Success sorting daytime naps for 3mth! But some questions

[spudballoo]

I have a 3.5 month old baby boy who has always been a fantastic night sleeper, settled himself in to a bedtime of 7.30pm around 2 weeks and went down to one feed a night (around 4.30am) at 6 weeks.  Daytimes have always been difficult however, with few naps, never more than 45 minutes and eventually all taking place with rocking, bouncing, breastfeeding to sleep. And then taking place on me. 

When nightsleep suddenly became appalling a few weeks ago I realised that now both days and nights were terrible and that something had to change!

I started tackling daytime sleep last Monday (8 days ago) and have really had great success.  Since then he has napped 4-5 times a day, every day.Every nap has taken place in his cot, and only one has had to be aborted as he cried for the entire nap  

I have stayed home this entire time, apart from Christmas Day, to focus on the naps and to tune in to his sleep signs.  I can't believe how BLIND I was to them previously; I was convinced he needed to nap 2 hours after he got up.  I couldn't be more wrong; it's around an hour! And if I don't act immediately on his sleep queues (arms waving around is the first one) then getting him down is a challenge. If I get him in his cot as soon as the arms start to wave, he goes down with about 5 mins grumbling. 

He hates the shush, and the pat. And hates to be soothed out of the cot, and then put back. So I lie next to him (he has a bedside cot) and put one arm across his chest and arms, and the other over his legs, and apply gentle pressure..a kind of human swaddle!  If he becomes very distressed I will verbally reassure him, in between mantra cries I do a very gentle 'shoooooosh', more like white noise than a proper shush.  And this does the trick!

I exit the room as soon as the eyes start to droop and I rarely have to go back.

Now for the questions.  I am now tackling extending the naps, and managed this twice today.  I have tried wake to sleep, but have not had success with this, either by going in and stroking him at 30 mins, or applying the human swaddle ready for the jolt. What does work is letting him wake up, lie there for a few minutes quietly, and then starting the human swaddle/ shoooooosh once he starts to fuss.  BUT, he then goes through 5-6 cycles of REM before he will eventually go in to a deep sleep and I can leave the room. So I'm in there for 30 mins helping in to another cycle.  Just wondered if it's usual for the 2nd cycle to be harder to get going, I guess he's very tired and finds it hard to 'let go' in to deep sleep. If I leave the room too early he cries and I have to start the whole thing again. 

I know it's very early days but just looking for any ideas on how to join the two 45 min cycles together more easily?  His overall nap is 1.5 to 1.75 hours but it's not solid sleep. 


Also, I am not yet confident about putting him in his cot and leaving him to it.  How will I know when to try this, I'm concerned that I will become the prop? 

Very long post, apologies! Feeling very pleased with progress thus far and am so proud of myself (!!) for tackling it. I'm pretty exhausted as nights are still terrible, despite my hopes that better daytime naps would help with the night wakings.  Also got terrible cabin fever, but I know it will be worth it in the long run!

Thanks so much - Spud and Bertie, 15 weeks x

[Colesmom]

Hi there,

Good job on improving his day sleep so far. There are still improvements to be made.  And you are right, sleep begets sleep.  Once he is sleeping better in the day the nights are likely to get better as well.

Your son is very close to reaching 4 months old and around that time Tracy recommends moving to a 4 hours EASY schedule.  Could you please post your feed and sleep schedule (approx.) so we can see how you need to adjust.
If you still have DS on a 3 hour feed schedule then he won't have enough time between feeds to have a proper nap.   You should be working towards having 2-3 naps a day. 

Have you looked at the announcements at the top of the nap forum?  This will give you an idea of how much sleep you should expect your lo to have:

http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/typical-hours-of-sleep-for-ages-1-week-to-6-years-vt3195.html

and this may give you ideas on conquering the short naps. 

http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/teaching-3-5mos-to-overcome-the-45min-naps-vt39769.html

I think that you need to gradually increase your awake times.  The first awake interval is typically shorter but the others should be longer than an hour for sure.

Also, do you have The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems?  If so, page 34 shows the differences between the 3 and 4 hour EASY schedules.  It would be a good place to start.

Once I see your schedule I'll be able to advise further.

thanks

[spudballoo]

Traci...thanks so much for responding! I have read the sleep interview, the suggestions on hours of sleep per day and Tracy's new book....just a little desperate then....LOL!

