What would you do tonight?

[Carmela's Mom]

So waht do I do now???

Last night Carmela slept 5-6 hours.  She was up playing ALL night.  Today she went to bed at 12:15 because she coudln't stay awake anymore and slept for 1.5 hours.  She woke up at 1:45 and it's now 3:00 and already she's tired.  My husband just took her to the store to get her out a bit to give me a break. 

So now I know she's overtired (we already said we'll put her in at 6:30 but last night she went in at 7:00 and it did nothing)  and I know she's going to be up again tonight.  How do I break this cycle?  Do I send DH in tonight (that works like 25% of the time) or do I just ignore her? 

This is a vicious cycle and I have no clue how to break it.  I need major advice here.  I'm just about 19 weeks pregnant and TIRED.  I can't live with 3 hours sleep a night!

[Wilsmon]

So the blood work from the dr didn't show anything?  She is not waking up screaming or crying right? She just plays the whole time?

[Carmela's Mom]

No the blood work didn't show anything.  We are taking away all lactose products for one week to see if we see any difference (which I guarantee not) then we are doing an EEG to check her brain waves for seizures.....

As of right now the doc feels she has chronic clinical insomnia, which IMO is nothing more than "nothing is wrong with her"........ of course the doc didn't say that BUT!

Yes you are correct.  She does not cry at all.  She gets up and then you hear her talking, singing, playing.  After about 2 to 3 hours SOMETIMES she'll whimper as she starts to fall back asleep but that is rare.  The thing is if we don't go in we are GUARANTEED 2, 3 sometimes even 4 hours of playing (and she's loud enough that we can hear her and we are up during it), but once in a blue moon if my husband goes in that quiets her down and she'll settle to sleep.  He just goes in and says "it is nighttime.  Go to sleep"  ... and walks out.  We NEVER stay with her until she's asleep and never spend more than 2 minutes in there.

[Wilsmon]

Well, I was going to suggest that maybe if you just didn't go in that she would get tired of it after a few nights and quit.  Maybe if you guys put some white noise in your room so at least you could sleep.  I would also suggest if you did this to make sure she is secure in her room, maybe get a crib tent.   Not a good long term solution but maybe you could get caught up.

It is so unusual that she doesn't cry - just plays.  I have to get back to work now but I will be thinking about this and read some of the other sleep books I have to see if they offer any suggestions.

Last resort - but have you ever thought about giving her Benedryl or something to make her tired just for awhile and see if you can change the sleep pattern?  It could be that she is just in a viscious cyle of not enough sleep.

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

I don't know the history of your situation, but I've got a 2.5yr old who's always had a sleep issue of some sort (but nothing as extreme as what you're talking about).  I have recently brought a book on how to deal with sleep disturbances, insomnia, resetting the circadian rhythms etc in both adults and children.  It may be worth your while hunting a good sleep book down to get some other ideas outside of the BW philosophy to help you (I have also BWed right from the start and have not done any accidental parenting).  The book I have focuses on natural ways to combat it (I use homeopathy and that is the focus of this particular book, also covers foods to avoid and what ones to eat prior to sleep - it's called The Complete Guide to Natural Sleep by Dian Dincin Buchman, PhD.  There are so many books out there, so even if homeopathy doesn't interest you, I'm sure there will be others that will give some practical solutions and ways on resetting the clock.

Edited to add: I'm not suggesting another book with sleep training programmes, but a book that looks beyond just getting your child to sleep kwim?

HTH

[Carmela's Mom]

Thanks so much girls.  I love hearing about others in my situation (not that I wish it upon ANYONE but knowing I'm not alone helps!)

We've been dealing with this since Carmela's been born.  The really strange part is that she will do this for about a month or two, then stop for a week or two and then start again.  We do nothing different.  The last time she did this was when we didn't go in at all, and it went on for two months!  That is why this time I started sending in my husband. 

I'm always looking for a good book so thanks so much for the recommendation.  A book on insomnia is definitely what I need!  Thanks!

