Help!! 8 week old won't nap

[Mrsv4]

DD is 8 weeks old and hasn't taken any daytime naps in the last two days!! (other than 5-10min catnaps).  I don't know what to do.  Today she was awake for 7 hours then I finally got her to sleep for 40min (with me holding her).  Last week I was concerned because she would only nap in her bouncy chair or on me.  Now she wants nothing to do with the chair, and although I could get her to sleep holding her, she just keeps waking up.  She started sleeping through the night (from 10pm-6am) four nights ago, do you think this has something to do with it??  Also, now because she's so overtired it's been 2hours and counting that we've been trying to get her down for the night.  Usually she goes down at night in her crib fairly easily.  We don't know what to do, please help  :cry:

[Meg's Mom]

Hi, i am sorry u and your LO are having sleep troubles.

You say it started the past 2 days??  Can i ask you a few questions to get a better understanding of what is going on:

1) Has anything changed in the past 2 days, sick, feeding, etc?
2) What is your winddown routine like?
3) Can you please post your full routine/sch
4) breast or bottle feed?

Hopefully we can help - so big hugs!

[Mrsv4]

Hi, thanks for the quick reply.  Nothing I can tell has changed in the last two days.  Her feeding is fine(she's breastfed), she hasn't been sick.  Other than starting to sleep through the night, that's the only change I can figure.  Here's our routine/scheudle although it's definately not set in stone.  It flucuates an hour either side from day to day because her naps can range from 30min-2hours:
E-9:30am
A-10am
S-10:30am

E-between 11:30-12 she'll eat again
A-12:30
S-falls asleep between 1-1:30pm

E-between 1:30-2
A-approx. 2:15pm
S-3:30pm

E-4:30-5pm
A-5:30pm
S-6:00

E-7:30pm
A-bath
S-none

E-8:45pm (she started clustering on her own the night before she started sleeping through the night)
A-diaper change
S-9:30-10pm

E-6am
A-change diaper
S-6:45am

So, this is approx. how our day runs.  However, since she hasn't been sleeping most of our activity time has been taken up by me trying to get her to sleep because she slept though the last sleep cycle...and it goes on and on.  As for our winddown routine it's different during the day and evening.  During the day I usally turn down the lights when I see the first yawn, then I cover with her with a blanket(used to swaddle her but read somewhere that baby's shouldn't be swaddled for more than 10hours per 24), sit on the couch and cuddle her until her eyes get heavy.  At this point I used to put her in her bouncy chair (she never took to the crib during the day since she was about 3weeks old) and she'd drift off to sleep. Sometimes we'll use a pacifier, sometimes she refuses it.  In the evening we swaddle her at the first sign of a yawn, bring her into her room with just a night light on.  Turn on her lullabye music, sit in the rocking chair and cuddle her until her eyes get heavy.  Again, we sometimes uses a pacifier.  We lay her down when her eyes get heavy and stay with her for awhile, either shhing her or rubbing her hair (she doesn't like the patting).  If we stay in the room too long she seems to fight going to sleep.  So if she's quiet and content we leave after a few minutes, and only go in if she starts to cry.  Sometimes she squirms in the bed and then drifts off to sleep, sometimes she crys a few times and we have to pick her up and settle her numerous times.  It usually lasts 20-45min until she's really asleep.  Then she sleeps until 6am.  If you can give any suggestions they would be greatly appreciated.

[Taylor's Mommy]

Hi There,

Just curious where you read about not swaddling for more than 10 hours?  I have read many different books and never come across that.  I just wonder because if your lo seems to settle better and be happier with the swaddle, i would definitely use it for naps.  We swaddled Taylor for all naps and bedtime till she was about 4 months old.  When she was awake though we did make sure to unswaddle her and let her have her limbs free during tummy time and such so she could get the exercise.
Finally around 12 weeks when she started to find her fingers we did leave her arm out of the swaddle but still swaddled her legs for another month.

Just a thought that might help her settle easier. 