Bertie only made it to a 3 hour feeding schedule in the last 3 weeks, previously it was every 2 to 2.5 hours.  He got to 3 hours at 12 weeks but was totally thrown by his 12 week innoculations (which also brought on the night sleep issues).  So, in fact, he has only consistently been on 3 hourly feeds for the last 10 days.  But I have been wondering about 4 hours as he isn't really getting 'antsy' for a feed at the 3 hour mark.  How will I know when to stretch to 4 hours?  He was 6lb 3 at birth. 

I think the one hour Activity (which is so surprising to me!) is due to him being chronically over-tired and catching up somewhat. Also, as I mentioned, nights aren't great. he's waking every 3 hours, and I'm struggling as to what is hunger and what is something else. The night wakings aren't at a regular time really, just vaguely 3 hours apart.

Today's schedule was:

7am wake and E
7.20am - S
8.00am - A
9.00am - S
10.00am - E
10.20am - A
11.00 - 1.00pm - S
1.00pm - E
1.30pm - A
2.30pm - S
4.00pm - E
4.30pm - A
5.15pm - S
6.00pm - A, bath etc
7.00pm - E
7.30pm - S

Pretty textbook, apart from the feed pre-sleep (but I don't feed him to sleep!) and the sneaky nap he got in at 7.20am. 

I can't believe he REALLY can only stay awake an hour at a time, I believe this to be a hangover from poor nights and weeks of me depriving him of daytime sleeps  :oops:  :oops:  :oops: 

x

[Colesmom]

Hi Spud,

After re-reading a thought occurred to me.  You said his night sleep got worse a few weeks ago?  That sounds like his three month growth spurt.  He was likely waking for additional feeding if you didn't cluster him at night or provide a dreamfeed.  It also sounds as though this coincided with when you starting stretching his feedings out.  For a couple of nights I would try either doing a DF around 10-11pm, or clustering an extra feed in before bed.  This will give him some extra calories in the day and might see him through longer.  Another idea would be to feed him as you usually do at each feed, then put him back on the first side to get more into him. 

If you are doubting when to feed him in the night, I would pick at least one 6-8 hour stretch and not feed during that time. 7pm-3am for instance.  Of course, this is after satisfying what seems to be his growth spurt

You are right that he should definitely be able to stay up longer than an hour.  What signs are you looking for that he's tired?  My DS will sometimes rub his eyes after an hour even now...but he'll get a second wind shortly thereafter.

What is his weight now?  He had a healthy birth weight so I would think he's ready to go four hours between feeds.  There is a schedule in BWSAYP of how to go about switching from 3-4 hours (sorry-don't have it handy right now for page ref).  I would suggest doing this once he is 4 months old.

It will take a few days of adjustment, but your DS will do much better have 2-3 longer naps than the shorter ones he seems to be having.

Also-if you feed him at 7 am and he goes back down it's still considered night sleep, not a nap. 

I hope this helps you some.  I think if you increase his calories during the day to start it might solve some of your issues.

[spudballoo]

Yes, I do think you're right that he is ready to make a move towards 4 hour EASY.  Today I decided to feed him when he got antsy for it, thus far 3.5 hours between each. 

Naps aren't going great today, we're only on day 10 of sleep training...going down is ok (as long as he's not overtired), extending is a bit hit or miss. 

The sleepy queue I am looking for is waving his arms around jerkily, this is swiftly followed by shouting.  If he's not in his cot by the 2nd shout I am in for a rough ride. Yawning and eye rubbing doesn't take place until either he's overtired, he's shouted for too long before I got him in his cot, or when I put him in his cot.  There seems to be a VERY short timeframe to get him to bed, which makes my 'wind down' routine super short and often goes out of the window. Probably doesn't help.

You are right that the night wakenings coincided with his 12 week growth spurt, plus jabs. Really looking forward to the 16 week one! (Next week, joy).  I have never done a dream feed, never needed to! I introduced one a week ago, but so far he's only been asleep for it once - all other times he's woken around 10-11 so I fed him anyway.  He used to cluster feed from around 5-6.30pm, kind of non stop feeding, but he stopped that. Probably around the time all these problems began!  Last night I did a cluster feed, but didn't make a whole lot of difference. Still woke at 11 (fed), 1.45 (fed - although pretty sure this was wind pain), 2.45 (ignored him), 4.15 (fed), 5.30 (ignored him), 6.00 (fed), 8.00 - got up.

He was 6lb 3 at birth, and he was 12lb 8 at 13 weeks.  He's probably getting on for 14lb now. 