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

I also get a few good weeks or maybe a month at a stretch out of my son for no particular reason with no changes, I know how frustrating it is!  I have recently had 4 nights of sleep throughs and then last night he was up screaming 3 times again.

Definitely worth a look.  I finally have my 9mth old sleeping through the night and instead still have a 2.5yr old waking up - I don't think I've slept a whole nights sleep for 2yrs!  Because things aren't too consistent I never my own sleep rhythms sorted so still end up waking at odd hours...one day, one day.... :wink:

[jessica and emilys mummy]

Right.I'm going to start from scratch,can you tell me exactly what your whole days routine is and exactly what you do when you put her to bed.I'd like times as well if poss.
I'm sorry if this is a bit of a hassle,but I think it would really help me.

[Wilsmon]

O.K I am going to ask another dumb question.  I was reading in some of my other sleep books and there was nothing about insomnia for infants or toddlers, but it did have some guidelines for adults.  The first suggetion was a consistent bedtime but also a consistent wakeup time.  I am wondering if you get your dd up at the same time everyday?  I know when they have been up all night it is tempting to let them sleep in in the morning, but, with our ds we began waking him up at the same time every morning regardless of the night he had.  Sounds mean but when we started doing this is when he really began sleeping through the night more consistently.  We also make a big deal about the wake up - lights on, shouting "Good Morning" etc.

Another thing, I noticed you were doing some testing or elimination for allergies.  We had some friends that had a child you had trouble with sleep.  They finally contacted this organization and had some testing done.  They found out he was allergic to 52 different things!  This company will also do cosultations of your results.

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com

You send for a kit and then send back a blood sample and then they test for hundreds of allergies.

Hope some of this helps!

[Carmela's Mom]

Im 19 weeks pregnant so I am petrified what its going to be like with two and her!  I have 5 months to figure it out  

Ok first our schedule.

We wake her up by 7:30 if she's not awake by then.  Most days she's up by 6-7 though.

So say 6-7 wake up -- play in crib until 7:30 (she's fine with this obviously)
7:45 - breakfast and play time with mommy a little
8:30 get dressed, brush teeth, Mama shower and she watches a little Elmo
9:00 playdates, errands, gym etc.
9:30 or 10:00 snack
11:00-11:30 home...play with dog while I get lunch ready
11:45 lunch
12:00 - ready stories with Mom, clean up, quiet play
12:30 bring upstairs brush teeth, read two stories, sing two songs, quick cuddle
12:45 nap (usually 1.5 to 1 hours and 45 mins)
2:30 out of crib
3:00 snack
3:30 outside play if weather permits
5:00 a little tv while I prepare dinner
5:30 dinner
6:00 bath
6:20 (used to be 6:30) downstairs, read books, clean up, more quiet time, snack
7:00 (this has been pushed to 6:45 the past two nights) brush teeth, read two stories, sing two songs, quick cuddle
7:00 in bed

Also with nap time.  We had it earlier and she just wouldn't fall asleep so we were dealing with either missed naps or a nap time of 2 p.m.  TOO LATE!  We found putting her in at 12:45 helped her go to sleep within 5 minutes!  YAY!

Bedtime was 7:30 and we pushed it up the past two nights to 7 p.m.  It hasn't helped any except that instead of waking at 6:30 she wakes at 6:15.  But still waking in the night.  When she sleeps through with no wakings she was doing 7:30 to 7:00!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Heaven..


Her allergies all came back negative.

[Carmela's Mom]

Also Carmela seems to play for 30 minutes when she goes in her crib - is that a sign of overtiredness?

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

How old is she?

So she's getting 5-6hrs at night and 1.5hrs during the day?

Without looking at specifics on when she sleeps etc, what would be her average "daily total" of sleep (including nights).  So even on nights where she might sleep longer but have more awake times, if you averaged out her daily total for the last 6mths, how many hours would you say she's having?

