Extending naps not working, please help!

[saucer]

My DH and I have been following the PU/PD method to get our DS (6 months old) to extend his naps but so far it hasn't made any difference.  He is going down no problem but WILL not go back to sleep no matter how many PU/PDs we do.  He is spending two hours in his cot altogether ..... about 30-40 mins of that time is spent actually sleeping and the rest of the time he is awake with us trying to get him back off to sleep.  A lot of the time he is calm and just lies there (so presumably we don't do PU/PD ... we have been leaving him to see will he nod off) and the rest of time he is wriggling about and trying to crawl about.  Please, please help .... we are following all the other routine advice E.A.S.Y .... etc, and we have no problem with anything else (or sleeping through the night) ... just extending the naps.  Today is day 4 of trying to extend the naps and we are persevering ... should we just continue what we are doing or are we doing something wrong?  Will he eventually learn to fall back asleep and should we not be worrying so much about the fact that he is spending so much of his 'S' time awake?  Please, please advise!

PS  Just found out I am pregnant again today .... DS will be 14 months old by the time the new baby is born so I am desperate to get his routine sorted now so that by then we are more-or-less trouble free.

[Aarismom]

First of all, Congrats on your pregnancy!!

Luckily by 14 months all you really have to worry about is one long nap a day, so that might save you some headaches.

For now, could you post some sort of day schedule? That will help us try and help you best.

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[saucer]

Thank you ... that would be great.

Well as I said I have just started doing the routine since last Friday.  We did have a routine going before that but admittedly not as structured and naps were not always in the same place.

Since Friday I have been doing the following (based on Tracy's new book ... introducing a routine to a baby who had no routine ....):

Up at 7am, bottle
Activity
Breakfast (solids) at 8am
Activity
Nap at 9am (anywhere from 30-45 mins ... rest of the time is PU/PD or reassuring and sometimes he takes another 30-45 mins nap)
Bottle at 11am
Activity
Lunch at 12noon (solids)
Activity
Nap at 1pm  (anywhere from 30-45 mins ... rest of the time is PU/PD or reassuring and sometimes he takes another 30-45 mins nap)
Bottle at 3pm
Activity
Supper at 5pm (solids)
Catnap 5.30 (for 20-30 mins)
Bath 6.30-7.00
Bottle at 7.00pm
Bed at 7.30pm (goes down independently - usually mooches for a while and then asleep within 20 mins) .... sleeps until the next day at 7am (sometimes wakes a few minutes earlier but is happy to coo in cot until I go get him)

Any advice most welcome.  Thanks so much!

[Colesmom]

Hi saucer-First-congrats on the great night sleep!

It looks as though you're getting a good 4 hour EASY in place.  The first thing I notice is that your DS is up for 2 hours at a time (approx).  You may want to try extending this gradually.  Start with 5-10 min. increments for the first nap as it's usually the easiest to extend.  You don't want to push him too far to fast and have him overtired since he is going down so well.  His night sleep is so good that he's probably very well rested and he can go longer than 2 hours for A time.  If he's not tired enough no amount of PUPD will help send him back to sleep.
You may need to keep this extra A time low key.  playing with a soft toy in his room or reading a book.

HTH-let us know how it goes.

[Aarismom]

I agree with Colesmom

One thing to add, it looks like he's up close to 3.5 hours before his second nap. You might want to actually reduce this time, as he's probably overtired by this point. Try around 2.5-3 hours and see if that helps a little.

The first awake time you might want to keep it a little bit shorter than the wake time before the afternoon nap.  Keep a wind down routine if you don't already have one, maybe a little floor play, holding and rocking, maybe sing a song, then work on PU/PD.

Give it some time, you'll get through it soon!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[heather10]

I don't want to hijack this post but since I am having some issues too and my child is the same age, I thought we might both benefit.

My thoughts were first that you have a 3.5 hour awake time too and wow that is long.  If he is waking at 9:30 and you don't get him down until 1...is that cause he is showing no signs of tiredness or because you want to keep him on the 9-11 1-3 ideal nap schedule?

I gave up scheduling this baby at about 15 weeks.  I was losing my mind and it was affecting me deeply.  I stopped thinking about the 45 min naps as problems and just put him down when he seemed tired.  Sometimes that meant 2 naps and a catnap, other times it was 3 naps and a catnap.  Every day is different and nothing can be predicted...

I have been doing the 2 hour awake time too and am wondering when and how that gets extended.  I know I've heard 8-9 month olds can do the 3 hours, but never was sure how to get him there.  From the post above it seems the morning nap is easiest so maybe we will start there, and then do 10-15 mins later for each subsequent nap and see if we can drop that catnap altogether. 

IS that the best way to drop it?  I am finding he is soooo hard to put down at that time, and am not sure if it is because he is exhausted at this point, or cause he doesn't need it - I really can't tell since some days it seems it is one, and on other days it seems like another.

[Colesmom]

saucer-my apologies for not noticing your second A time was a little long.  I wonder if your DS is hard to read for sleep cues?  I know my lo is.

