Need a plan for Tonight - PLEASE HELP!

[shawneam]

Hello!
A little background. DD is 17 mos., Has never successfully slept through the night - unless she is co-sleeping with us. She has off and on been sleeping in her crib or our bed the last 17 mos. I picked up the BW book 3 weeks ago and started pu/pd and all of Tracy's other advice immediately.  Things have gone well so far - she is sleeping and falling asleep in her crib, which she never did before.  Her naps are ok - usually at 11:30 or 12 lasting from 1.5 hours to 2 hours.  She goes to bed most of the time at 7 PM.  However, for the last 3 weeks she has consistently been waking up 2 to 4 times a night.  Most of the time - going right back to sleep as soon as either DH or I come in the room and lay her back down.  The one time that is different is at either 3 or 4 AM. She is getting up and staying up from either 20 minutes to 2 hours!  (most of the time it is the 2 hours thing) - sometimes not going back to sleep AT ALL.  This has NOT improved in the last 3 weeks.

I know that she is just wanting our attention and tries to play with us in the middle of the night and she knows as long as she is awake, we'll be in there with her. We don't talk to her - except to say, "it's still nighttime, go back to sleep" We don't play with her and just sit in the room or sh/pat.  I think that she is not getting the picture and wants our attention (even though it is minimal) to get back to sleep. Should we try not going into her room at all when she wakes up?? We have a video monitor in her room, so we can see what she is doing at night and if she is ok. I know all her needs are met. She is not sick right now and is ok. Do I let her cry it out?  What should my plan be? I'm ready to start it tonight. DH works nights, but is off for the next 3 - so we need to do this now. I can't wait. We haven't slept well in 3 weeks.  Does anyone have advice on how to do this?  Currently, we are thinking that when we put her down to sleep originally, we'll just say, "see you in the morning" and then don't go back until the morning. Is this totally wrong or against what we've been doing?  Someone help!  I need some sleep!!

Thank you!
Shawnea

[jswerczek]

Hi Shawnea,
     I am moving this to the toddler sleep board, they will help you over there!

Good luck ~

[shawneam]

aahh - I know I posted the message before, but needed to add - DD has had a TERRIBLE time going down for her nap. I don't know what is going on. She's been screaming for the last hour - DH is in there with her right now - for the first time, she crawled out of her crib!  Now what do I do. She is doing it repeatedly right now and refusing to go to sleep - she hit her head when she was teetering on the side and fell back in the crib! We were going to try the cry-it-out stuff tonight - if she can get out of her crib, what do we do???  How do we keep her in there?  HELP!

[imsmum]

I she falls back to sleep around 5 or 6 in the morning  when does she wake up again?  If it's at 7 or 8 am maybe her nap's a bit early which is why she is resisting it and would also make her overtired when whe goes to bed, compounding the night waking problem.  That 3 or 4 am wakeup is always the hardest to get them back down from.  Believe it or not what helped us was putting our dd down earlier ie. around 6:30 pm.  For a few nights she still woke at 3-4 am but would get herself down--yes we went in there and yes it took 2 hours! but she would sleep until 7:15 or so.  We kept her nap at the usual 12 o'clock and after a few nights she slept through from 6:45 to 5:45 --too early, but it was a solid 11 hours.  We're still working through the bumps in this but you might find if she goes down a bit earlier--especially if she misses a nap it will help the night wakings.  Hugs! 

[Florencia]

I don't think the Cry It Out methoud is what you're looking for right now, since it's been so little since you moved her out of your bed, she might find your signals conffusing: first i get to spend the whole night with them, then they send me here and then no one listens to me! I think if you let her cry, she'll reinforce her thought that she's left alone and hence her fear.

I see many things that can be playing around here.

1. THere is always a regression when sleep training. Just when you think you have them figured out, they regress. So being consistent with the new routine and way of doing things (even when you don't see improval for several nights) is the best way to sucess.

2. You don't mention about teething. My son is 18 months now and just 2 months ago we had a molar nightmare. His whole sleep was off, was refusing naps, going down, being left alone (he even jumped out of his crib once when i left his room--- he hasnt done that again, thank God). I thought he had gone crazy but assoon as the molars were out, he went back to his old self. Of course, I had a rough time keeping his routine consistant but im glad i did because he is back to his old self now. In the meantime, we had a lot of short naps, night wakings, bed refusals, you name it.

