March/April '05 Thread #4

[Olivia's Mommy]

JO--thanks! Maybe we should get Fraser and Liv together sometime...they can be grumpy together! And thanks for the feeding tips. How did you go to 3 feeds, did you just drop one cold turkey?
KATE-- "where the deuce"? I've never heard that before, but I like it...cute!
HAYLEY--my dad joked about putting together a catalog (with his one item) and taking orders. So, I'll let you know if that happens. LOL
ERIN--You deserve a break sometimes, too, and who better to take care of your LO than Daddy.
ANDREA--sorry, can't help on the AF question as I've only had mine once since stopping bfing...and that was a couple of weeks ago. Are you on the pill? I am again, and I know that's supposed to regulate the timing and stuff...we'll see if that works. (Sorry, if that's too personal.)
TRACI---[[[[[[HUGS]]]]]]]] to you. You so deserve it! I can't imagine doing the night wakings for as long as you have...almost 2 weeks of it nearly killed me. If I could take him for the night and let you get some good sleep, I would!!!! For now, all I can do is send you HUGS and good sleep vibes.
CATHY--[[[[[HUGS]]]] to you as well...hang in there!!!

OK, I'm almost scared to say...we had a really good night last night (please don't hate me Traci & Cathy!). Liv fussed quite a bit when DH put her down at 7:30, but once she was down, she went right to sleep and slept until 7:45 this morning. She did wake once, about 11:30, but she had settled herself and was asleep again by the time I got in there. I don't know what her deal has been for the last 2 weeks, maybe it was just all the holiday chaos. I wish I had some insight to offer you who are still dealing with it, but I don't know what happened. (And who's to say it won't happen to us again tonight!)

I've noticed many of you are giving your LOs bread. What kind do you give? I want her to like whole wheat/grain bread, so I don't want to start her on white, but I'm afraid whole wheat/grain bread will be too course and she'll choke. What are you guys doing?

Well, better go check on the munchkin...have a great day all!!

[Judy]

Nancy I give the girls whole wheat bread toasted (so it doesn't get as gummy and maybe then get stuck)  I wait until they have more teeth and are better with more chunky stuff before giving them grainy bread.  My older girls have never had plain old white bread.

Traci & Ankie - gosh I wish I had some good ideas for you two gals.  I know how awful it is to go without sleep.  I get really frustrated when I'm up and tired in the night.  It's not pretty!     Traci I think it makes great sense to forget the clock and stick with the 9.30 and 2.30 naps.  Afterall watching his A time isn't helping so at least - good naps or not - you'll know when nap time is and you can plan your day around that as much as you want.   And maybe moving to a later bedtime will help with night sleep - sounds like he's starting out the night with a good long solid nap then being very wakeful for the rest of the night.  Hopefully it all pans out very soon.  It's soooooo exhauting.

So the dr.'s went ok.  Dh managed to make it there thankfully.  I think I'm hard to please.  I find I'm always feeling disappointed in dr's.  This is my second pedi and I don't much care for my own family dr..  I switched to this guy because he's very knowledgeable and is an infectious disease specialist (found him at the hospital when Sarah was really really sick at 4months)  But I feel like he's bored with the day to day well baby stuff.   Today he weighed, measured and gave the girls their needles but when I asked about the older girls weight (I had weighed them and basically just asked what the avg weight was for their age) and he just said "they look like they're fine to me"  So I said "thanks, we'll see you at the one yr visit" and left.  *sigh*  Am I just difficult?  I'd ask DH but I already know his answer :oops:

[Judy]

Oh I asked about homo milk and he said their concern with homo milk is the lack of iron.  If babies are taking cereal really well then it's not a concern because they are getting the iron through the cereal.  He said an alternative would be to give an iron supplement in the cereal too.  Then you'd know they weren't at risk of becoming anemic.

Does that help anyone?

[Olivia's Mommy]

JUDY--thanks for the tip on bread. The bread I buy for me is whole grain so it's got the nuts and grains and stuff in it. You're talking about just plain wheat bread, right? I suppose that would be OK.