It does look as though you are trying to fit your lo into the 9 and 1 nap schedule and he may not be ready for it.  I tried that recently with my DS and he ended up being a very overtired little guy and I've since reverted back to going by A time.  If I remember correctly, my DS at 6 months had A time of 2, 2.25,2.5,2.5.  I'll have to go back and check my notes to be certain.

One other thing that I'm not sure you are aware of. PUPD is only used if you cannot soothe your child in the crib.  If you're able to pat his bum or rub his back to calm him then I would recommend that before PUPD.   

Heather10-don't be in too much of a rush to drop the catnap.  Like you said, some days you may need it, some days not.  Unless you are certain your DS can go for a pretty long A time he is likely to end up overtired.  How is his night sleep?  If he is waking frequently it could be a signal that he is overtired.  Try to work on the first nap, extending A time just a bit and maybe going in around the 30 minute mark and trying to catch any jolts.  I think I remember reading some of your earlier posts so I think you have already tried extending in this manner without success?

Not sure if this helps you ladies at all.  Please let me know if you need further clarification.

[saucer]

Thanks everyone for your help and replies ... heather10, glad you posted about your DS as it would be a great help to us both to share experiences.

Okay, I'm a little confused folks.  I thought in order to establish a routine to a 6 month old baby who previously didn't have much of a routine I have to follow the recommended routine exactly for 5-7 days (with observation days at first for 2 days)?  Is that not right?  That's why his schedule is

Awake/bottle 7am
Solids 8am
Nap 9am
Bottle 11am
Lunch 12 noon
Nap 1pm
Bottle 3pm
Supper 5pm
Catnap 5.30pm
Bath 6.30pm
Bottle 7pm
Bed 7.30pm

When he doesn't sleep for the entire 1.5-2hr nap time I assumed it was best to leave him in the cot and to keep trying to get him back to sleep ..... not actually take him up?  This is why his second activity time seems so long .... because he is awake during 'S' time .... but in order to keep to the above schedule it throws out the times.  Am I doing it wrong then?

Sorry if I confused you about PU/PD .... we are only doing this when and if he's distressed.  The rest of the time we are just reassuring him with words, pats or stroking his face/head.  To be honest a lot of the time he is happy to just stay in his cot and talk to himself or play .... it's not like he is screaming crying the whole time to get up (although he has done this too which has meant PU/PD on and off during the whole 'S' time.

So should I start following his cues ... which is pretty much the routine that I was following before introducing Tracys or should I stick to hers until the 7 days are up (Friday)?

Also ... keeping him up for over 2 hours at a time is tricky as he gets very cranky.  Although he is awake a lot of the ''S" time in his cot, it seems he is resting and therefore is a bit more relaxed when he finally gets up.

Any help appreciated!

[saucer]

Okay I am officially at the peak of frustration now with this routine!

Having re-read the chapter about PU/PD in Tracy's new book I decided to do wake to sleep during his morning nap in an effort to extend his morning nap.

We started our wind down routine at 8.40.  He went down like a dream without any fuss or protest.  By 9.00am he was fast alseep (independently). 

I went into this room after 25 minutes to anticipate his wakeup and as the book suggested I rested my hand on him and then very gentle patted him ... of course he woke up! ... 45 minutes later (and one sore neck for Mom later from bending over the cot!) he was still awake until finally he nodded off with 45 minutes left of 'S' time left to go.

I bet he will only sleep for another 30 minutes! 

Honestly I could just cry!  I haven't left the house since last Friday so that I can stick to this new routine religiously.  It's now Christmas week and I have no groceries bought and still have shopping to do.  When am I supposed to do this without interrupting this routine?  I cant leave him with someone else as they will do things differently and I can't bring him with me as that will mess things up too.

By the way ... I just hear him crying again .... 10 minutes after going back asleep .... oh now it's okay it sounds like he's just settled himself again.

Can those of you who are doing this routine long term please advise ... do I persist with what I'm doing or tweak it somewhat? 

I am very close to throwing the towel in now and just don't feel I can cope with this too much longer.

Thanks for listening.

From a very frustrated Saucer

[saucer]

Okay an update for you guys.

As you know he woke up after 30 mins and spent 45 minutes being reassured  or mooching in his cot ... this left 45 mins of 'S' time left until his next feed at 11am.

Then he slept again ....10 mins later he woke up.  He then spent 15 mins mooching and resettling himself and went back asleep again for 20 mins.  I had to wake him up at 11am for his feed.

Please tell me is this progress or not?  Do I do the same thing again at 1pm when he naps again?  Should I do the wake-up to sleep routine again or just leave him and see if he rouses and then goes back asleep himself?  I am wondering if perhaps seeing me is causing him too much distraction.   Am I better off just staying out of his room unless he actually cries.

By the way his room is suitably darkened (blackout curtains) to keep stimulation to a minimum and all his toys are removed from his cot and from his line of vision.  I am using a Bach musical mobile as part of his wind down but it is out of view so all he can hear is the music.

DS is a spirited baby by the way :-0

Advice/comments/help most welcome.

Thanks (a slightly calmer Saucer than last time!)

[saucer]

Okay another update from me. 

