HELP!!! Settles down fine... but won't let me leave!!!

[Libby's Mom]

My dd is 9 1/2 months old.  We have a great bedtime routine & she settles down nicely for sleep.  Use to be, I could walk away, shut the door, she would coo a bit, make some complaints, bit of matra cry maybe, & go to sleep.  If she had trouble, I would go in, put my hand on her, say "it's ok, you're just going to sleep" etc., she would calm & go to sleep.

Now, when I start to leave the room she screams her head off.  I go back to settle her, but the "hand on her back" trick doesn't work anymore.  If I'm in the room (even if I'm giving no eye contact & not engaging her in any way), she rolls about in the crib, she "mamamama"s, she coos & plays, gets on her hands & knees & shakes the crib, which makes the mobile go, which makes her laugh... this can go on for HOURS!

Anybody have any advice at all??

On pages 245 & 246 of The BW Solves All Your Probs, TH describes a technique for getting out of the room after you've taught baby to settle using PU/PD, but I really don't understand it.  What is the point of being in the room if you're meant to be out of eye sight?  Any clues on that one?

Desperately seeking assistance,
[/b]

[CharlotteS]

Poor dear!  Sounds like some separation anxiety, maybe?

DS just started this about a couple of weeks ago.  He's never really let me do the PU/PD thing.  He either thinks it's time to play, or it just stimulates him.  So, that's out.  And if I look him in the eyes, that also stimulates him.  (And that's what I think the book means, that you should be out of your LOs eye sight because if you were to look in most babies' eyes, it would stimulate them.)  Also, if I stood over him in his crib to try and comfort him, he would roll all over the crib - basically thinking I'm there to play, even if I'm not looking at him or talking to him at all.

So, here's what I've been doing instead.  I do the whole bedtime ritual, and, instead of standing over the crib until he drops off, I sit on the floor next to his crib.  That way, he can still see me, but I'm looking away from him, not down at him.  Also, I'm at eye level so he can watch me while he's laying down. Another plus!  (Meaning, he doesn't have to sit up or lift his head to see me across the room.)  I might sing softly to him or whisper comforting things to him if I think he might need it.  Most times I'm completely quiet.  The longest I've had to sit on the floor next to his crib (so far) is 15 minutes.  (But I think the phone ringing in the middle of him trying to drop off was the main problem here!   :roll: )  Usually he just stares at me and drops off, or turns his head and drops off.

HTH!
Hugs!

[Libby's Mom]

Thanks for your reply, Charlotte!

Actually, what you're doing sounds a lot like what I have been doing lately - I sit on a bench beside the crib & not make eye contact or even say anything.  Previously I had been putting a hand on her back to calm her, but now she just rolls away.  Tonight I sat for almost 2 hours before she finally wore herself out.  (It may have taken that long because I tried to leave somewhere in there, I was getting so frustrated!  She started screaming & I had to go back.)

As Libby is generally a textbook baby, I would say this is about the right time for sep. anx., but I am still not sure how to proceed.

Regarding the book - it says to "squat out of her line of sight", but if she can't see me, then she starts screaming.  I'm afraid I don't understand the concept - why am I supposed to be in the room if she doesn't know I'm there? :?

Thanks again for your support.  Unless I can come up with something else, I'm just going to have to keep doing this & hope it gets better (my dh is away & I'm not sure I can do this alone... without LOSING IT :cry: )

BTW, do you know how I can lose all the blahblahblah that's attached to my signature?

[mommytsa]

Here's a thought, since I am going through this too.  What I have done is rather than sitting next to him is put him down and talk reassuringly to him from an area of the room where he can't see me (it's too dark!!  ).  He's not a "toucher" though, so really my voice works better 90% of the time anyway.  I just talk to him the entire time I'm winding him down and getting him ready to put in the crib and setting him down and all.  Then I calmly walk toward the door and the wailing begins.  SO I sit down and keep talking.  And talking, and talking for about 15-20 min.  I'll be quiet for a bit, and if he doesn't start fussing, then I try to make an escape.  Sometimes it works, sometimes I have to sit and talk more.  This has been going on for about 3-4 days now, but is really getting much better today.  I"m in there for a lot less time, and there's been less really upset screaming going on.  I think it's because I've been really focusing on dealing with the separation stuff pretty much all day  long.  When he's awake and playing, I'm doing little leaving the room tests.  When he's fussy, I've been doing the "oh, do you need a kiss and a cuddle?" and comforting him quickly, then distracting him.  Really, this separation stuff has been the overall focus of my waking hours for the past 3 days.  But, it's paying off.  I'm hopeful that he'll be over it come Monday, since that's when I go back to work.  What a way to spend my vacation, huh?      I figure it could have been worse, though.  I could have been at work and feeling guilty for leaving DH with a screaming baby all day.