When you put her down for naps and bedtime is she completely awake - what happends directly before you lie her down for sleep (are you rocking or have any other sort of association going on), sorry if you've covered all of this before in other posts.  But like Sarah has suggested, maybe look at it afresh.  (Sarah, I hope you don't mind me butting in here?).

[Carmela's Mom]

Before bed and nap we always have quiet play downstairs (read books together)....then we say night night to daddy (or mommy if DH is putting her in).  Then we go upstairs and brush teeth, go in the room and we change her diaper, we go on the rocking chair...read two more books, sing two songs to her and cuddle for probably 2 minutes or so.  She's usually sleepy by then (yawning, rubbing eyes) and then we put her in.  She is never asleep and never totally drowsy but sleepy. 

She's 20 months old. 

The last six months.  We go through this phase for month or two and then it stops for a week or two.  So when she's not sleeping, she gets about 8 hours of sleep at night (broken up) and 1.5 hour nap.  When she is sleeping she gets 11 hours at night and 1.5-2 hour nap.  the difference in her personality, attention, ability to learn is AMAZING.  At her 18 month doctor visit, I remember telling the doctor she didn't even know 10 words.  This was during a HORRIBLE sleep period.  Then she slept for two weeks and now she's saying about 60 words!  In those two weeks she learned so much because she was fresh and awake.  It was truly amazing.  Now we've been back at this no sleep thing for two weeks and funny...she's still saying the words she knows, but hasn't learned a new word in the past 10 days or so...it catches up to her quick.

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

OK, how else is she as far as eating goes (I know your doing allergy testing and stuff), but she poops normally, growing heightwise and gaining weight obviously otherwise your doc would have pointed something out.  Has she been tested for anaemia (iron levels)?  That can cause awful night disturbances (is opposite in children apparently) - so rather than being lethargic as we normally think of low iron, it has a hyper affect on kids. 

I know what you mean by behaviour and learning being affected, I notice that too.  With us, when Nathan is getting over his sleep deprivation he goes from a daily total of 9hrs (often just the night sleep - with multiple wakings - and no nap), to 11hrs at night and a 2hr nap - go figure?  :roll:

I'm off to get a homeopathic remedy now for Nathan to help with his night terrors/screaming/sleeptalking/walking...

[Carmela's Mom]

She does suffer from constipation but I *think* we have it under control with adding Metamucil to her diet.  She goes every other day and she isn't trying to go constantly like before.  She is a big girl (29 lbs at 18 months) but so was my DH.  She is growing great.  As for eating, she was ALWAYS a healthy eater.  LOVED her veggies to the point where I asked the doc if it was normal that she wouldn't eat anything but veggies....boy do I miss those days because in the past few weeks I can't get her to eat any of it!  My ped promises me that is normal ... that they will find a favorite food from time to time and change constantly.  But all in all she's a good eater.

i just don't get these kids.  Don't they realize how much happier they are when tehy just sleep???

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Well your routine looks pretty normal to me and nothing jumps out. 

Maybe Sarah will spot something in there. 

Just a thought, but if she's playing in her bed for 30mins before falling asleep I don't think that's necessarily overtiredness, maybe she just likes the quiet winddown on her own.  If this is the case, can you get her into bed a half hour sooner again, so the fall asleep time is closer to where you want it? Therefore trying to buy an extra half hour at the start of the night before that early wake up.  I know once I can get a good sleep into Nathan the whole lot improves - later wake ups start to happen, longer naps etc - it's just being able to get on top of it enough (which you know already  :wink: ). 

Is her afternoon pretty relaxed leading up to bedtime?  What types of foods do you offer her for dinner?  How close is dinner to bedtime (most of my reading suggests a good 2-3hrs to have dinner completed before sleep)?

[Carmela's Mom]

Dinner is completed by 5:45 and bedtime is 7:30...lately more like 7 though.  Having dinner any earlier isn't really good for us though because DH works until we start. 

Thanks so much for everyone's help.  I really am looking at each reply and trying to take these things into consideration!