[Mrsv4]

We ordered a miracle blanket and on the instructions it said not to exceed 10hours per 24hours??

[Meg's Mom]

We ordered a miracle blanket and on the instructions it said not to exceed 10hours per 24hours??

I agree w/ Taylor's mommy.  I would go back to swaddling asap.  DC is too young to have control of her arms and the jolts / movements could be effecting naps.

The 10hr info supplied w/ the miracle blanket, is IMO a legal disclaimer since we live in a society that finds any excuse to sue!  As long as you don't leave your LO swaddled ALL day and only swaddle only for sleep, she will be fine.  We swaddled until Megan was 8-9mos, yes that long and we used the miracle blanket at the beginning and at the end when I discovered i could use it w/o the feet in.

Have a look at this thread i found for you regarding the miracle blanket.

http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44880&highlight=miracle+blanket

I would recommend you:
1) keep A times short,

During the day I usually turn down the lights when I see the first yawn

if waiting for first yawn...you could be missing the sleep window.
2) swaddle

sit on the couch and cuddle her until her eyes get heavy

3) take her to a room that you can make dark - very, very dark

I like the sound of your night routine and would use it for naps too, maybe just a bit shorter and adding the tips above.

I hope that helps, let us know how you get on.

[Taylor's Mommy]

First congratulations on getting dd to sleep in her crib!  That is a HUGE accomplishment!

Maybe I should just start putting her down at the 45min mark??

YES!  I definitely would do that.  For Taylor I remember 45 minutes being the magic number at this age.  She could not stay awake any longer than 1 hour, so usually at 40 minutes of A time we would start the winddown and have her asleep (hopefully!  :roll: ) within 1 hour.

For us the road to independent sleep was a lot longer than 3 days.  I think the 3 day rule in Tracy's book refers a lot to fixing problems.  The road to teaching young infants to sleep can be a bit longer than taht.  For us, we consistently started using the pat/shush method at 9 weeks of age.  In the beginning it would take 20-30 minutes to get her to sleep that way.  As time went on we started gradually weaning her from that and it was taking about 5 minutes to get her to sleep with a little bit of patting.

After about 4 weeks when she turned 13 weeks old, pat/shush was not working at all!  She was screaming bloody murder at all nap and bed times.  We then started PU/PD (only to be used on infants that are at least 3 months old).  We started on a Friday, and by Monday she was going to sleep independently.

The thing to keep in mind is that for most young infants under 3 months old, they have no abilitly to self soothe, so learning to fall asleep independently is in a way impossible (except for angel babies!  :lol: ).  That is what pat/shush is for.  It helps them fall asleep from an awake state in their crib, with the pat/shush providing the soothing.  After 3 months they start to develop self soothing abilities (such as sucking on fingers), so the goal of getting them to fall asleep on their own is more realistic.

HTH!

[Mrsv4]

Good news to report!!    We've started getting DD into her windown routine after she's been awake about 45min.  We swaddle her, turn down the lights, turn on her lullabye CD, sit with her in our rocking chair until her eyes get heavy then lay her in her crib and leave.  She squirms for a few minutes then drifts off to sleep!!!  .  It's amazing!!  However, if we miss that window (which is easy to do depending on how long it takes her to eat, change her diaper, have a bath) than she can't seem to settle herself to beable to drift off to sleep on her own.   But we're doing the best we can to get her there on time.  Once she gets to sleep though, she only sleeps for about 30-40min, and it's nearly impossible to get her back to sleep.  Any tips??  I think if we could extend her naps to 1hour 30min, she'd be able to stay awake at least 1hour 15min. 
For the first 4-5weeks after she was born she ate, easily stayed awake 1hour 15min-1hour 30min.  Then had a nap of 1hour 30min-2hours.  She was never overtired, or fussy (only when hungry, or gassy).  Then we got way off track due to a number of reasons, and we're having a hard time getting back on.  So, any suggestions on how to keep her asleep longer would be greatly appreciated.  Then we can get back to some play time, since now she's too tired.