3. So, if you suspect any teeth are coming you might want to try some pain releif before bed and nap time. That allways seems to prevent night wakings.

If you're positive that no teeth are on the way, just stay next to her crib (in the past months i've brogght a sleeping bag to my son's bedroom). That way, you're there when she wakes at night, she does not freak and is more likely to go back to sleep. DO this 3 nights in a row (if you can switch with DH, better so at least one gets to spend a full bed night...) If you see she's still waking, maybe you have to stay in the room for a whole week (Tracy talks about as long as 2 weeks). If you notice progress with the wakings, then you can try to move the sleeping bag nearer the door until you're out.

Many moms here have had huge sucess with the WAlk in / Walk out method wich is sort of a controlled crying. You only walk in if shee's crying and to the count of 10, then reassure for another count of 10 and then walk out. SHe'll eventually settle. PErsonally, ds found this too estimulating and sort of a hyde and seek game (lovely at 3 am, you can imagine). SO i went for the sleeping bag. As long as you dont bring her to your bed, you can be in her room, teaching her it's a safe and nice place to be.

You say you read Tracy's book. HAve you read the toddler's one? and her last book has a case of co-sleeping for a toddler that you might find very helpful.

Good luck tonight!

[shawneam]

Thanks for the responses. Yes, she is teething - 3 molars!  yikes. I know they bother her, but I have to keep this up right?  I guess you are right, CIO might not be the answer yet. I just feel like I'm at my wits end.  We have been sleeping in her room - on a blow up mattress - DH and I taking turns - she thinks it is play time. I just put her down and then lay back down, but she screams her head of and tries to get my attention - at 3 or 4. She just won't go back to bed. I have moved her bedtime earlier to try that too - 6:30. It hasn't seemed to help at all.

I have read the toddler book - it's great. I love Tracy's ideas, just having a harder time than I thought. I was hoping for results by now.  I guess I'm seeing some, I just am so sleep deprived and don't know what to do.

How do I handle the 4 AM for 2 hours thing?  By the way, she goes back to sleep (sometimes - but rarely) for usually 20 minutes to an hour MAX. She is typically getting about 10 hours of sleep (both with naps and at night)  I know she should be getting between 12 and 14.  How can I get her to do this!!???  What time should her nap be at if she is up from 4-6, then goes back to sleep for an hour and gets up at 7. She went to sleep at 7:50 last night (I put her in bed at 7:15 because of a late nap yetserday). Normally I start the process of putting her to sleep at 6:30 and she is sleeping by 7.

Thanks for ANY responses! I need some advice! DH and I don't know where else to turn.

[Florencia]

Yep i hear you, i could've written your post word by word last month. DS cut 4 molars at once.

I too was at a loss about timings because of bad naps and night wakings, each day was diferent. Someone here told me to pick a nap timing and stick with it no matter the morning waking. I picked 1:30 Pm (since ds goes to bed really late, like 9 pm). SOme girls here have the 12 Pm or 1230 naptime. THen if she wakes at 4, 5, 6 whatever, you put her down at the same time, and in a few days, her body will adjust to her new timing.

Beleive me, teething really messes with all training and i beleive that's the reason she's so restless at nights ( a combo of overtiredness with pain, that makes the pain worse). SO by all means, give the pain releif before bedtime, even if she does not seem in pain. Then, i beleive it's ok to give a second dose 6 hours after the first one, in case she still wakes needing it. I also had the 2 hour waking for a week. Then he went back gradually to sleep for longer and more solid stretches. Just when i had lost all the hopes.

There are still more things that you could try like the walk in / walk out method or the wake to sleep one in case she's waking at the exact same hour each night. But let's give the pain releif a try tonight and in case it doesnt work then we'll think of something. Be sure to trade nights with dh or someone else (like grandmas). You have to do this having all the rest you can have, and i know that sometimes is really difficult so dont be afraid to ask for help.

Here's to a peaceful night!

[tylersmommy]

One thing you don't mention...how fast are you responding to her? Do you go in at the first whimper? Make sure you're waiting until it's pretty clear that she isn't going to settle herself down. Don't go in if she's just playing by herself either, so she has a chance to fall back asleep on her own.

