frustrated

[M&M's Ima]

I understand the ten minute jolt. I understand the 45 minute sleep cycle....
Why is my ds waking after thirty minutes?!
I'm so tired of putting him back to sleep as soon as he wakes up, as if he didn't sleep.
Can I wake to sleep? he's two and a half months old.

Also, how does ANYONE get their kids to sleep in that teensy tiny window of stage 1? When ds wakes after less than an hour and a half, I need to put him back to sleep within twenty minutes. I can't plan that, cuz I don't know when he'll wake up.

By the way, for people doing shh-pat, if he's crying in his crib, after how long would you pick him up to calm on your shoulder?

[SeanAosta]

Hi Rafaela,

It sounds like you are in the same boat as me these days.
I think in our case our babies don't exactly have the typical 45 min sleep cycle, or else they have gotten used to just sleeping for 30 mins at a stretch ( or we have let them get that way  :oops: )

I am trying wake to sleep at the moment and so far it is working fairly well. I am still tweaking and refining it.

What I do is take the start of sleep time to be when his breathing evens out and he no longer has any twitches.
This can be as little as 5 mins after going down, or as long as 25.. depending on how stimulated he has been before nap time.

I can't stress how important a wind-down time is.
You are probably doing this alerady, but I was a bit slow on the uptake and so have a 17 week old that was completely demented going to sleep and would never stay asleep long.
I have to make sure that he doesn't get to excited during his play time, and also start to take away his toys/distractions about 20 mins before I want him to go to sleep.

since I have done that, and use a consistent wind-down routine, he will go to sleep with minimal whinging (he does a lot of talking and grizzling .. but that is his way of settling down.. took me a long time to recognise that too.. heheheh)

I'm not sure I understand your question about planning, but I hope what I've said so far helps.

Cheers

Jackie

[Deb_in_oz]

in BWSAYP Tracy identifies 2 of the most common reasons for sleep of under a full cycle = overstimulation or lack of sleep ritual (using 4 Ss like swaddling etc)

do you have the book to look at these sections??

[Taylor's Mommy]

infants start to come out of deep sleep at 30 minutes, so some may wake up right when they start to come out of deep sleep (like my dd did this morning when I kept her up too long! :roll: )

Regarding how long to keep them in the crib, only you know your baby and what your comfort zone is.  In my experience though when Taylor was this little I wouldn't keep her in the crib longer than about 10-15 minutes before I would pick her up and do some consoling.  Of course if she was cryign HYSTERICALLY though I wouldn't even wait that long, maybe just a couple of minutes.

HTH

[M&M's Ima]

thanks everyone. I don't have the new book, but will review the first one.

I thought a wind down routine would be the simplest part of this, but it is actually taking me a long time to figure out. 
I need to exchange nursing to calm him with a good routine.
We don't swaddle, since he tummy sleeps.

the problem is, as soon as I darken the room, he starts to get restless. rarely will he get calmed by anything if I'm holding him still in teh dark room. so i nurse him, or i just put him in.

our routine is way to short:
--walk around the house with him on my shoulder and my hand on his back, telling him it's time for bed.
--go into room and close shades
--walk around room a tiny bit, talking or saying shh (recently, this has turned into a
 --quick nurse til he's almost asleep
--put him on my shoulder - now his eyes are open again)
--move over to crib and hold him still for a second
--put him down, telling him it's time for bed, and he know how to fall asleep, and I'll be there to help him.

Does anyone have advice for consolidating this, or doing something more calming? once we're in the room, he's generally fussy, unless, again, i resort to nursing him.

I think this will really help wtih the whole sleep thing - if i get a solid routine.

[KellyC]

Hi there

I haven't been able to find a wind-down routine for Zander since he was a few weeks old.  Whatever I do stimulates him and as soon as I swaddle him he fusses and/or cries as he knows he's going to have a nap.  There's absolutely no chance of sitting with him for 5 minutes as part of the 4S routine so we usually just end up going into the dark room, swaddling and down for the nap.  I'd love to find something that chills him out before a nap but no luck so far!

