The Hand that Rocks the Cradle...

[Luka's Dad]

Hi,

It's been a while since I posted on this board, and this is my first post in this Forum (I was more a "general sleep" type person before).

My LO is about 14 weeks old now.  We read the books and started with what we thought was EASY when he was 4 weeks old.  I'm beginning to think that we've got it wrong as things seem to be getting worse sleep wise, and we are currently all over the place routing wise.  When we read the book we kind of hooked into the whole EAS part, and one line where Tracy says that when they wake up they will be hungry.  Which is fine in principle if they stick to the sleep patterns she describes.  However, our LO, and I gather from this board MOST LO's don't.  So what we have is daytime naps of either 40-45 minutes, or 2-2.5hours.  A nightime routine of bath, bed by 7, nap for 45, wake up, feed, scream or generally be unsettled until anywhere from 9.30 to 12.30 (as was last night), then possiby 3 night wakings at say 12, 4, 6 and finally up at 7 for the next day.  My wife feeds him everytime he wakes up (he is BF and doesn't like taking a bottle of expressed milk - even if my wife had the time to express some).  So back to the literal translation of Tracy's book. 

I can't help but think that we are getting something wrong, but being as my DW is the hand that rocks the cradle and has to deal with him all day, and, like most men I know, I am terrible at disscussing things like this with her, there seems to be very little I can do.  My wife seems to think that it's just a matter of time before he sorts himself out and he is just a little bit of a late starter in the sleep department, but I kind of think that there must be more things we can do to help him along (typical man attitude I know).   The night before last my wife got 2 hours sleep, last night 4, I got a bit more than that as I can't be involved in the night feeds, but I'm getting worried about my wifes health.

We tried extending naps a couple of weeks ago, but my LO really kicked off, and 20 minutes of screaming reduces my wife and me to tears.  She can't be expected to deal with that on her own when I am at work so we gave up after the weekend.  I know this was a bad thing to do what with consistancy and all, but it wasn't helping any of us.

Any help/advice (especially on the "how to talk to stressed mum" approach) would be very welcome.

Thanks for "listening"

[Deb_in_oz]

HI there

firstly - good to have you in our forum  :wink:  it is nice to see such a caring and involved dad!

i know you say his naps are all over the place and such but coudl you give me an idea of a full day - it helps to see exactly all awake times, when he is feeding and where the short vs long naps are taking place, etc. Also, what woudl you say his temperment is?

We tried extending naps a couple of weeks ago, but my LO really kicked off, and 20 minutes of screaming

what method were you using? shh/pat or PU/PD?

when i see his whole day i will come back to you with specific ideas. in the meantime i think the best think you can do for your wife is reassure her that she is doing a good job and that you will figure this out together

BTW - did the nightfeeds increase recently? 3 mo is a major growth spurt time.

[Luka's Dad]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.  It's a bit tricky giving details of a full day as they seem to vary somewhat, but here is yesterdays:

7-7.40 E
7.40-8.15 A
8.30-10.30 S
10.30-11.00 E
11-11.45 A
12-12.45 S
1-1.30 E
1.30-2.30 A
3-5.30 S
5.30 - 6.10 E
6.10 - 6.40 A (Bath & story etc)
7.05 - 7.50 S
7.55 - 8.30 E

Extreme deficulty settling with E @ 10

11.45 - 5 S
5 - 5.30 E
6.50 wake up and start again

Yesterday I feel was atypical, as normally after the 45 min nap after bath he only takes an hour or so to settle and we're done by 9.30 or so.  This will usually result in feeds at 12, 4, and 6 and wake again at 7.  I think because he refused to settle for so long, he didn't do the 12 o'clock and managed to last until 5. 

Basically before xmas things looked like they were improving, he would go down at around 9 have an 11 & 4 oclock feed and that was it.  At xmas we stayed at the inlaws for a week and a half, which I think coincided with his 3 month growth spurt or something, and it was a complete nightmare.  We started PU/PD after we got home as shh/pat just seemed not to work anymore.  We managed to break a dependancy of falling asleep on us which he picked up over christmas, but he rarely manages more than 4 hours at night, usually 3 hours is the longest he will go.

When we put him down to sleep (for naps and nightime) we do the same thing and say the same things, and in the day he will "chat" to himself for 5 minutes or so before falling asleep.  In the evening he will "chat" (actually sounds more like gargling at the moment - charming for the first 5 minutes, but wearing after that) for about 20 minutes then get upset that he isn't asleep yet. Then things go from bad to worse.  If I am lucky I can get him to settle in another 30 minutes, if I'm not he goes into meltdown and it takes all evening.

Any thoughts?

TIA,

Tom

[Luka's Dad]

Hi there - first, I want to emphasize that you really seem to have been doing a good job with EASY - don't think that you've been messing things up so much!

Yeah, compared to alot of posts I read on this group, I don't think we have things too bad at all.  The nightwakings are an issue though, as my DW is a bad sleeper, and even if Luka sleeps for 9 hours of the night, with 3 or 4 wakings my wife will only sleep 3 or 4 as it takes her so long to get back to sleep.