We've had a lot of success with the in and out method. The key is to do as little as it takes to settle her. She's old enough to understand when you tell her it's time for sleep, so pick a catch phrase to use. Ours was (and still is) "Tyler, night night." When the crying starts and it's clear that she isn't going to settle herself down, use that phrase and try to reassure her from the doorway. Sometimes the sound of your voice is enough to do it. If not, she might have to see you. Stand in the doorway and say the phrase again. If that doesn't settle her, you'll probably have to go in to her. Physically lay her down if she's standing and say it again. You might have to pat her a bit or repeat the phrase over and over. Once she stops crying, LEAVE. Don't stay there until she's asleep. You'll probably have to do it over and over again. It takes several days, but if you stick with it, you'll probably find that it takes less and less help from you to calm her down. Make sure you give her a few seconds to try and calm herself down before you start intervening...it's pretty common for toddlers to initially cry in protest when you leave, then stop after a few seconds.

I'd try to stick to her normal routine as much as you can, even with the 4AM thing. If she's drop dead tired, then yes, put her down for a nap or bedtime a bit early. What you don't want to do is reinforce the night waking by compensating for that lost sleep during the day. It's a pretty fine line. And keep in mind that some night waking is normal. I think at that age, Tyler would still wake a couple times a night but would settle on his own or very quickly. He outgrew it, but the 4 AM thing...not sure what to make of that. Hopefully once the separation issue gets sorted, you'll see some changes there.

Keep us posted!

[shawneam]

TylersMommy thanks for your response!
We have a video monitor, so watch her and wait until she stands up and starts screaming before we respond.  Then we go in.

Florencia - Thank you for your response too. We are going to try then pain med thing tonight. DH is going to stay with her. We'll try and put her down a little earlier (just about to start - DH is giving her a bath!) and he'll sleep on a blow up bed next to her bed tonight. I know DH and I have a few inconsistancies that might be contributing. We wrote out our plan and are hoping to stick to it. We are determined.  I'll let you know in the morning how things go!  This is taking so much longer than I thought. Who knew sleep would be such a fight!

Anyone else who has any ideas, opinions, thoughts, suggestions I'd still love to hear them - we are desparate for anything!  I'll keep checking back and let you know how it goes!

Shawnea (pronouced shanay in case anyone is wondering - my mom is crazy with her spellings:) )

[jessica and emilys mummy]

Hi
The only thing that worked for Emily was in and out.
A bit of background,it would take her hours of crying and me staying in the
room before she got to sleep and she would wake up as soon
as I got up to leave,she would NEVER let me lay on the floor next to
her I had to be standing over her.When she woke during the night,it would take
3-4 hours to get her back to sleep.
AFter months of this,I found BW site and that changed our lives.This is what we did'
Put her to bed,say goodnight,go out and shut the door.If she starts crying,go in,lay her
down,go out,count to 10,go in,lay her down,come out,count to 10.Repeat this until
she stops crying.If she stops crying,stop counting,start again if she cries again.
Don't go in to check she's ok.(I learned this the hard way
I promise you the first night will be a nightmare,although it took us 50 mins.The 2nd
night was about 30 mins,then about 10 and then it was great.Sometimes I have to
do it every now and again and it takes me about 3 counts for it to work.
Persevere and I promise it will help.

[imsmum]

I  agree that sticking with a nap time is important even with the early wakeup and (possible) return to sleep.  When my dd did the 2 hour wakeup at 4 am we set a nap time of 12.  I do think part of the problem--in addition to the molars--is the early nap, since that will reinforce the early wakeup.  It also probably makes her overtired--if she naps from 11:30 to 1 and is down at 7 that a 6 hour stretch awake in the pm.  If you look at the sticky on this board about toddler schedules most go down to bed between  4-5 hours after wakeup from their naps, even if they nap 2+ hours!  You may not be able to push the nap back much past 12 at this stage because of the early wakeups but I would bring the bedtime forward --regardless of how long she naps, and stick with it.  Once she starts sleeping through you can start to push both nap and bedtime back to a more convenient time. 

[shawneam]

Hey Ladies,
Thank you everyone for your advice - keep it coming!