Kelly x

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

Hi! My son does the same thing when swaddled because he knows what is coming next. I think that is good because that is what we want. We want our babies to know what to expect. I noticed my son fusses a lot more if he is overtired. I know that my 3.5 cant be up longer that 1 hr., so I try to be very careful.

I do the wind down before the swaddle. I change the diaper, then if he has been wound up I slow dance to a lullabye or whisper in his ear while holding him, swaddle, pick him up to tuck in the wrap (on the miracle blanket), tell him I love him etc, and then lay him down. He usually fusses as soon as I swaddle, better when picked up, and then fussy again when laid down. Sometimes he will cry (mantra) for 5-10 min after laying down. I used to stay with him, but that just made it worse. Now, I leave the room and clean or something to not deal on it as it bothers me. I still listen to see if progresses or prolongs. He almost always stops and lays quiet until he falls asleep.  HTH

[M&M's Ima]

Can a wind down routine be out of the bedroom? Even if sometimes there will be people around?

Kelly and Gage's Mom, do you find that your routine is too short? That your baby wakes mid-cycle, or only if you've missed his window?

Thanks, again. I'm really trying to figure this out.

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

I wouldnt do the wind down with people around for a couple of reasons. First, babies dont want to miss out on any excitement, so I think this would increase the protest. Also if your lo is like my son, he will be distracted. This is a time to relax and get ready for bed not play (as my son is famous for).

I think wind down can be done in another room if it is quiet and consistent. I think it is better in their bedroom, but another room would work.

I think a routine only has to be 5 or so min. However, if Gage has been playing or has been around company etc., I take him into his room about 15 min BEFORE his nap to have a low key activity. I have learned that overstimulation is even worse than being overtired. And the 2 of them together is AWFUL! Anyway, at bedtime we do a different routine that lasts about 20 min as I am trying to teach my son the difference between a nap and bedtime.

If your lo is consistently waking up early, I would try putting him to bed earlier. It is better to have your lo in the crib farting around than being overtired. I usually allow 20-40 min for falling asleep (this includes farting around time or mantra crying).

My son takes 45 min naps a lot, and rather than get frustrated I just went with them. I jsut know that he will need about 6 or so of them. Also, I just try to get him to sleep in in the morning as he way tired in the afternoon/evening. So Gage gets up between 9 and 10 and goes to bed around 8:30 and 9:30. I decided this works better because he NEEDS a nap in the evening which prolongs his bedtime. I dont know if that is right, but it has been working better than trying to fit him into the EASY schedule in the book.
HTH

[KellyC]

I'd love to have a longer wind-down but it just doesn't happen.  As soon as Zander has yawned or started to get agitated he needs to get to bed - there just isn't time for anything else as everything stimulates him.  I think it's just his personality.  He knows it's nap time when he's swaddled - that's when he starts screaming!!

Kelly x

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

oh yeah, same with Gage. That is why I quit waiting until he yawned, instead I watch the clock. I know this is bad, but this is the only thing that has worked. Imonitor his A time, and when he has been up for 45 min in the bedroom he goes. Almost always he is ready for bed. He lays in his crib for 20 to 40 min and he is out. The great thing is he REALLY likes his bumper, and he is content just looking at. Dont get me wrong, he fusses before bed sometimes for 5- 10  min, but after he realizes that there are bright red cars to look at he is fine.

I see this now, as we are having sleep issues :oops: I hope it goes back to the way it was.

[KellyC]

Gage's mom - do we have the same baby?!!!

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

You know I was thinking the same thing. I have seen some of your posts and, I think we are experiencing similar issues. Is Zander transitioning to a 4 hr EASY? We are really struggling with this. Sorry this probably a separate post :oops:

[Taylor's Mommy]

Taylor was very much like Zander in that once she started getting tired there wasn't much time for a winddown.  She would get very upset and sometimes scream bloody murder.  What I finally had to end up doing was starting winddown before she even started showing tired signs.  So until she was about 3 months max awake time was about 1 hour, so around 40-45 minutes after being awake,  I would start the winddown even if she didn't seem tired.  Halfway through our winddown she started to show her sleepy signs so that I could act quickly and get her in the crib.
This seemed to work best for us.  In a way it was a combo of watching the clock and watching her cues.
I remember at the time when my lo was about the same age as all of yours we had a similar thread going with a bunch of other moms titled "screaming during winddown!!!".  We supported eachother and shared ideas how to get past this stage much like you are all doing!   