The good news is that the last nap was a good bit better.  I decided not to do the wake-up to sleep like the last nap and just decided to see what happened.

DS went down without any problems and slept for 1hr 15mins straight through.  He woke up cranky so, when he didn't settle himself in the first few minutes, I went in to reassure him.  When that didn't work I did PU/PD and he went back to sleep for a further 20 minutes and woke up a happier man.

I feel I have made serious progress ... today is his 5th day following Tracy's routine exactly so perhaps the message is beginning to hit home!

Should I just keep going with what I am doing or (as per my earlier messages) tweak anything slightly?

My sister has offered to babysit him during the day to allow me to finish Christmas shopping but I have said no as I want to see this through to the end.  If he has a good day tomorrow (day 6) and Thursday (day 7) I might just do some shopping then.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

[Aarismom]

Sounds like he's really getting the message!

Good for you for seeing it through! I'd keep it up. Any progress is good progress. Be aware though, that some lo's like to regress (I think it's a personality thing). Just be stubborn about it and stick with it, he'll get the point.

Great job mom!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[Colesmom]

Saucer- I think you are doing great!  And yes, consistency is the key so keep at it.  Sorry for the confusing signals from me.  Is there any way your sister could do your shopping for you?  I totally understand you wanting to be with your DS for sleep training and I think it's a good idea to do so.

Like Sonya said below, there can be regression, especially with boys so if you seem like you're going backwards tomorrow please stick with it.  It will pay off and you'll be a very happy mummy for keeping on track.

[saucer]

Thanks everyone for the continued support and reassurance to keep going.  It has paid off ... he is finally getting the message.  He still sometimes wakens after 30 mins or so but most times I can get him back to sleep and at least one of his naps per day is an hour and a half pretty much straight through without any problems .... so the other nap I'm sure will come together in time.

Just one question now really!  Today is day 7 of following Tracy's routine exactly (Up at 7am & bottle, solids at 8am, nap at 9am, bottle at 11am, solids at 12noon, nap at 1pm, bottle at 3pm, catnap at 5pm, solids at 5.30/5.45pm, bath, bottle at 7pm, bed at 7.30pm) ..... do I continue to follow this routine or should I know take my cues from the baby???

For example .... DS is actually waking up around 6.15am but is happy to coo in the cot.  Most times he falls back asleep by around 6.45 or 6.50 and I have to wake him at 7am.  SO ..... technically he is up 2 hours at 8.15(ish) and so if I was following his cues I would probably be putting him down a little earlier than 9am.

Any advice on how to proceed now that I have broken the back of extending his naps would be very much appreciated.

I can't believe what a much more contented and happy baby he is.  Thank you to all those who helped me persevere.

[Colesmom]

Hi there,

I would say that you can tweak the times a little bit here and there.  You don't want to keep him up too long to stay with the clock and have him overtired.  It will take some experimentation to find the best Awake time for him for each activity interval. 

I wonder if you left him to sleep in the a.m. when he falls back asleep what time he would wake up?  If he then slept until 7:30 that would still be considered night sleep and you could start your day then.  Would it be worth a try?

That is great that he wakes and coos and plays.  Much better than needing mommy right away.

I hope this note helps you some.

[littleA]

Saucer - oh do I feel your pain!  It is very challenging to stick to the schedule and get ANYTHING DONE!  When my "spirited baby" was 6 mos old, his napping was limited to 2 45-min naps (with longer activity time).  If your babe is a good night sleeper, I wouldn't stress.  Once my little guy started crawling around he tired himself out more and started sleeping for 1.5hr+ for each nap (around 8 mos).  I don't think that the holidays is the best time to get in the groove with the Whisperer schedule - try and stay on it generally speaking but don't stress.  Lastly, even when you have them on a schedule, sometimes things change (party, shopping, etc), its best just to roll with it.  They are pretty adaptable and if they are on their schedule 85% of the time they will be happy.  Before I go - CONGRATS on the new baby!

[jmcinnes]

Hi Saucer-
Are you still out there?  I have been doing the same schedule as you with my spirited little girl.  While there were a couple of days that she took good naps, the last few she has been getting up after 30-45 mins and then I do p/u p/d and she cries the entire rest of the sleep period.  Just wondering if you could give me any insight and let me know what worked for you and if it is still working.

[Rebecca P]

Hello!  I am also new to this, and I just wanted to empathize with you regarding naps.  My daughter is 14  1/2 weeks old, and I have been trying Tracy's method for about two weeks.  Naps were ok, and now she sleeps about 30-35 minutes and then wakes up.  I have tried wake to sleep, and I have ensured I am at her bedside when she wakes up at the 30-35 minute mark to try to get her back down.  Often I use p/u p/d for the entire nap time, OR, do it for 30 minutes and she'll fall back to sleep for 30 minutes. 
I basically just wanted to say I know how you feel.  I am also very frustrated with naps.  Her night sleeps are very good, but the naps make the day quite intolerable (especially when I am alone!).  I think the next "trick" I am going to try is white noise (I'll let you know how it works out!!).
Take care, and know you're not alone with this problem!
Becky (Taylor's mom!) :wink: