Short Naps - better routine or habit waking?

[EASYconfusedMom]

Thanks Stacey, I'll be sure not to wake her right up!  I did actually watch her nap this afternoon, and she was stirring at 20mins almost up until 30 mins.  I just tried keeping her asleep this time which worked, but now that I have a sense of timing I'll do as you suggested.

Jennifer

[Colesmom]

Hi Jennifer,

How many naps is DD taking?  And how long are her awake intervals?  At 7.5 months she'll need to stay up longer than 2 hours, closer to 2.5 or so.  Please post a typical day and we'll go from there. 

Glad to hear you were able to extend her nap...it is tricky business sometimes.

[EASYconfusedMom]

Hi Tracy,

Okay, things are still not on track but after sitting and watching Ashleigh nap for the past two days, I have a better idea of what she is doing, just not what to do about it!

Her day is sort of like this:

7:30 wake
immediately change diaper and breast feed
awake for ~ 1 1/2 hours
9:00 nap
she will wake anywhere between 20 - 30 mins, and again at 45 mins.  I can usually get her to go back to sleep, but it sometimes take 45 mins.
11:00 up
11:30 attempt solids, followed by BF
awake for ~2 1/2 hours
1:30 nap
3:30 up, immediate BF
6:00 cat nap (I know it is a bit late, but if she hasn't gotten main naps it is inevitable)
6:30 up, attempt solids
7:00 BF, bath every other day
bedtime ranges between 7:30 and 8:30, which is another problem.

During her naps, I noticed that she startles awake after 20 min, and around 30 mins she comes out of deep sleep but goes back down after 5-10 mins.  I was going to do wake to sleep around this time, but was worried I would wake her right up.  Even after going back into a deep sleep, she come right awake at 45 mins on the dot.  Today I could not get her to fall asleep again so she got up at 10:30.  I expect her to take her second nap at around 1:00.

Any ideas?

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello, I have only just spotted your post  . How are you getting on? Do you still need help with this? If so please let us know, and we'll have a good look at the schedule you've posted.

[EASYconfusedMom]

No problem, its been quite a nap adventure over the past few days since I posted.  I have read more posts of other people on the Wake to Sleep method and watching my LOs naps.  She seems to have overcome the 20 min stir but still comes wide awake at the 45 min interval.  I mean she snaps awake!  Only once in about a dozen tries have I managed to get her back to sleep...but it seems the outside world is against me!  the phone rings, the dog barks, someone in the house shouts right at that moment when she is coming awake which brings her right out of sleep... very frustrating!

I am thinking of trying the more agressive method of actually making her stir at 30-35 mins and seeing if I can get her past it that way.  Any other ideas would be appreciated.  FYI She falls asleep relatively well, just doesn't stay that way!

[Colesmom]

Hi Jennifer-sorry I left you hanging.  Busy around my house and the new site has thrown me off!

I wonder-have you tried extending her awake time?  1.5 hours for the first interval may not be quite long enough.  If you can get that first nap in place then hopefully the rest of the day will go better.

[EASYconfusedMom]

Funny you should mention that... I tried today to get to stay up 2 hours.  It almost happened.  I think she woke up around 7:15am and I managed to keep her occupied until she was really rubbing her eyes at findally went to sleep at 8:50.   A whole 5 mins extra! She slept for 45 mins exactly and unfortunately I fell asleep so I missed doing the wake to sleep.  She had no intention of going back to sleep, but then she seem rested too.

Sometimes in the mornings instead of a full nap, she has been taking only catnaps, waking happy.  I'm wondering if she is really not a morning person and just wants to "sleep in."  That was our old habit when she was very young.  when she woke up at 6 or 7 am, I would feed her then bring her into bed with me and we would sleep to 9.  I haven't done that in over 2 months now, but the damage may be done!

Another question to make sure I'm doing this right... if I make her stir or open her eyes at 30-35 mins, should she still wake up at 45 min?  She did yesterday, but I got her to sleep easily.  Not sure it that is how it is suppose to work, but I got 1:45 mins total from her!

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Another question to make sure I'm doing this right... if I make her stir or open her eyes at 30-35 mins, should she still wake up at 45 min?

At 30 mins, you don't need to completely wake her to make her open her eyes, just move her blanket, or touch her back so she stirs (ie sighs, or turns over in her sleep, that sort of thing). If you do this, she shouldn't wake up at 45mins. That's the theory, anyway, but if it worked for you like that yesterday, then 

One thing I noticed on your schedule, you say you are having problems with bedtime? I thought that perhaps if bedtime was slightly earlier, she would be more rested in the morning, and it would be easier to extend her A time. What problems are you having with this? Maybe if you did the bath everyday, and made it part of the routine, it could get easier.