[Meg's Mom]

excellent news!!

and it's nearly impossible to get her back to sleep

what have you tried?  please give me as much detail as possible?

also i think that 1.15hr - 1.30 of A time is too much to expect at this age.

[Mrsv4]

Well, we've tried the schh/pat thing (only for 3days though) and it rarely calmed her so we'd have to keep picking her up and putting her down (which made her more upset).  The few times it would calm she'd wake up soon as we stopped patting and schhing (we gradually slowed it down then stopped) and cry.  Even if we did it for 30min straight, she'd wake right up. 
We've also tried getting in there before she wakes up to give her her soother or help stop the 'jolt'.  But then she again still wakes right up.  What we've now been doing is sitting with her for a few minutes in our chair (like we do in the winddown routine).  Then try to lay her down again.  She's usually fine when we sit with her, she'll start to doze, but then wakes right up when we lay her down and won't settle herself.  We do this until it's time to feed   :? but by then she's overtired.  So we feed her, change her diaper then right back to bed, and the whole process repeats itself. 
Just a clarification, her activity time isn't 1hour 15min.  That's the whole lenght of time she's awake (eating and A time).  Her activity time is probably about 45min of that time.  Is that too long???

[nathansmum]

Hi!
I have a similar problem with my 6 week old Nathan! And I don't know what to do with him anymore. I'm exhausted!

I'm sure glad I'm not the only one! and can't wait to see what suggestions you get.

[Meg's Mom]

Just a clarification, her activity time isn't 1hour 15min. That's the whole length of time she's awake (eating and A time). Her activity time is probably about 45min of that time. Is that too long???

Yes, I think that 1.15hr of total awake between naps is too long.  Start your timer as soon as she wakes in the am and in 45min feed, change, have low key activity and then when timer goes off, start nap wind down routine.  At the 1 hr mark she should be asleep.  Some LOs get tired in the blink of an eye and the 30min naps could be caused by her being overtired.  Again, if she is yawning...then you are probably too late in putting her down.

As for extending naps, i would stick w/ shh/pat or pat or just shh...you will need to figure out which work best as not all LOs like the same thing.  I would it for 20min...if no luck, then get her up and start the routine over again.

What we've now been doing is sitting with her for a few minutes in our chair (like we do in the winddown routine). Then try to lay her down again. She's usually fine when we sit with her, she'll start to doze, but then wakes right up when we lay her down

.  I would stay away from this as it rarely works, what happens is she starts to fall asleep...she dozes off - she is in a light sleep.  Then you put her down and she wakes right up!  Unless you hold her for the full 20min until she gets into a deep sleep, she will always wake when you put her down. 

and won't settle herself

  You are making great progress!  She can nap in her crib now, she is settling for her naps - the only hiccup is getting her to stay asleep, i really think you should focus on a shorter routine and see what results you get. 

Hang in there, it does get better!  Please keep us posted on your progress  :wink:

[nathansmum]

in 45min feed, change, have low key activity and then when timer goes off, start nap wind down routine.  At the 1 hr mark she should be asleep.  Some LOs get tired in the blink of an eye and the 30min naps could be caused by her being overtired.  Again, if she is yawning...then you are probably too late in putting her down.

My LO yawn's while feeding... How can I make sure he gets a good feed and still gets to bed in good time???


As for extending naps to more than 30 minutes. I read in the nap forum to try going in a little before they wake to help them transition into yet another sleep cycle. I have tried it since I read it yesterday and it worked great!

[Meg's Mom]

nathan's mom, excellent job on using the awake to sleep method, it is a hard one but it sounds like you craked it.

To answer your question better, can you give me your lo's general routine/schedule for the day. Also try to include any wind-down that you use, and any other information that you think is pertinent, eg bf or bottle fed, do you swaddle, use a dummy/pacifier, or white noise, etc?

[nathansmum]

Sorry it took so long to reply! (busy days!)