TRACI--I started sticking to regular nap times about a month ago. I found that no matter what time Liv got up, she was ready for a nap around 10:30. So her nap times are now 10:30-10:45 and between 2:30 and 3:00. She seems to do well with that (even when she was waking at night on our vacation, her naptimes remained consistent, and she took fairly good ones). Hope it starts working for you!! ((((((((HUGS!)))))))))

[mickymuscles]

hi girls!

so another dumb  :?:  if I'm dropping the lunch bottle I'm still technically giving 4 feeds a day right? Breakfast/bottle, lunch, snackbottle, dinner/bottle....I know it doesn't really matter but I'm just curious with you girls that are saying that you are doing 3 feeds a day.

traci: when we were trying to phase out feeding at night i took Jack settling at all as a sign that he wasn't really hungry.  When he was truly hungry he would NOT settle even for 2 seconds.  Maybe???  who knows though with these little ones.

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Erin, yes go to the party!

Sorry for all you girls having rough nights still too!  Well we stuck to the plan last night, D woke at 4am, DH went in and resettled, all was good and he was back in bed in 5mins until N woke up screaming  :roll: , so D decided to join in  :roll:  - we bascially tag teamed them for 1hr  :roll: .  At least D didn't require a feed, I know she would have settled the first time great.  My problem with Nathan is he doesn't want me in the night  :cry:  - DH has always dealt with him since I was preggers, so he used to that.  Anyway, he got over it pretty quickly (after a short tanty) and was then asking for mummy when I did leave the room when he told me to go away.

Andrea, no AF here either, so can't help.

Traci, we stick with set nap times (I think I mentioned the other day they've changed), but we're now at 9.30 and 1.30pm.

Nancy, my bread advice isn't going to help, we do the gluten-free and it's almost like eating muffins, kind of heavy and crumbly. :?

Judy, pleased the dr visit went well and that DH managed to turn up to help.  I really have to build myself up to take my two to the doctors esp if we have to wait.  And last time Nathan was leaping around the dr's office and jumping and doing stunt rolls of the step stool.  :roll: - she thought he was funny, but then suggested I get a book on discipline when I asked about something to do with his behaviour - I wanted to rule out a medical issue (one of the evil types  :twisted: ).

Anyway I get annoyed at saying things and being 'ignored' - it really bugs me.

I struggle with this too, so now I know I need to not put MYSELF in that position, because like you say, it's his job right now to ignore.  I know it's because I haven't been creative (or can't be bothered) enough to come up with something.

Interesting eh? I wanted to blame her for the whole BIGness of the incident and yet it was MY reaction that set the tone. So often that's it isn't it? *sigh* another lesson learned for next time - and there's always a next time for trying again isn't there?

Yep, hear you on this. Hindsight huh?  I always think after a bad episode that at least it's a learning lesson for me and not to beat myself up over it. 

Karen, how about you post your recipe straight into Baby Recipes forum, did I read about another recipe you've given out that I missed?

Thanks everyone for the feedback about 3 feeds a day, I think I'll kind of wing it for now, if we miss it or we're out I won't worry about it, but if at home I'll offer.  Nathan was sooooo hard to wean his feeds at this age, but she's going to be a breeze.

Jo, that is interesting that Fraser is back to both sides, I also find Danielle does that too, so maybe we won't be far off completely going to 3 anyway.

[Colesmom]

Nancy-I too give whole wheat bread toasted.  it is a bit choky if he doesn't get it nice and soggy...but he's getting better at it.  My friend's doctor gave her trouble for not introducing more chunky/textured food by nine months because she has seen some really bad cases where babies develop gag reflexes because they get so used to the soft mushy stuff.  HTH  Also-regarding Livs naps...how long does she go between them?  Cole woke at 10:15 today...so it will be 4.25 hours before he goes down again.  Seems long BUT the other day he slept 2 hours after 4.25 hours A, so we'll see.