Eventually it will get better and when they start to reach Taylor's age you don't really even have to do a winddown most of the time!   :wink:

Good luck ladies and keep supporting eachother!

[KellyC]

Hi

We've seen a big improvement in Zander today.  He's still crying when he's tired but it's sounding more like a mantra cry than a screaming bloody murder cry!  I've put him down for 3 naps and each time he's stopped crying and started to put himself to sleep as soon as I've put him down - this is the only Christmas present I wanted!

Gage's mom.  I don't think Zander's ready to move to a 4 hour routine yet because although he could probably go 4 hours between feeds he still can't stay awake long enough.  Even now he's napping slightly better his max awake time is still 1 hour 15 minutes.  We're finding he's eating now in the middle of his activity time and this is working fine until the next thing changes!!

Kelly x

[Gage and Sophie's Mom]

Zander's mom, could you post a sample daily routine for me to compare ours to? Gage has not been eating very well. Like today he has only eaten 9oz from 6:45am to 1:30pm. He has only drank this amount because I keep offering it to him because I dont want him to go to bed hungry. That is not like him, he usually will eat aout 40z + a feed. I am getting a little worried.

[M&M's Ima]

hi!

Kelly, what does a mantra cry actually sound like?

i found something that i think works well for a wind down. do you moms think it is too much like playing?

go into room, singing lullaby
close shades/light
lay him on back on my bed - the only way to calm him, - and rub his stomach
then up to my shoulder for a quick hug, and down to his crib.
this way, no fussing before he hits the crib.

worked like a dream for us this morning, but he was also calm from his bath.

when he's on his back, tho, he thinks it's play time. if i look at him he starts smiling and squirming. but it's dark, and i'm singing , so i think he will know the difference.


i know this is different for every baby, but about how long is this 'window'?
also, about when cAn i expect him to want to be up longer than an hour?

He seems to have lately shrunk his awake time. If I look at him and not at the clock, I'd be putting him down after 40 minutes, instead of an hour and a quarter like last week.

[KellyC]

Merry Christmas!

I got the best ever present from Zander.  He's now going down for all his naps without a peep (unless he's particularly tired).  Even today when we weren't at home (although we did take his own crib with us to mum and dad's - he has a baby hammock!).  All his naps were short but he had lots.  The only nap we struggled with was the (alleged) cat-nap.  He screamed loads and I told DH to go up and cuddle him on the bed but this just didn't work.  I eventually went up and put him down in his hammock and he went straight to sleep - I've taught him well it seems!  This so called cat-nap was the only long nap of the day and I eventually woke him up to feed him and bring him home for his bath and bed.  What a star!

Gage's mom - I really don't have an 'average' day with Zander at the moment.  I guess once he's more consistent with his naps I will have but everyday is still different at the moment and I'm trying really hard to listen to him and watch his cues instead of the clock.  I'll make a note of what we do next week and get back to you though, no problem.

M&Ms Ima - I really don't think I could describe Zander's mantra cry.  It's more of a moan and he puts such little effort behind it (unlike his over-tired, help me mom cry!) that it hardly seems worth him doing.  It's not very loud and doesn't escalate in volume.  He sometimes stops then does a little more after a while before (hopefully) settling himself and going to sleep.

Hope you all had a fab day.

Kelly x

[M&M's Ima]

Way to go, Zander!
 

I'm seeing progress with Menachem's naps too, thank G-d. The first two naps today and yesterday he went down quietly. I have to stay til he's very asleep, but i don't mind for now. By the afternoon he's kind of up and down with short naps, so by evening he is pretty overtired, but it seems some of that is inevitable anyway.

[Taylor's Mommy]

Way to go Zander and Menachem!!!  SO happy to hear you are both seeing success.  I swear to you that after several weeks of doing pat/shush and then pu/pd I really never thought there would come a day when Taylor could go down for naps/bed without a struggle, and when it finally did happen, I was elated!!!!!

Great Job Everyone!!!