[Wilsmon]

Wondered if you have ever considered a "reward" system for the nights she does sleep good.  A sticker board that after so many she gets a reward.  Maybe she is too young still.  I am trying to remember what my daughter was like at that age - she is 5 now and ds is only 11 mo.

Just another suggestion to throw out there.

Really not sure what else to suggest.

[Carmela's Mom]

No she's a little too young.  She would never understand.  I think it's a great and maybe in another year.  Thanks.

Last night she slept from 7:15 to 10:30...woke up briefly.  Went back to sleep and was up from 12 a.m. to 3:00 a.m.  At 3, I don't even kno wif she went to sleep!  We finally turned on our tv pretty loud so we couldn't hear her.  At 7:00 I woke up and she's in there still making the same noises so I'm figuring she fell asleep at some point or other, but I really have no clue.

[Carmela's Mom]

I don't know if its the "right" thing to do but it's 8:30 and I just put CArmela back in her crib to see if she'll go back to sleep.  She is so damn tired.  Rubbing her eyes and being a bit nasty.  She's actually crying right now so I doubt she'll fall asleep but I'm at wits end here and don't know how to break this cycle.

[Wilsmon]

How many different sleep specialists did you try to contact?  I looked in our phone book and one of the hospitals has a sleep clinic.  Just wondering if you considered contacting your hospital to see if they could help?

[Carmela's Mom]

I called two local hosopitals and both need referrals from my pediatrician and my ped said she didn't think they'd take Carmela serious before she turned two so she said to wait a few months. I'm actually changing pediatricians I think for a completely different reason so I'm going to see what the new one says.

I forgot to add...last night we sent DH in when she was up.  She didn't listen to him either (made me feel a bit better hehe)...so tonight we are opting for the ignore method.  We won't go in before 7 a.m. unless she's crying a real real cry.

[sacmommy]

Jackie, I wish I could help you. I just can't imagine how tired and frustrated you must be, and pregnant on top of it! My kids don't have phases like Carmela, but every once in awhile one of them will wake at night and if it's longer than 45 minutes or so I start getting worried ... so I've gone for the sleepy medicine which someone suggested. What if you tried Benadryl or some equivalent for 1-3 nights to see if it just got her back on track? I've lent out my other favorite sleep book but when I get it back this week I'll check if there's any other hints on what to do in this situation.

Hope your night goes better. Maybe you and your husband should take turns so one of you gets a good night sleep every other night? One can wear earplugs, then the other? You guys need some rest. LOL.

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Hi Carmela's mom.  Could I please ask what the ignore method is?  I assumed from your post that she wakes at 3am and wants to be up for the day? Does she cry or call out for you in the night or happily play in bed? When ever I've needed to help my ds sort out his night time issues I've taken the BW way which is responding to him to get him through the phase that he's going through.  It may seem that it doesn't work or taking forever, but what I've usually found is that more wakings during the night can often be attributed to "needing" me more during the daytime - so it's like he's transferred his need to get the attention some other way - does that make sense?  Just something to think about anyway.   

What I would suggest is going right back to basics with her.  Have a good bedtime routine.  It sounds like she goes to bed happily which is GREAT! But EVERY time she calls out for you during the night (even if she wants to be awake at that time), respond immediately, don't try and wait for her to go quiet, because I think if there's a need (even if you don't consider it a need), she's not going to go quiet, if she does it's more going to be giving up but her need is still unfulfilled.  Keep things low key, no lights on, no talking to her and leave the room, if she calls out, go straight back in and repeat.  This can be a long process, but if her trust has been broken at any point, you will need to get past that before she will feel comfortable sleeping through.  This could take quite a few weeks and you will need to be absolutely consistent in your response to her to gain back her trust to know that you will go to her if she needs you. I'm not saying her trust has been broken as I don't know your situation, but just something else to consider. 

If you have the BW book there is a plan on gently removing yourself from the room (ie sleeping on the floor next to her to get her back to sleep).  Personally I think the key is GETTING her back to sleep during the night - don't worry too much about how at this point.  You want her to be well rested and on track with napping during the day and around 11hrs at night.  Once you've got that going then you can remove yourself from the picture, it will be tough time, but you need to be consistent with it.  Please don't try the CIO method which could end up damaging the situation further.

HTH

[CanadianMom]

Sending you ((((((((sleep vibes)))))))))).
My oldest ds did not sleep through the night until he was 18 mos.  We tried everything with him.  On the advice of my pediatrician (I was also pregnant at the time) I gave him Benadryl every night for 3 weeks, and then weaned him off it decreasing the dose for 1 week, and he has slept through the night ever since ( wakes if he has to pee and then goes back to bed).  I am not advising this for every sleep issue, however, it seems to me that you have tried other conventional methods with no success.  When your this tired sometimes anything is worth a try.

Good luck.
Lisa

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

The only thing I would caution about using Benadryl that way (in case anyone wants to give it a go!) is that in some babies, it has the opposite effect.  It may make them sleepy at first, and even sleep better for the first few nights, but in some kids, after that it actually gets them wired.  This happened with a friend of mine (who's a nurse) as well as with dd when she had a cold and we used it.  She would be fine the first night, then the next, she'd be up for 3 or 4 hrs in the wee hours, wanting to play and NOTHING would get her back to sleep!  Just my 2 cents...

[Diego's Mama]

Have you considered something like sleep apnea?  You would need to take her to a pediatric sleep clinic if you feel there may be a real sleep issue.  From what I've read, they're more common than you may think.  Does she sleep with her mouth open?

My 18monther has begun with having difficulty settling down for naps.  I place him on his side, against the crib rails, and hold him in place.  At first he squirmed (of course) and screamed (of course), but I quietly kept telling him, "I love you, it's just sleep time, lay down and go to sleep." When he stopped squirming and began settling I'd stop the verbal cue, but kept my hands on him.  Slowly he'd fall asleep and after he was clearly asleep I'd gradually and slowly lift my hands.  He needed me to help him settle down as he couldn't settle himself.  This is a modified form of pu/pd.

I really have suspicion of a sleep problem though -- it's very uncommon for a baby to sleep such a small amount at night. I'd seriously look into a sleep clinic and would caution you against using any medication unless under the supervision of your pediatrician.

[Carmela's Mom]

The BW clearly does not work because my daughter does not need us.  She is waking to play and only play.  She wakes anywhere from 10 p.m. to about 2 p.m. and will play for several hours.  I am a SAHM and spend a lot of time with her and can't see spending more or else I'd be with her 24/7!!!!!!!!!!

Tonight we went to my sister's and I kind of threw the entire routine out the window on purpose. It's not working for the past few months so I figured what the hell. She stayed up until 8 p.m. when she fell asleep on the way home.  I am praying that maybe that will throw off her routine of waking.  We'll see

Thanks so much for all the advice. You don't know how much I appreciate it.  I'm dying to try the Benadryl but I am so afraid that like someone else mentioned, it would work great the first night and then BAM she'd get wired (it happens with cold meds).....

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

The BW clearly does not work because my daughter does not need us.  She is waking to play and only play.  She wakes anywhere from 10 p.m. to about 2 p.m. and will play for several hours.  I am a SAHM and spend a lot of time with her and can't see spending more or else I'd be with her 24/7!!!!!!!!!

I think this is why I did my original post suggesting that other reasons may be the cause of the problem. 

I too am a SAHM, but I know I get too busy to really play and give him my undivided attention for decent chunks of time sometimes, so I guess I was coming from my experience, not saying that it was the case for you just something to consider. 

Are you able to get a 2nd paediatrician opinion to get a referral?  (sorry I have no idea how the system works over there so not sure if that suggestion is helpful).

All the best.

[Ami ~ 3 girls' mom]

I'm off to get a homeopathic remedy now for Nathan to help with his night terrors/screaming/sleeptalking/walking...

Calms Forte?  We use 300 mcg melatonin a night here.  Ashlyn wakes up for hours at a time too, but she's screaming and not playing.   :?