Traci I think it makes great sense to forget the clock and stick with the 9.30 and 2.30 naps. Afterall watching his A time isn't helping so at least - good naps or not - you'll know when nap time is and you can plan your day around that as much as you want.

thanks Judy.  I was just out running around and he started yawning and rubbing his eyes after 2.5 hours!  I was really hoping he wasn't going to fall asleep in the car.  Seems he's got a second wind going though as he's having a ball in his exersaucer now. 

traci: when we were trying to phase out feeding at night i took Jack settling at all as a sign that he wasn't really hungry. When he was truly hungry he would NOT settle even for 2 seconds. Maybe??? who knows though with these little ones.

  thanks Micky-see, I interpret it that he can settle when I'm there, regardless if he's hungry, in pain or whatever but when i'm gone it's like he remembers the hunger/pain kwim?  hmmmm.

I have a week to get this little guy figured out.  DH starts his CMA course next week which will involve weekends again.  He is already stressing!  I will have to live with a stressed DH for 16 more months.  This designation better pay off.

okay-so cole is up to MORE crazy stuff.  I have an antique bench blocking the xmas tree.  he keeps dropping stuff behind it.  today he grabbed the back of the bench and pulled himself up til his feet were in the air.  thank goodness he didn't figure out how to put his knee up at the same time.

he also almost launched himself out of his saucer.  he's on the last height now.

okay-getting mad at me...gotta go.

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Micky, I'm currently do 4 feeds - 7am,11,3,7pm.  When I go to 3 she'll merge the 11 and 3.  Looks like you maybe do an extra in there at the moment, so yes you'll go down to 4 - did I get that right?

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Traci, I'm with Micky on the settling signs.  If Danielle is quiet AT ALL, she's not hungry with or without me there so if gives me the nerve to follow through on the no feeding rule.  If she's hungry she would still be fussing and telling me to hurry up.

[solnme]

Morning!
Judy - My dr. pi***8 me off on a regular basis but have fun trying to switch MDs in BC.  I almost had to bribe him to take DH on as a patient. 

Traci & Cathy - I stand in awe of you.  Don't give up, just think about how strong you are and how prepared you'll be in the future to handle more rough stuff.

Richelle & Bec - I love energetic babies!  Sol is more of a watcher and only lets it rip at home. Picturing Sophie doing face dives in the tub cracked me up.

Nancy - I've been a little apprehensive about offering bread.  Keep us posted about how Liv takes to it. 

Been reading more about discipline lately. (Thanks for roping me in Nikki & Judy)  and found this article that says there are 3 basic discipline styles.  Power Assertive, Love Withdrawl and Induction. The later emphasives  on teaching children by giving them explainations and how that helps children be more empathetic.  This really struck a cord with DH. (he actually read the article  :shock: )  His parents were very dictative with the 'my way or highway' approach.  Him and his brother still call their Mom by her pet name; Mom -Mussolini! He has a hard time being empathetic to how I'm feeling sometimes if I'm being "difficult".  Let's face it sometimes I rant and rave like a raging bitch over loosing a pair of undies in the dryer.  His first reaction is to become defensive and personalize my reaction.  And if he happened to be the one doing laundry he immedietly trys to deflect blame. 
I found it interesting and got me thinking about how so many choices I make for Sol may tie into and impact his relationships in the future.

Whew!  Talk about the wait of the world.

Here it is if anyone wants to read it.   
http://www.selfhelpmagazine.com/articles/child_behavior/behavman1.html

To everyone with waking babies. Sol just woke up from another 45 min nap. :evil: Spent over an hour doing PU/PD for nap #2 yesterday.  Woke up 3 times during the night but I refused to get up for 2 of them.

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Thanks for that Roz it was an interesting read.

Caregivers vary in the demands that they place on children. Some adults establish high standards for responsible behavior, and they expect children to live up to those standards. Other adults, however, place few demands on children and seldom try to control children's behavior.

And this is still quite subjective I've found, because I USED to think I didn't have too high standards compared to other mothers I know and was on the lower end.  Yet, when I read about UP, I realised I was still expecting too much and have since lowered them a lot.  It's because society in general tells us (and our experiences) where the bar sits - look at the majority of discipline books/tv programmes out there.  So if that's the "bar" then I was lower than that, but not low enough.

Thanks for that.

[solnme]

Such a bad Mommy!  I stuck in a Baby Neptune video from the library.  It's his first time watching 'kid' TV.  I hope I don't create a monster. :? I put it in to get a chance to eat some breakfast.  I missed my chance cause I was on this site.  And of course I'm right back on it.