HTH

[EASYconfusedMom]

Biggest problem with bedtimes is simlpy consistency.  It ends changes partly due to changing nap times/lenghts and because *sigh* DH just loves to play with the lo.  He isn't exactly big on the whole BW system, but he tries.  He just feels there is more room for variation than I do.  It doesn't help when I say she needs to go to bed at 7:30, but then doesn't fall asleep until 8:00pm because the "catnap" was a ful nap and ended at 6:00pm.  Baths are a bit stimulating for LO so we don't do them every night.

Oh, and some good news!  The second nap today went very well, with WTS at 35 mins and sleeping right through for 1:30!  She is having one more nap now, woke up at 45 mins (DH came home early and we were "occupied" ) but then with minimal help went back to sleep!  Bedtime might be 8:99pm tonight, but that is when she fell asleep last night after several bad naps.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Yay  on your good news! Well done lo (and Mum ).

*sigh* DH just loves to play with the lo. He isn't exactly big on the whole BW system, but he tries. He just feels there is more room for variation than I do.

I know how you feel :roll: . Dp is the master of the wind-up just before sleep time. Can you have a chat with him and ask him to co-operate, even if it's just for a couple of weeks? Once you have a good sleep pattern established, it's not such a disaster if it gets disrupted from time-to-time, but could you ask him to support you for just a couple of weeks, while you concentrate on the sleep training (for want of a better phrase), after that, it should have benefits for all of you.

If you can make a big effort on consistency of bedtime for a while, I really think it could help. A good bedtime routine is vital, but it doesn't have to include a bath - you know your lo best, so you are best placed to gauge what will setle her best.

It doesn't help when I say she needs to go to bed at 7:30, but then doesn't fall asleep until 8:00pm because the "catnap" was a ful nap and ended at 6:00pm.

Can I suggest the unthinkable  ? If ds' last nap goes on too late, I always (gasp :shock: ) wake him up b/c I know it will affect bedtime. For example, if bedtime is 7pm, I would not let the last nap go on after 5pm, no matter when it began. This is where the good bedtime routine comes in handy, b/c lo should not get too upset if she gets tired due to a shorter catnap, as she is doing her routine, she understands whats happening, and she knows she getting to bed soon. Hope that made sense, I'm really tired  :roll: .

HTH, keep us updated on progress 

[EASYconfusedMom]

Can you have a chat with him and ask him to co-operate, even if it's just for a couple of weeks? Once you have a good sleep pattern established, it's not such a disaster if it gets disrupted from time-to-time, but could you ask him to support you for just a couple of weeks, while you concentrate on the sleep training (for want of a better phrase), after that, it should have benefits for all of you.

We have had that chat one time too many.  He gave up and said "Just tell me what to do, I don't want to argue anymore."  Like I said, he tries, but doesn't have the same buy in, and therefore doesn't remember what I ask him to do, and doesn't really take kindly to reminders (but that rant is for another board).  If I'm home, I usually have control over going to bed, but Monday nights are up to him.  And of course Miss Ashleigh doesn't always cooperate either!

Can I suggest the unthinkable  ? If ds' last nap goes on too late, I always (gasp :shock: ) wake him up b/c I know it will affect bedtime.

I thought about it before but wasn't sure if it was better to wake her up or practice getting past the 45 min barrier.  I'll keep that in mind for future naps.  Today the morning nap was 45 mins, we had one good nap from 12:30 - 2:00, and then another short one from 4:00 - 4:45.  Even though she was awake before 5, she didn't go down until 8pm.  Now, it's like as the day goes on, she can be awake longer:

Morning awake 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 hours to first nap
awake 2 1/2 hours btw 1st and 2nd nap
awake 2 1/2 hours btw 2nd and 3rd nap
awake 3 hours btw 3rd nap and bedtime

I agree that if we get that first nap at the right time and the right length, then we won't need that third nap and bedtime will happen at the right time.  AAGGGHHH!  <banging head on wall> no wonder I'm so confused!    I'm going to move her bath to the morning to see if that helps with extending that A time.

Well I am going to keep trying and after a few days I'll get back to you on how things are going.  Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

Jennifer (& Ashleigh)

[EASYconfusedMom]

Well, it is as with life... two steps forward, one step back...

I have managed to extend her A time in the morning to 2 hours, so as long as she wake up around 7 we are good to go for a nap around 9.  As for getting a full 1.5 hour nap, that is still hit and miss.  I realized that she starts coming out of her nap as early as 30 mins, so I try and get in at 25 mins to make her stir.  Sometimes she keeps on sleeping, sometimes she wakes up at 45 mins, sometimes she will go back to sleep.  I have a feeling that the 3 days Tracey suggested to do this in her book will be more like several weeks for me!  I just hope that one day I can stop timing her naps.

Today was very odd... she woke up at 45 mins, tried helping her back to sleep, I think I made it worse, and left her for half an hour while she looked like she was sleeping but cried out every 5 mins or so.  Now she is sleeping fine, but I will have to wake her up to save the schedule.

Anyway, I am going to count the progress, and move on to getting her night sleep better.  Maybe that will help!