I don't know if that will help you, or if I"ve just confused you more by rattling on so much, but I truly understand your desperation.  <<hugs>>  Post back if you have more questions.  I'm sure we can figure something out, and if nothing else, maybe we can help you keep at least a little of your sanity.

[CharlotteS]

Libby's mom -

I just read that part about squatting out of sight. You're right!  It doesn't make any sense.  At least, not in context with the other stuff that's going on in that scenario. ("She's already settled, you're standing by her, but now SQUAT!!"  What??? Is this hide-and-seek??)  I say, if your child needs to see you in order to sleep, let her see you.  Or, if she needs to hear you, let her hear you.  Especially during this tumultuous time of SA.  The thing I definitely agree with Tracy in this scenario is that you don't want to be in a "hostage situation" (p. 245).  I don't plan on sitting on the floor next to DS's bed forever, and I don't think it's a prop either.  He CAN go to sleep without me; I just make the transition smoother for him.

Actually, now that I think on it, Tracy would be proud of us.  It's part of a whisperer's code of honor to be able to tweak BW to work for our individual LOs. Don't you agree?  :wink:

As for all the blahblahblah in your sig, try going to your profile again, and see what's going on in your signature section.  The only thing that should be there (I think) is the html for the ticker.  Anything else is the blahblahetc.  However, I am NOT a tekkie.  You might want to ask someone else.  (You can post a question in the "web" section of the board.)

HTH, hon!
Hugs!

[CharlotteS]

Sorry, I totally missed this before I posted last time!

When he's fussy, I've been doing the "oh, do you need a kiss and a cuddle?" and comforting him quickly, then distracting him.

   :lol:    :lol:
DS sleeps facing the window, so I make the rod on the blinds swing back and forth so that his attention is on that and not me!  (Then I SQUAT!!!  j/k...)

[Johno & Aurelias Mum]

Hi

Libby's Mum asked me to take a look at this thread.

I think with the book, certainly one size does not fit all, you have to make some adjustments where necessary.  If you've been observing your LOs like you all have, you can see that and what you need to change.

I never did the crouching thing, in fact I never did the avoid eye contact thing either.  Particularly when we were going through sep. anx.  I found it made him worse because I wasn't acting 'normally'.

Have a read through the sleep interview again as that has some extra info not in the books.

I can't give you a magic answer but we have been through it.  When it was sep.anx. and he was clingy in the day, I did the gradual removal at night.  When it was sleep difficulty and him not concentrating on going to sleep, I first did the lie down and leave and then when he was concentrating did the gradual removal plan.

I can give you a detailed run down of what you do which I took from the book and from the sleep interview if you like.

[Libby's Mom]

Thanks, Everybody, for all your help & support.  I had a fitful sleep knowing that I will probably have to go through it all again tonight.  It was very reassuring to see your replies this morning.

Jenny; I would like to see your details, if you don't mind.  I need to form a plan - whatever might work best for me - & stick to it until I see results.  I have a bit of laryngitis right now, so speaking calmly to dd from a distance is probably not really an option, but I could try that in a few days when I'm finished sounding like someone is strangling Minnie Mouse. :wink:

Thanks again,

[Johno & Aurelias Mum]

Hi Libby's mum

Can you 'shh' at the moment?  and have you used pat/shh before?

[Libby's Mom]

I did use the pat/shush when I was first teaching her to fall asleep (at 4 months) & it worked like a charm.  I'm worried that she might find that annoying now, although I do often say "shhh" as part of my "it's ok, you're just going to sleep" speech.

I struggled her into her a.m. nap today.  First we did a little pu/pd, but she pushes me away, so that's kind of tricky (in fact, I almost dropped her!).  When she wasn't screaming anymore I tried staying in the room without eye contact etc., but she just rolled around & played & tried to get me to look at her.  Then I removed the mobile (which she tends to play with) & gently suggested with both hands that she stay in her sleeping position (on her tummy) with some words of encouragement.  She complained a lot & was very squirmy.  I had to leave both hands on her for quite a while but eventually she did fall asleep.  Looks like I'm pretty much starting over - worse, actually, as she was never this difficult to get to sleep before!

[Aarismom]

Just another idea...have you tried the gradual move out of the room technique? That's the one involving the chair...moving it slowly out of the room every day. I think Tracy describes it in one of her books. It's a popular technique for seperation anxiety, although I admit I haven't had to use it (yet...:roll:).

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[Libby's Mom]

Sonya,

Thanks for your input.  I think this is the technique that Charlotte & I were talking about earlier in the string (pages 245 & 246 of The BW Solves All Your Probs).  I've seen it on TV & it seems to be effective; however, in the book TH says stay out of the baby's line of sight & I don't get that.  What's the point of being in the room if she can't see me?  Also, when I just sit there (no eye contact etc.), she just rolls around cooing & playing.  Took almost 2 hours to get her sleeping the other night.  The cooing & playing seems to stimulate her.  If she were crying, I'd do the pu/pd thing, but she only cries when I go to leave.  I really don't know what to do with her when she's rolling around playing.  Took 50 minutes to go to sleep last night & that was with me touching her back & not letting her roam.  I'm still trying new things, so any other ideas/details would be great if you have them!