Just wanted to give a progress report.  Sol is now pulling up and standing on anything and started waving goodbye yesterday!  Yay little big man!

We dropped the after lunch bottle about 2 weeks ago cold turkey.  He just wasn't interested anymore.

Ok, bye. I know I'll be back.

[Richelle]

Traci - I am reading BWASAYP, pg. 242 through 249, I am not sure if you have read it or not or re-read since Cole's trouble started but I suppose you are so tired and frustrated it is hard to remain objective.  Here are few things I have summed up from reading the book ond your posts regarding Cole.

 :arrow: In the book Traci explains how one certain thing at this age can start a horrible snowball effect of sleep problems, from teethin, to food issues, to seperation anxiety, to a big scare or change.

Most likely one thing for Cole changed to effect his sleep and the remedy for said thing didn;t work once another milestone got thrown on the pile.  For example, it could have been the introduction of a certain food that caused gas, which I ALWAYS mistake for hunger in Sophie, and booby would help calm Cole and his tummy, then all of a sudden his teeth are coming in and the booby doesn;t work for teeth.  Then Cole learns to pull himself up and gets stuck which really helps get mommy there when his tummy and/or mouth hurt. 

So, all that said you know that Cole has nigth wakings and there are probably a different set of reasons for him to be waking up, therefore perhaps instead of trying to figure out what it is that is causing it and trying to fix that - maybe start from scratch in teaching him all over again how to sleep.

I was surprised in re-reading BWSAYP how to  adapt PUPD.  Here are some points I found interesting.

When he cries for you, go into his room, but wait for him to stand up.  An 8 to 12 month old can often settle a lot more quickly [/i]out of your arms.  In fact, in most babies over 10 months, I just do the PD method without picking up.  I think that Cole is so advanced physically, he has a skill set of an 11 month old physically, that this part does in fact include Cole.

Each time wait until he stands all the way up before you lay him back down again.  Then ...lay him down immediately the exact same way.  reassure him with a firm hand on his back.  At this stage you start using your voice even more b/c they understand so much.  Also name his emotions, "I'm not lweaving you, I know you are frustrated/scared overtired".    I thought this was imporatant b/c you said Cole will settle with a hand on the hip, therefore I think that is probably not an accidental parenting issue as long as you are reassuring him vocally.

When you've done PUPD to the point of your child's beingable to settle fairly quickly, it still may take 2 or 3 days (or longer) for you to get out of the room. 

Then it goes on past this with a couple of pages titled;  8 months to a year case study:  Multiple problems, One Plan

I won't quote it but I found the example very good for a strategy but obviously the problems don't resonate with Cole but still maybe give it a read if only for the strategy.  Pg.246 to 249.

I think it is great how indepth the book is re. PUPD but as an exhausted mom I think it would be a bit overwhelming.  The main points from the book, taken from the 12 reasons PUPD WON'T work.

1.  Your baby should be at least 4 months old

2.  If he is older than 6 months and doesn;t settle just place a hand on his back.  If that doesn;t calm him THEN do PUPD.  Also pleas note that you PU then IMMEDIATELY PD.

3.  It often isn;t just the sleep a parent needs to adjust or look at it is the whole day, including mainly food and activity. 

4.  PUPD has to be tailored for your child.  Also PU is only a response to a genuine cry not a mantra cry.  A frustrated baby is not a baby that needs rescuing but a baby that needs help.  It is OK for your baby to be frustrated as long as your are there teaching and reasurring.

5. PUPD needs to change as your baby changes, ie.  you hold a 4 month old until settled, 7 months and beyond you put straight back down.

6.  Parents have to try and keep there emotions out of it.  You muyst remain confident and consistent.

7.  The room must be sleep ready

8.  PUPD works differently for each child's temperment.  For spirited and touchy babies it takes alot longer.   

9.  One parent or partner is not ready, everyone helping needs to be on board that is going to help. 

10.  Basically the same as 9, I think she is just trying to drive home the point that you will need help and support from understanding parties.

11.  Your expectations are unrealistic, PUPD is not magic but a way to condition a baby to sleep and self soothe.

12.  YOu get discouraged and don;t stick with it.  It is VERY important to chart your progress, whether it be 2 minutes better ect...