First, it's worthwhile looking at supply issues for your wife's breastfeeding

I'm pretty sure it's not a supply issue.  I don't know what it is a good amount, but if my DW expresses in the morning she can get off 4 oz pretty easily.  Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less.  You could be right about the comfort sucking as opposed to proper eating though.  My wife has often said that he dozes off, or does little butterfly sucks as you describe it.  The problem then is what we can possibly do about it, and how I can talk to my wife about it in such a manner that she doesn't think I am being critical of how she does things at the moment.

Is she able to sleep when he naps during the day?

Not that i know of.  Yesterday she fell asleep at the same time as him for the first time that I know of.  I have started doing Luka's first morning A time if he wakes up at 7, as I have just enough time before work.  Well, it makes me a bit late, but we're quiet at the moment   That way Karen can get a little bit more sleep if she is lucky.

It sort of seems that your wife feeds him every time he wakes at night. If he's feeding well during the day, and having good naps (so he's not overtired), then he's probably able to go slightly longer stretches at night.

There is no sort of about it, that is exactly what she does, as she took what Tracy said in one part of her book very literally.  I would personally like to try and get out of that habit, but whenever we try anything different Luka screams blue murder and my DW gets in a mood with me for upsetting him.  She is convinced he will grow out of it eventually, which I know he will, it's just a matter of when, and can we cope with it long enough.

It's common for bf babies to need to feed once or twice a night for much of the first year, but at 3 months, MOST bf babies can go about 4-6 hrs at a stretch at night.  He seems like he can do this most of the time.  Do you use a paci at all?

He is capable of going longer, as he has managed a 7 hour stretch once, and 5 hours quite a few times.  On most occasions though, he will wake up after 3 hours of so (sometimes less).  We don't use a paci as we have never been able to get him to take one (tried several times).  He won't take a bottle either.   

Thanks for your input.

Tom

[Richelle]

Hi Tom,

It is really nice to 'see' such a caring and thoughtful daddy on here!

That aside I just wanted to reiterate that maybe your LO is catching some zzzzz's while eating.  My DD did this and I was pretty clueless until she stopped napping at about 10 weeks  :shock: !  I used to feed her for 30 to 45 minutes and didn;t realize until my friend who is a nurse said to me that she thought DD was alseep once while I was feeding her. 

I didn;t realize b/c she had always taken a long time to eat and she WAS sucking the whole time.  Once I started really watching her I realized that she was finished 'eating' in 5 to 10 minutes and she was nodding off!  I also failed to realize this b/c it was nice that I had that time to spend with DD when it was quiet and relaxed, I am ashamed to admit that I would even check my e-mails or file my nails whilst she was eating  :oops:  b/c with no naps it was really the only time I had for myself.  Obviously this became a whole vicious cycle but once I started taking Sophie from the breast after 10 minutes and pushed her A times out it only took about 4 days and I had a brand new napping baby!

Approaching your DW about it is another thing.  I know if my DH tried to 'suggest' things to me in those early days, being sleep deprived and readjusting to hormone levels, I did take things very personally or literally.  Maybe if you showed her the posts that would help?  It may be different for her to read about your concern for her than if you suggest a change?  Either way good luck and you are doing such a great job as Parents, you have a very lucky LO!

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Tom, I know when I was exhausted at the beginning, I bit off poor dh's head more times than I can count, when he was just trying to help!  :oops: What seemed to work best was when he caught be during the day or evening BEFORE I got stressed with the night, etc, and suggested we needed to plan or strategize.  He gave a suggested time frame to try something new and we talked out a compromise. You could show her the posts, if you're comfortable with that, or just try to explain some of the suggestions, if you think it would be better...

With the actual feeding, it's important to remember that babies need to suck.  Some babies need more than others - which is where paci's come in handy.  I know a lot of moms had success just trying paci's over and over until lo's took to them. But if they don't, remember that if they have the chance, most babies will suck themselves to sleep.  It sounds like her milk supply is great (and you can remind her of that and that she's doing a great job at nursing him!), so now all she needs to do is watch.  Once he's stopped the slow suck-swallow and started the butterfly sucks, it's for pleasure and not nutrition (mostly).  She can use breast compression to get the flow up and trigger more swallowing.  Once that stops helping, break the latch and switch sides.  Same on the other side.  When the nibbling starts there, break off, burp and move to Activity.

For nights, if he can go 5 hrs at least without a feed, that would be a good place to start.  Would DW be willing to wear earplugs for a couple of nights?  And can you manage to do the pu/pd for a couple of nights?  :shock: That way, she might not get as upset by Luka's cries and you can wake her when it's time for a feed...  Also, remind her that crying is his form of communication - lacking the ability to talk yet!  He's just expressing his frustration because things are changing from what he was used to.  He's not being hurt or neglected - he has you with him, it's just that you're changing the rules and he's reluctant to accept it easily.

He sounds an awful lot like my dd at that age....they do eventually outgrow it, but it can take a long time.  It'll be easier for him to accept the changes now rather than later.

Let me know if you have more questions or need more help.

[Mom2katiebug]

I'm in no position to give advice as my DD has put us through the wringer with naps, but just wanted to know if your wife thinks there's a problem or are you just anticipate future difficulties?  Perhaps approach the conversation as you've mentioned in your post - concern for her health and well-being (an am assuming sanity) versus a Right Way/Wrong Way discussion.

Good luck.