I'm probably being stupid, but is the theory behind 4 hour feeds improving night sleeping that they are more hungry for their feed and thus take more calories?  Of course I am afraid that less feeds = more hungry at night! 

I'm so grateful for your help and support - I would feel so alone without the support of everyone here!

x

[KellyC]

Hi there

I'm just starting to move my DS onto a 4 hour EASY too.  I'm spending the first 3 days just trying to keep him awake for 1.5 hours as he was only making 1.25 hours - it's going surprisingly well!  I'm also going to be re-introducing a dreamfeed as DS keeps waking up hungry in the night, he hasn't done this in weeks so it's very strange  :?

The idea of giving less feeds on a 4 hour EASY is that because they're more efficient feeders and their tummies are bigger they can take more at each feed and therefore get the same amount in less feeds.  I'm BF (can't remember if you're BF or Bottle) so I guess I'll just have to trust my instincts that this is happening!

Oh dear, DS is waking up after only half an hour of his nap - we're getting over the short naps but definitely not there yet!  Must go.

Kelly x

[Colesmom]

I'm probably being stupid, but is the theory behind 4 hour feeds improving night sleeping that they are more hungry for their feed and thus take more calories? Of course I am afraid that less feeds = more hungry at night!

Being that they weigh more and can go longer between feeds it ensures that they have adequate time to have a proper nap.  It's hard to get a two hour nap if A time is 2 hours and you're feeding every 3 KWIM?  And yes, you want him to be hungry enough to take a good 6-8 oz.  If you feed more often he'll become a "snacker" and therefore require more food in the night.  It looks like he fed every 2.5 hours last night. Did he take a good feed?  Was he sucking strong for about 10-15 minutes?  If not it could be wind or just wanting to be with mummy.  If you think he's taking enough calories in the day, try and have him go a 6 hour stretch. If you feed at 11, try to hold out until 5.  Do you feed both sides during the night?  If so, maybe try to reduce it down to one side for each feed to start.

Tracy also says "sleeping through the night" is skipping a feed cycle.  So if you feed every 2.5 hours you can only expect a 5 hour stretch whereas if you're feeding every 4 hours you should get 8 hours. Some babies take longer to drop the DF than others.  My DS is VERY active and has only started going 8 hours.  Some say he should be able to go all night but at 9 months he's only just over 18 lbs.  I am going to try and drop all night feeds after his 4th tooth comes in and the 9 month spurt is past (hopefully next week)

I totally understand about the support network on this forum.  I would have been completely lost without it in August.

Hugs to you.  You'll get through this...it will just take time and patience.

[spudballoo]

Thanks everyone for your help and support! xx

You're right, he has become a snacker.  When he wakes in the night he feeds for only 10 mins max, and is very lazy about it too.  I can take him off after a few mins and he'll go right back down. 

I've been away for a few days, and I had to feed him to keep him quiet (open plan rented cottage, nightmare). but last night I didn't feed for the 1.45 wake up, which I'm convinced is habit, and I got him back down within about 15 mins. We'll see where we get to tonight. 

Usually I do feed, bath, feed, bed.  But he's been SO windy as I struggle to wind him before bed that tonight I did feed, bath, bed.  He went down fine, so I'll be interested to see if I actually make it to 11pm when I want to dream feed him.  He normally wakes with wind before this. 

I'm convinced he needs to go to 4 hourly feeds. I'm still doing 3.5 hours but getting there very easily and he isn't looking for food at this point. he is often quite sick afterwards, which he has never been up until now.  What do you think?

Naps still not great though, although I've put him down a couple of times recenlty totally awake and he's put himself to sleep. This is a huge achievement for us!  but the 45 min naps continue, although I can extend once or twice a day with a lot of hard work.

I just don't know whether to accept the 45 min naps, or work on them some more.  But I know 4 hour EASY won't be at all easy without longer naps.  But then 4 hour feeds 'could' help with night sleep. Which 'could' help with daytime sleep.

Oh decisions decisions! 

Anyone have any thoughts?!!

xx

[spudballoo]

Well that was an interesting night. Woke at 11 and I fed him, 2.30 (shush/pat back to sleep) 4.00am with wind and couldn't be comforted so quick feed...then awake at 7.20am! Our best night in 4 weeks.

I'm thinking wind is a big problem, not doing a feed immediately before bed made a huge difference I think.

Hoorah!

x

[Colesmom]

looks like you're on the right track!  good for you