Thanks again,
(about to go try the p.m. nap - see how long that takes!)

[Beata]

HI ladies - Libby's mom, I fee for you. Usually I have to hold dd down gently to get her to just stay down  :oops:

Does your dd wake at night, or is that first time getting to be the only problem you have?

I am wondering about the gradual withdrawal method myself...my dd will stay down when she's calm, but if I try to leave the room , she stands up. I am getting frustrated because she'll be passing out as I put her down, I wait a moment, and then I try to sneak out, but she seems to have a compulsion ti stand. I go back put her down, and either have a hand on her or shush, or just stand there until she drifts, then I try to leave before her eyes are closed. Sometimes it work other times, she's up like a rollie pollie.

I feel that although she is settling easier in general, that I have become her prop.

Also since I am the only one to put her to bed, she will not settle when dh tries to put her down. Ugh.

I now have dh saying that maybe she should CIO at night!  :shock:

Beata

[Johno & Aurelias Mum]

Hi

I found that I had to use a mixture of techniques.  I would start by doing the wind down routine and put DS in his bed, tuck him in and say 'good night, sleep tight, love you'.  At this stage if he was all giggly I would turn and go.  Stand outside his door for 10 seconds while he got himself up and started crying.  Then I would go back in, lie him down and say the same thing.  So, I wasn't doing PU/PD, it was just doing PD (because he didn't actually want to be held so PU was not successful).  If he was still giggling, I would do the same.  I kept doing this until when I went back in he would make an effort to sleep.  By that I mean sucking his paci, droopy eyes etc. 

Then I would stay with him with my hand quite heavily on his shoulder (he sleeps on his side) then I would do the shh noise for the pat shh technique.  Still shhing, I would ever so gently remove my hand and stay hanging over the side of the cot, then I would stand up next to the cot, then take one step away.  Still shhing and he's still awake but sleepy at this stage.  The plan is to move right outside the door.  If they start getting up, go back and either start again if its too much or go back one step and shh loudly.

I would then go outside the door, still shhing and then gradually get quieter and quieter.

The eye contact thing I think varies from child to child but DS certainly stimulated himself more trying to get my attention so I would always look at him at this age with a straight face that means business and just repeat my words.

The other thing you have to remember is that different things suit different ages.  This technique is not what I did when he was 5 months, and there are certain changes to it now he's 19 months.  I use a lot more verbal communication with him now because he understands exactly what I'm saying and he understands consequences better.

I hope this all helps.

[Libby's Mom]

Beata - This is the first real problem I've had.  Libby has been sleeping 12 hour nights since 4 months, when I first read THE BOOK & put her on EASY.  I used the pat/shhh, & a bit of pu/pd here & there, but in general, it was pretty easy.  Previous to this setback, I would do our sleep routine, tuck her in with my blahblahblah & leave the room.  She would make some general complaints, maybe talk to herself a bit, & fall asleep.  This is a huge step backward for her.

The gradual withdrawl sounds like it might work for you if you do the pu/pd to get her to stay down.  On p. 244 & 245 of The BW Solves All Your Problems (known around here as THE BIBLE), TH describes a pu/pd method for babies that stand up when you put them back down.  I can describe it for you if you don't have THE BIBLE.  After a while you only have to do the pd part as she'll get tired of standing & just sit up.  When she gets to the stays down part, you should be able to just stand there till she's asleep & then on later nights stand further away till one night you're out the door!  Sounds easy, eh?  I'm sure it's actually a lot of work, but might be worth a go vs. cio.

Thankfully, Libby's not standing yet, but she rolls around a lot & bobs her head up to see me.  I can't very well do the pu/pd if she's not crying, can I?  She only cries if I'm not there.  When I'm there, she rolls around & plays... for hours!  Even if I stay where she can't see me very well.

[Johno & Aurelias Mum]

Libby's Mum

What does the rest of your day look like, do you think Libby's ready for a change in routine which means she's not tired enough at bedtime and that's why she can chat to herself for hours?

[Libby's Mom]

Jenny - this sounds pretty good.  It sounds similar to what I have been doing, only right now I have to leave my hand on her till she's asleep & then back out (it's a very creaky floor, too!) & not so much shhhing.  I will see if I can make some version of this work tonight.  I am still working on A PLAN so that I can be consistent at every sleep time.

Thanks for the details,

[Libby's Mom]

Regarding the rest of her day (I seem to be off by one posting here...)