So here is what a typical day looks like (this is january 16 starting at midnight):

Woke at 3:30
E: 3:35 to 4:00 (wonder if he was really hungry)
down around 4:00 and asleep around 4:30
woke at 6:45

E: 6:50 to 7:30 (interrupted by poopy diaper change)
A: looking at me
started winding down around 7:40-45
S: around 8:30

E: 10:00 to 10:30 (interrupted by poopy diaper again!)
A: 10:30 to 10:45 looks at me for a little then lays quietly on swaddle on bed before swaddling him
Down 10:50 asleep by 11:30
Woke at 12:20 (decided to feed since half an hour only before the 3-hour mark)

E: 12:30 to 13:00
A: looks at me
Down: 13:30-45 (hard wind-down and to put to sleep)
S: 14:30
Woke at 15:50

E: 16:00 to 16:25
A: probably looking at me and diaper change
D: 16:40
S: thought he fell asleep by 17:15 went back in 17:30, then 17:50, then 18:10 by which time I stayed 15 min.
Woke at: 19:00

E: 19:05 to 19:30
A: probably none since hard nap before...
S: Hard to settle and wind-down, finally fell asleep by 21:00
Woke at 23:15 (either by himself or me to dream feed, I can't recall)

E: 23:20 to 23:40
D: 23:42
went back in at 20 after midnight to pat and stayed in 20 min. to make sure he was asleep!

So this is pretty typical although sometimes there are more hard to settle nap times, or he wakes after anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes.

I exclusively breastfeed Nathan (with a bottle of expressed milk once in a while to give me a break). His feeding times take anywhere from 10-15 minutes to 30 minutes. After that amount of time he usually start to suckle only and deforms and hurts my nipples. Sometimes he will just have one breast and sometimes two (that's either when I want to make sure he's had enough or because he starts bobbing on and off the first one angry that nothing is coming out anymore and not patient enough to wait for a second let-down that sometimes comes after more or less 5min.) Is this o.k? I know Tracy says to only do single side feedings... Sometimes if he is done on the one breast in 10-15 minutes and I try to put him on the other to make sure he is not hungry anymore, he will take it but then end up spitting up most of that extra milk!

I'm very perplex! There are so many questions running through my mind sometimes that I think it will explode!!!
Enough milk, not enough milk!
Hungry, not hungry!
Tired, not tired!
Overstimulated or just tired!
Pain or no pain, or just overstimulated!
HELP!

My wind-down routine for naps and bedtime is as follows:
-Put soft lullaby music on
-sometimes a diaper change if I haven't done it before the music was on
-Swaddle and offer pacifier
-switch soft light off (keeping only soft nightlight on)
-sit in rocking chair (not rocking) quietly (that's usually when he starts fussing and fighting)
-try to calm him with sssh-pat (both or either one) or put him in crib and sssh-pat there depending on what I feel
-sometimes we use a heartbeat or wave sound machine

And the rest is history: it either works, takes a long time to work or both with him waking up later on...
(for bedtime, he will sometimes have a bath, maybe every 2 nights. We don't always give it since we sometimes think it's too much for him after a hard day of bad nap times)

Also, we tried cluster feeding at 5 and 7 or 6 and 8. But that turns out really bad since he is so hard to put down! So we basically spend the hour he should be sleeping putting him down to get him up to feed right after! Do we really need to put him down or could we just do E at 5 then bathe him, then go straight to nursing again after his bath and then straight to bed?

Is there anything I need to change or start doing??? Sometimes I think I put him in bed too soon and that he is fighting me because he isn't ready to go down quite yet. Could that be possible?

Being a mom is soooo not "EASY"!!!

Thanks for taking the time to read me and to help! It will so greatly be appreciated!
marilyn

[Taylor's Mommy]

HI Marilyn,

Being a new mom is very overwhelming, so big HUGS first of all.  You are doing a remarkable job so far and should be very proud of yourself!  I will try to answer most of your questions as best as I can.

