At the end of my rope....

[Carmela's Mom]

We did move it to 7:15 last night.  She was asleep by 7:40 and up for two hours again last night.  I really don't know.  She had her bloodwork yesterday so I'll see what those results are first.  Thanks for ALL the advice ladies! 

On a brighter note, I put her in at 12:45 today and she fell asleep within 6 minutes!!!!!!!!  She slept 1.5 hours and woke up so cranky

[claytonsmum]

What is her daily schedule?  What time is nap? 

Most importantly, what is your nighttime routine?  It does not sound to me like she is settled enough for bed.  If it takes her an hour to fall asleep, that's likely way, way too much in my opinion.  You need the hour before you put them to bed to be very quiet and low key.  I speak from experience here - we've had some of the worst sleep issues ever and are coming out of them after lots of patience.

I personally would try for a MUCH earlier bedtime for her.  You can try dinner at 5-530 pm, bath and bedtime routine at 615 pm and put her in bed at 630 or 645 - 7 pm at the LATEST.  She's overtired and bed at 830 pm is too late I think.  Sleep begets sleep, so they say.  If she were to go to sleep by 7 pm or so, then you can safely say she'll be more prepared for better sleep.  Sounds to me like she is just too wired or unsettled.  How old is she?  Can you talk through/process her day with her during bath and quiet time? 

Also, the more time you spend in settling her in the middle of the night is only teaching her that this is how she can get you in her room.  Waiting for an hour to say something really just teaches her she needs to talk/cry/scream for an hour to get you there.  Can you try to, if she's old enough, tell her you're not coming in until she's asleep and help her learn how to self soothe?

Hope some of this helps - send the routines you use and maybe we can help more.  It will be ok...   

[Carmela's Mom]

Carmela is 20 months old.  Carm's been doing this (up for hours in the middle of the night) her entire life.  She'll do it for a month or two, stop for a week or two and get right back onto it and that is why the doctors are concerned.  No matter what schedule we've had her on, she just wakes up.  We used to put her to bed at 6:30 and then she started waking at 4:30-5.  We pushed her back to 7:00 and then she would still wake earlier than 6, which is just not acceptable.  When we had her at 7:30 she'd sleep until 6:30-7:30 with even a few 8:00 threw in there!  And in the beginning (first few weeks she had no night wakings!)  It was heaven for two weeks.  Then it all started and now she's up for a few hours and up at 6:30.....last night we did put her in at 7:00.  She has a cold and clearly wanted to go to bed.  She was up at 6:15.  Thankfully we gave her Advil Cold because she is sick though so she pretty much slept through only waking for meds.  Carm's naps have changed to a later nap time.  We were putting her in 11:30 -- she wouldn't sleep, then 12:00 -- she wouldn't sleep, then 12:30 -- wouldn't sleep and now we have it at 12:45 where she is asleep within 10 minutes!  She ALWAYS sleeps for one hour and 45 minutes, which sounds like a decent amount of sleep to me BUT she wakes up cranky and remains that way for a good hour.  When she sleeps well at night, though, she wakes up wonderfully for naps. 

My problem with Carmela's sleep isn't even that she's having these issues BUT that she's not happy while having them.  Some people say to me maybe she only needs 10 hours of sleep a day, but she clearly needs more.  For the few weeks that she does sleep she is hte happiest toddler in the world.  She is a joy to be around and is so content.  When her sleep is messed up, she is the complete opposite!  It's night and day.  I don't blame her but it just shows she does need her sleep (anything less than 12 hours a day and she's an animal!!!)

Thanks so much for all your advice

[claytonsmum]

Oh I am so sorry for the rough time you are having - hugs!  I agree with you 100% that she needs the sleep - you know best - and from what you say, when she does sleep, it is great and she's happy.  Same with my son.  I hope the doctors can help with something.

We just came out of a really difficult spell with our son, now 2 years old.  We finally fixed the night wakings and early wakings but not sure if it would work for you.  However, I will at least tell you what helped us, and maybe something can work for you or give you new ideas.