She's very tired when I put her down for the night - calm, rubbing eyes, sometimes yawning during bedtime stories - if I force her to sleep (put both hands on her,  keep her from roaming, etc., she sometimes settles nicely, but after a breather, starts all over again.  Anyway, here's what our day is usually like:
6:30 - she usually wakes, complains a bit, my rule is we don't get up till 7:00
7:00 - up & bf, active play
8:15 - breakfast, short calm play (now she eats with fingers, takes a long time to eat! not so much time for play)
9:15/9:30 - sleep routine (books, lullabies, etc.) & nap
11:00/11:15 - wake & bf, active play
12:15/12:30 - lunch, short calm play
1:30/2:00 - sleep routine & nap
3:00/3:15 - wake & bf, active play
5:00 - dinner
6:15 - bath & sleep routine
7:00 - should be sleeping like an angel!!!
7:00 to 9:00 - exasperate Mama by rolling around & playing till Mama LOSES IT!!!

Actually, it's 3:15 now & I have to go wake her.  See, often she would keep sleeping if I let her, but I have to wake her or the bf is too close to a meal & she won't be hungry.  The fact that I have to wake her says to me that she's not getting too much sleep.  Am I wrong?

[Libby's Mom]

Actually, come to think of it, she sometimes sleeps 2:00 till 4:00 in the p.m., then dinner is around 5:15 or 5:30, & she generally goes into bath & bed routine directly afterward.  Could that be a problem?

Also, I'm low on calm ways for her to play.  Even if I just give her a plain toy (no noise, fancy colours, or moving parts), she still tends to wave her arms & kick her feet & shriek a bit - I try to avoid this kind of wind up before sleep, but I'm finding that increasingly difficult to do.  Any ideas there?  Books are out of the questions, as we go through all her books at least once in a day as part of the pre-sleep (naps & bedtime).

[Libby's Mom]

LOOK AT ME!!!  LOOK AT ME!!!

Baby is asleep already!!!  I was prepared to pull out all the tricks, per the advice you all had been giving me & I put dd down, went for the door, one cry at me as I was going through the door, I closed it behind me & took my clunky shoes off preparing to go back in quietly and...

NOTHING!

A bit of chatter, some mantra cries & she's asleep in less than 5 minutes!  WHOO-HOO!!!

Okokokok... shouldn't get too excited, it's probably just a "one-of" thing, right?  She was really tired, we did a verrrrry sllllowww paced wind down, & I worked hard today instilling her trust on naps 1 & 2 (sigh).  Even if it's just a fluke...

I get to eat supper before 10:00 tonight - YAY!!!

I still have a quasi plan in place to ween dd off falling a sleep under my hand & slowly making it out the door - sort of a combo platter of the techniques you've described - as I'm sure I'll need it tomorrow.  At least I'm feeling some confidence now - there IS hope!

Could still use some suggestions on what to do for calm play.  Anyone?

Thank you, All

[Beata]

I use a lot more verbal communication with him now because he understands exactly what I'm saying and he understands consequences better.

Johnosmom - I have to chuckle...just wondering what ARE the consequences in the doesn't want to sleep situation?

Thanks for the advice! I do exactly what you do with putting her down, leaving the room, and she stands, etc. Then eventually just a hand ... but it's still at the point when I back away, she goes to get up. Sometimes I let her get up, others I stop her and put her back down.

Libby's Mom - I don't have that book, so if you have a few minutes (LOL)  :lol: could you give me the basics. Thanks! You can pm me.

Maybe your lo doesn't get enough awake time between the second nap and bed? It's tough though because I for one enjoy eary to bed, early to rise, but you might start messing with her wake up time if you move bedtime later. I don't know if she would be used to this, but I feed dd dinner, then I let her play for a good while in her room (where there are many toys and she grabs what she wants) then her bedtime routine, starting with bath. I find that no matter how she plays (high energy or not) the bath cues her into calming down immediately. On that note...what do you have to lose if Libby is still playing in her crib for 2 hours  :wink:

[Libby's Mom]

Beata;

I wouldn't mind the playing at bedtime if I didn't have to be present for it... she cries if I leave.  EXCEPT TONIGHT!  (See my previous post.)

I will definately pm you, but maybe tomorrow, as tonight I get to eat my dinner while it's still hot!!  YAY!

Thanks,

[Paulsmama]

Calm play -- we have "quiet time" before 9.5 mo DS's bath at the time his catnap used to happen.  We lie on a bed with the lights turned low, soothing music playing (lullabies from around the world), and I let him explore one household object at a time.  Eyeglass case, remote control with no batteries, blood pressure monitor and case, mesh bag with plastic toggle, water bottle with a little bit of water in it, etc.  He'll lie on his back for a few minutes checking out each one and I can usually get 20-25 min of rest time for him this way.  If he starts getting fussy we go read a book -- luckily we got a bunch of new ones for Christmas!