all the time (we hate them) and the rest said put him on his stomach.  Well, I was leary but yesterday at nap time, I put him on his stomach and observed.  The only time he stirred was to pass gas which didn't seem to bother him.  He slept for 2 1/2 hours and I had a hard time waking him.  He still got up every 2 hours at night but as we speak, he has been sleeping for over an hour.  Let me tell you THIS IS HUGE!!!  I have had days where I didn't eat breakfast until 11:00 or at all.  Today, I cleaned the kitchen, did the washing and hung out with my 3 year old.  So did I sleep last night?  No, I was too worried but tonight I will hopefully be more comfortable.  I talked to my doctor about it today and he said 10 years ago, everyone slept on their stomachs.  You ahve to do what works.

Hope that helps somewhat cause it sure has for me.

Lisa

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Offline Cilla

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2005, 05:14:26 am »
My daughter Ivey is a Touchy baby and gets very upset when she gets tired too. She is 7 weeks old and has been much happier this week then last. I know that sounds crazy, but last week she cried all the time and this week it is mainly when she is tired, wet, or hungery. I know every where you look tell you to put your baby on their back or side to sleep, but until I started putting her on her stomach to sleep, she hardly slept. Now she sleeps more soundly and seems more rested. I just make sure there is a tight sheet under her, and that nothing is where it can cover her face. She also will scream like crazy when she is tired, so I shh/pat and sometimes even walk into the bathroom and run water(the sound is calming) till she calms a little, then put her in her bed, kiss her and tell her I love her, then leave her. She will fall asleep usually within 5 min. if not I go pat her and tell her I love her again, then leave, wait another 5 min. if not then walk in dont touch her and just say reassuring things, and leave again. Unless she is dirty or something. that usually works if not I pick her up to calm her and try again. Honestly though, the first few times took the longest, and now she is asleep in about 5 min.

Offline M&M's Ima

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Help! 5 week old won't go down without screaming!
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2005, 10:10:49 am »
ds takes his naps on his stomach for the same reason. he still does some 30 minute ones  :evil: but also some 2 1/2 hours. :D

stacy, i am the same way about getting all neurotic if i'm thinking i have to follow BW to the letter. it is, after all, just a book, and doesn't take into consideration your exact lifestyle or situation. but a lot of it really works so well, i'm so glad i found it!

We'll be missing a nap cuz big ds has an immunization scheduled for this afternoon. This afternoon is going to be a bunch of thirty minute naps :x .
(I'm praying he'll sleep okay while we're out, and not get overtired, but what are the chances?)
My boys:
Angel four year old
Spirited two year old
Very Sleepy Baby