Also very interesting is on pg.  260:

If it takes a child half an hour to go down doing PUPD yo will probably get a 3 hour window, so be prepared if you strated at 7 to do it again at 11:30 and 5ish

In another example it talks says you may have to do PUPD for over an hour and will only get 2 hour stretches of sleep for the first few nights so be prepared to get some shut eye when he is sleeping but you will see improvements even if only minor after the 1st few nights, which will I'm sure feel like eternity but maybe it is worth it?

Finally on pg.263.  There is the PUPD Survival Strategies.  I NEED to get back to house cleaning so I will leave it for you to read but maybe if you typed it out and printed a few copies and stuck them up in his room or by your bed or on the fridge it will help.

Anyway I am not sure of any of this is helpful but it sure has helped me procrastinate on this god awful house cleaning!

[kate585]

Hey, girls.  Just wanted to check in and give big (((Hugs))) to Traci and Cathy and a high five to Nancy (with the mandatory anti-jinx dance, of course!)   :wink:

I just tried to put Ryan down for nap # 2 since he was giving the cues, but he had none of it.  I think he was just bored and I misread him.  Got him out of the crib and brought him up here.  He is now going through the garbage.   :oops:   He started making these happy sounds, looked down and he's sucking on a light bulb.  Lovely!  Luckily, it's the office garbage, so no food or anything, but still.  Gross!  (You'll notice I am not stopping him, though.  Whatever it takes to stretch his A time for a later (and hopefully longer) nap!) 

OMG...just scrolled down to see who I missed and I think I missed an entire page.   :shock:   Sorry if I seem rude and didn't comment on anything.  Guess I should go catch up...or maybe pay attention to the light bulb sucker.   :wink:

[Colesmom]

Woke up 3 times during the night but I refused to get up for 2 of them.

Roz...does he settle fairly quickly if you don't get up?  Also, I think it was you a couple of weeks back he wouldn't let you leave the room, and you stood further and further away until you were out the door.  What do you do?  Reassure him with your voice?

Richelle my dear-you are so very sweet.  I think you put more thought into getting Cole to sleep than I do.  You are right, I do need to start from scratch.  I am trying to think back and maybe it was that darn zucchini that started it all but who knows.
I have read that section over and over...but thanks for the reminders.  I guess because I don't know his cries I just end up doubting myself. Obviously at his age I should expect it to take a long time.  I guess when it takes 20 min. at bed I don't expect it to take over an hour in the middle of the night kwim? 

Parents have to try and keep there emotions out of it. You muyst remain confident and consistent

i was able to do this at 4 months...but somehow now it seems harder. maybe it's the odd mamaaaaaaaaaa that he says or just that his cries are so much louder now. :oops: oh ya, and about the reassuring hand...that's where all this started...because he reaches out and holds my hand and i think it's become a prop.  i try to just touch his legs once he's nearly settled himself but last night i gave in again. and i've been letting him hold my hand for naps.  i'm okay with that as long as he gets his nights sorted out (apparently they use a different part of brain for naps and nights so it's okay to use different soothing methods-per weissbluth)

okay, so i have been totalling waffling until now.  I MUST do this for my sanity.  thanks again Richelle for the reminders and the motivation to do something about it. 

Roz-I forgot

His first reaction is to become defensive and personalize my reaction. And if he happened to be the one doing laundry he immedietly trys to deflect blame.

This is how I react.  I wonder what style my parents used.  I don't remember being punished.  In fact if anything they were too loose with their discipline.  hmmm.  something to think about. haven't read the link.  hoping to get to it tonight.

girls-DH going to basketball tomorrow so i am chatting for sure.  woo hoo.  i need to hang out with my posse!

oh ya-cole went down at 2:32.  we came upstairs at 2:20 for some quiet time...about 10-15 minutes later than i used to before nap.

gotta go get some shut-eye if i'm to be prepared for tonight.

OH-Judy-about the homo.  going to call my ped.  that seems silly. Obviously then people would want to do homo with iron/cereal supplement...so much cheaper than formula and tasted WAY better.  hmmm, makes me wonder.  thanks for the input though.  the girls starting homo soon then?