First, being that Nathan is so young, I would try to stick with a 45minute-1 hour MAX awake time for the time being.  So if he takes 30 minutes to feed, then literally spend 15 minutes doing a diaper change and walking around the house-very lowkey and keep it simple.  The thing to remember that to a 6 week old staring at you and a diaper change is an activity!    SO that is my first piece of advice.

Is this o.k? I know Tracy says to only do single side feedings

The book is just a guide.  I think you have to do what feels right and comfortable for you and your lo.  The main objective for single side feeding is to make sure the lo reaches the yummy filling hind milk that comes after nursing for 10-15 minutes.  If he seems to have emptied you out, and he still seems hungry, then by all means offer the other breast.

Also, we tried cluster feeding at 5 and 7 or 6 and 8. But that turns out really bad since he is so hard to put down! So we basically spend the hour he should be sleeping putting him down to get him up to feed right after! Do we really need to put him down or could we just do E at 5 then bathe him, then go straight to nursing again after his bath and then straight to bed?

Of course!  Again, do what feels right for you and your lo.  We really only did cluster feeding during growth spurts (6 weeks, 12 weeks).  The rest of the time the DF was enough to help her get through the night.

Is there anything I need to change or start doing???

Relax and enjoy your lo right now!  The independent sleep/pat-shush/routine will all start to fall into place with every passign week.  My biggest regret was that I spent the first 9 weeks of Taylor's life completely stressed about her routine and teaching independent sleep, and in the end everything worked out beautifully!  Just remain calm and try to be as consistent as possible.  Lo's thrive off of routine and consistency, so that is one of the best things you can do for him.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.

[Meg's Mom]

Hi, sorry i lost your post w/ the move...Andrea has given you some great advice. 

You are right, being a mom is not EASY - but you are doing a great job. 

[nathansmum]

Hi!
thanks to both of you for your replies and for the encouragement! There are some days when you don't feel like what you are doing is working out great. And although I know that it's going to work out in time, we live in a world that is so based on results that when you don't see any, you tend to get discouraged.

I try to take advantage of these moments, because I know how important it will be when he's older, and also because that's what everyone says. But being in the midst of all this I sometimes wonder how I could enjoy it fully...

I have a question:
Could we be becoming the prop for our little guy? Just wondering, because I've read how important it is to be there with our little ones to help them let go and settle and everything, but could all the patting and shhhing and being there to see him through be becoming the only way for him to fall asleep? Sometimes our little guy starts crying as soon as we stop patting... How do I know when I'm doing too much for him?

What did it look like for your naps and bedtime? What was your routine like? Did you have to stay long to pat and ssshhh?

It's great to be able to let this out and discuss it! Thanks! 

[Meg's Mom]

Hi!

we live in a world that is so based on results that when you don't see any, you tend to get discouraged.

  It helps to remember DC is just learning and all of this is new to them.  So no matter what you do, it will take time.  But at least w/ BW'erering you will be teaching dc in a way that is caring and won't create new problems later on.

Could we be becoming the prop for our little guy

  by using shh/pat, you are doing a alternative form of sleep training. Instead of using CIO or controlled crying, you are staying with your child, while you are giving them opportunities to self soothe. If used correctly, then it's a teaching tool.. if you pick up every single time your baby cries, then it becomes a prop.  In time you won't need to pat or stay so long and he'll learn to self soothe.

Unfortunately i didn't start BW until my LO was 4mos but we did something like this for a nap wind down:
Swaddle tight, carry dc around the house for few minutes, take to room, dim the lights, pull the blind (dc needs complete darkness), rock for a few minutes and then lie her down in bed.  If she can't settle I would shh/pat until almost asleep.  I knew i could leave she gave a great big sigh :-).

It is great to speak to other moms who all come from the same parenting style, isn't it.

[nathansmum]

  In time you won't need to pat or stay so long and he'll learn to self soothe.

Does it in general take long for them to learn to self soothe? How do we know when they don't need us anymore?

It is great to speak to other moms who all come from the same parenting style, isn't it.