Last night went relatively well. DH and I were firm to a plan, but we didn't need it too much last night (good to be on the same page though - I thought we were, but then we realized we were allowing for certain things that the other wasn't and DD was getting confused).  DD started to go to sleep at 6:30.  Actually fell asleep at 7:10 - not a lot of fussing, just took a little bit to settle down.

She woke up a couple of times in the middle of the night, but didn't need any assistance to return to sleep. DH slept in the room on a blow up mattress in the middle of the room.  DD then woke up at 5:05 AM (an improvement from being up at 3 or 4 for 2 hours!). DH had gotten up at 4:30 - and had gone to the restroom and was getting water in the kitchen when DD woke up (might have been part of the problem) but she didn't cry, she just hiked her leg over the crib and tried to get out, when DH came back in, she tried to get back in the crib and bumped her head.  Needless to say,  she was then up for the day. What do I do about crawling out of her crib?  Do I take the front off - if I do that, then how do I get her to stay in her bed (that was the problem before - I had the front off and she would get in and out constantly! - she did much better with the front back on as a crib, but now can get out!) What do I do?

Nap went ok today. I stuck with the 12PM naptime. She screamed and fought me for a minute or two - gave some tylenol and ora-gel for her teeth (3 molars and 1 bottom tooth coming in!  Ouch!)- she was asleep in 2 minutes. I decided to rock her for her naps only (a suggestion on the board) so she can get some good naps in and lengthen her nighttime sleep. She goes down in there fine for nighttime, just needs some assistance for naps I guess. Is this ok? or am I setting up for some more accidental parenting? It seemed to work out well. I think she does better falling asleep at night because the routine is much more involved then at naptime - plus it is much darker in her room.  Is there a good "naptime" routine that you girls use?  We have lunch, clean up, change diaper, read 1 book (2 at night) and into bed, but she fights me and fights me. Is rocking her at this point until she is established and as soon as she falls asleep - put her in her crib?  I did this the last two days and it was much better.

What do you girls think? thank you for the advice!  I needed some directions!

[Florencia]

Hi Shawnea

I think you're doing an excellent job and just need to give it some days for dd to get the idea. I'm happy to hear that you're seeing progress and yes, sleep training takes a really hard and long time of wokr and effort to settle. But it sure is worth it!

I'd say that you have to do what you're comfortable with in order to get the most sleep you can for dd. Even if you ahve to rock her for naps (as long as you dont have to rock her for hours!). I used to rock ds for naps and was worried that id have to do that forever but like 3 months ago he grew out of it and asked me to go directly to his crib. So as soon as you have night sleep and routines on control, we can start working on the rocking if you're still concerned about it.

Since you mention that her only waking was when your dh was out of her room i'm thinking that she's having a hard time sleeping away from you (remember that she was used to cosleep with you for a long time). So it may take a few weeks of you sleeping in the blow up matress in her room to make her used to the idea that she's going to sleep alone but you'll be around. I think this is going to be a gradual process but you guys are doing a great job!

You can try to talk her during the day (kids at this age understand SO MUCH more than we can think ) like: big girls sleep alone in their rooms, or this is mommy's room and this is big girl room, stuff like that. When ds had sep. anxiety issues i used to repeat him that i'd never leave him, that im always around. I even showed him how i use the monitor so i always hear him, etc. HE got it, really, now he goes to the monitor and screams PAPA when he wants his dad to be here (even when i tell him he's at work blesss him)...

So stay confident and keep it up the good job! you're on a good direction!

we're here for you, keep us posted!

[tylersmommy]

Glad things went better last night! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for tonight!

One thing jumped out at me...is her room dark during the day? If you haven't already, I highly recommend blackout curtains or aluminum foil/black posterboard on the windows. It can make a huge difference!

IMHO, it's not a huge no-no to rock her to sleep for naps only, as long as you realize that when she gets back on track you might have another issue to tackle. Like Florencia said, sometimes they just grow out of being rocked to sleep on their own, but sometimes they come to rely on it and lose the ability to fall asleep on their own. If she starts needing it to fall asleep at bedtime too, or her night wakings become more frequent or longer, that's often a sign that it's becoming a dependency. Just something to keep in mind.

Good luck, and keep us posted!