What helped us:
1. 5 pm dinner, 6 pm bath, 630 pm yogurt, 7 pm bedtime
2. nap from 130 - 3pm
3. plenty of food during the day
4. reward stickers (for new trains) for good sleep
5. hour before bed is quiet, low-key
6. we don't go in his room in the middle of the night anymore if he's fussing/crying - we let him settle himself now, and it is the BEST thing we ever did.  We used pu/pd, controlled crying for almost 2 years and it just was not working anymore.  He was expecting us to help him get back to sleep ALL the time, even if it was just a 1 minute visit to fix a blanket.  Now that he's over his reflux and it's just habit, we had to break that habit.  (Oddly enough, fixing the night wakings FIXED the early wakings, so maybe one might help the other for you??)
7. Same routine every day so he knows what to expect.  If his days are always unpredictable, he sleeps horribly and is cranky and tired.

My son always wakes from naps a little tired a cranky, sometimes ALOT tired and very cranky - for about 30-60 minutes at times!  I just think it's a phase.

I hope something changes SOON for you - I know how you feel.  HUGS to you!!!  

[Carmela's Mom]

Thanks so much. 

We also have a very strict routine in our home.  It seems to help her transitioning better and she likes knowing what to expect.  She's sick with a cold now so today she wanted to take a nap at 12:15.  She went right in with no fuss so I'm thinking that helped.

After bath time for us, we used to let her play, THEN do snack.  Now we clean up before bath and after bath she is only allowed to play with her books to which we will read with her, etc.  I feel that is soothing.  We all sit on the couch as a family for like 30 minutes.  Then snack and then up to bed. 

We are going to do a 7:00 bedtime tonight (if not earlier with the cold).  I'm hoping we have a good night!  I'm also waiting to hear from the doc today.  Hopefully something gives soon

[Carmela's Mom]

We just heard back from the ped - no allergies, thyroid, anemia or anything   Great news   The ped wants me to remove milk products for one week and see if she has a lactose intollerance thing going on and if she still isn't sleeping, then we'll do the brain wave study.

She's sick right now so I'm going to wait until she's better before doing any of this.  And in the meantime, the cold medicine seems to do wonders at night time and nap time

[imsmum]

I registered when I saw your post because my 17 month old dd sounds just like yours!  Just wondering if you continued with the later naps and how that worked?

[Carmela's Mom]

Right now my daughter has a cold so today it was impossible to keep her up past 12:15, but we've been doing 12:45 and it's done wonders.  She still naps less than she needs (for whatever reason) but at least she is going down without a fight

[claytonsmum]

Great news from the ped - I am really happy for you!   

Our son has MSPI - milk soy protein intolerance - from what I know it's hard or impossible to test for... not sure of how we found out other than the sleep disturbances when he had whole milk.  He can have cheese and yogurt, but milk sends him into a tail spin.  He cannot have any soy.  He drinks Enriched Vanilla Rice Dream and we make sure he has plenty of fat with his cheese, full fat yogurt, olive oil on veggies, meats, etc.  The specialists we fly out to see about his reflux in Missouri were the ones that suggested the MSPI.

Good luck and lots of hugs your way!

[Carmela's Mom]

We've taken milk away since Christmas Day and at first we thought there was an improvement but that was short lived. 

It's hard because right now she has a cold, but so far it's 9:00.  She went in at 7:00, fell asleep at 7:25 and is already up talking in her crib.  And she was so exhausted at 7:00 she was falling asleep during our reading time!

Then she woke up at 10 coughing....fine.  But now it's 12:07 and she's STILL up playing in her crib.  She has her meds so I don't know what else I can do for her.  I went in twice already to try to get her to sleep but she whimpers when I leave and then goes on to play.  I am just at a loss.

[imsmum]

How long was she asleep when she fell asleep at 7:25?  I find that with my dd she is so overtired she has trouble drifting off and staying asleep during that first  sleep phase.  I find that if I hide in her room and just quickly put a hand on her when she stirs she'll drift off again otherwise she's awake and chattering away for ages.  Not sure if that would work for you and I know we're supposed to be fostering independent sleep but right now it seems like the priority is it just break the cycle of overtiredness.

Not sure if you stay in or go out of your dd's room when she falls asleep initially but I read in one of the other posts that night waking really improved once mum started leaving the room.  Not sure what else to suggest since we are still struggling with the same problem here.  Good luck!

[Carmela's Mom]

I'm glad to hear that everyone is up for 3-4 hours a night.  That sounds rude, but it helps to hear others are going through it too.

We put her in at 7:00 and the goal is to stay out until 7 a.m.  However, once she starts waking in the middle of the night and playing, my husband has been going in and saying "it's time for sleep" and going out.  That works about 25% of the time and is the only thing that works.  If I go in, nothing and if we don't go in at all (which we did for two months) nothing.