It's amazing! and I don't find much of this style around here... All the nurses and lactation consultants, family and friends all have their say on what we are doing and how they think we should do it. And I know this happens with any parenting style but it's especially hard when there aren't many people close to you that can encourage you in the direction you are going.

Concerning the wake to sleep, to help him transition into the next sleep cycle... For how long do you think he's going to be needing me to help him?

[Meg's Mom]

Self soothing is a learned skill, that literally takes weeks. It's not something that will happen overnight, or within a few days. Your little one is just 8 weeks, so dc's just starting the process.

Do you use a paci or soother?  It is lot harder to go without the soother, -- life was a lot smoother with a soother for us.

I will be honest with you, we had lots of tears. I found that as dc matured, from 3 months to 4.5 months, dc ability to settle into sleep gradually improved. It took lots of patience and keeping calm on my part. Lots of patting-shushing, and staying near to support through the jolts.

Right now, should notice somewhat of a difference each week.  During the time, be as conscious of dc sleepy cues and making sure dc doesn't overtire/over stimulate prior to dc nap. You don't want to push dc awake time right now, just focus on helping dc to settle to sleep without the prop.

I hope the helps, I know it's not easy right now, but it will improve as dc matures each week.

[Taylor's Mommy]

It's amazing! and I don't find much of this style around here... All the nurses and lactation consultants, family and friends all have their say on what we are doing and how they think we should do it. And I know this happens with any parenting style but it's especially hard when there aren't many people close to you that can encourage you in the direction you are going.

I know what this is like!  I am the only one I know besides the ladies on here of course, that have even heard of the BW and her techniques.  Just stay confident with what you are doing and don't let anyone get you down.  i know, easier said than done! 

Quick recap on us so you can kind of get an idea of the road ahead (all lo's are differnt though  )
Week 9-consistently started using pat/shush for all naps and bedtimes
Week 12-dd finds her fingers and we start letting her hand out of the swaddle to practice (she never took to a paci)
Week 12-dd starts refusing to go to sleep with pat/shush
Week 14-start using pu/pd and by the 4th day dd had started learning to fall asleep on her own
By Week 16-dd was going to sleep independently on a consistent basis

[nathansmum]

Self soothing is a learned skill, that literally takes weeks. It's not something that will happen overnight, or within a few days. Your little one is just 8 weeks, so dc's just starting the process.

Do you use a paci or soother?  It is lot harder to go without the soother, -- life was a lot smoother with a soother for us.

Thanks! I will be patient for as long as I need to be! And having an idea of what parenting is like, it will be for the rest of his life! 

I do use a pacifier. Although I'm very scared of having it become a prop... I know that in her book, Tracy recommends it, but she also warns of the fact that it could still be a prop. How do I know when to use it and when not to?

Just stay confident with what you are doing and don't let anyone get you down. i know, easier said than done!

Quick recap on us so you can kind of get an idea of the road ahead (all lo's are differnt though )

Thanks for the encouragement! and also for the general look of what things could be like ahead!

Here is another question still: I know my little guy is still young and still probably needs his middle of the night feed, but what are the signs that will let me know when to try to make him last longer at night? Is there something to look for or do I just need to wait it out?

Thanks again! I really appreciate both all your help!!!

[Meg's Mom]

How do I know when to use it and when not to

  I can't speak from experience as we didn't have any problems w/ it but generally speaking...give it to him, if he doesn't want it..don't force it.  When he splits it out, leave it.  when you have run in every 5min to replace, guess what you have a problem lol.  I know a lot of mom take it out 20min after they fall asleep.  My LO spat it out when she fell asleep so we didn't need to do that, probably why we didn't have a problem

Here is another question still: I know my little guy is still young and still probably needs his middle of the night feed, but what are the signs that will let me know when to try to make him last longer at night? Is there something to look for or do I just need to wait it out?

  he will start to go longer and longer between the dream feed and waking at night.   I wouldn't make him until after 6mos and even that can be debated.

You are very welcome :-)