[Nikki~Nathan&Danielle]

Ah Melatonin, I read about that in my book, isn't that the pill form of the natural sleep chemical that the body produces? 

The remedy I chose for Nathan was a tissue salt called Kali Phos which is what his symptoms indicated.  As a result we just had one wake up last night which wasn't a screaming incident, just a normal wake up.  Calms Forte may have the the kali phos in it.

[Carmela's Mom]

Can you girls tell me what your talking about with this things?  I'm interested in non-medicated, homeopathic ways.  Do you have to get them prescribed by a ped?

[Carmela's Mom]

Have either of you tried or heard of Serenite, Jr.?  I am thinking of purchasing this for Carmela...here's teh site
http://www.nativeremedies.com/serenite_for_sleep_insomnia.shtml

[Ami ~ 3 girls' mom]

Can you girls tell me what your talking about with this things?  I'm interested in non-medicated, homeopathic ways.  Do you have to get them prescribed by a ped?

Any health food store.    That Serenite looks perfect!

[Wilsmon]

I say try the homeopathic remedies what can it hurt?  Also, there was a thread under medical about humidifiers.  You might want to read that b/c there is a humidifier that alot of BW moms have purchase where you put oils in it.  One mom stated she put lavender in and I think that is suppose to help with sleep.

[Carmela's Mom]

I am NOT a humidifier fan.  Unless mine is crap?  I try to run it when she has a cold and it does nothing!!!!!!!!

I have to say last night I heard her at 11:30 and she cried, then I heard her talk and I don't know if she stopped until 6 or if DH and I were both so tired but we both didn't hear her the rest of the night.  Granted we have noise on in OUR room and in her room but I did hear the cry so that made me happy that I can hear her if its something real important

[imsmum]

I responded to one of your previous posts as my 17 mos. dd was having the same problem which seemed to come on shortly after trying to shift her from 2 naps to one.  She also did this when shifting from 3 naps to 2 when she was around 10 mos.  I've started using the same method now as went eventually worked then and have seen some improvement.
WHen this first started at 10 monthe we put Margot down early--sometimes very early.  at that time she would normally go to bed at 7 and then we started pushing her bedtime back to 6 or even earlier.  That got rid of the night waking and she was able to sleep through but only until 5 am!  Then we started pushing back her morning nap focussing not so much on the hours from wake up to nap but from bedtime to naptime ie.that it be close to 14 hours.   that cured the problem of early wakeups  until we went to one nap.  Initially when we transitioned things went better than expected--2 hour nap at 11:30 bed at 7 but then she started waking at 5 in the morning.  We would get her back down but then she would only take a 1.5 hour nap.  Things snowballed from there until we had a schedule much like yours--a 1.5 hour nap and  2-4 hour wakeups in the night :oops:
things are both easier and more difficult now with one nap.  First she went down REALLy late one night--more b/c of some well intentioned intervention on my dh's part--but she slept from 10 until 6 straight.  We put her down at her normal naptime of 12:30 and she slept for 2 hours for the first time in a long time.  Her naps had been going to 1.5 hours which I think is a major contributor to her problem.  we put her to bed at 7 that night (normal time closer to and she slept to 6! The problem was we put her down at her normal nap time that next day and she only slept for 1.5 hours.  7 pm bed that night and up again at 4 but managed to get her back between 5:30 and 6:30.   Sorry for the long post but my point is if my dd sleeps badly she needs the 12:30 nap but if she sleeps well I think I need to put her down later in order to get a 2 hour nap for her since getting less than that seems to cause an overtired state by bedtime and either an early wakeup or night wakings. 
so the two phase approach worked the first time around for us and so far phase 1 of this round is going the same way.  The next time she sleeps through (fingers crossed ) I'll try the later naptime and let you know how it goes.  Sorry for the long post but I hope there something you can take from this approach!

[Carmela's Mom]

I'm confused!  Can you do me a favor?  Can you post both your schedules...say if she wakes up early and if she wakes late?  Thanks