Author Topic: Help us with our routine please!  (Read 4002 times)

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Offline KellyC

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Help us with our routine please!
« on: January 29, 2006, 14:32:28 pm »
Hi guys

I've been following the BW way with my 4.5 month old DS since day 1 and we've mostly done really well with it.  We went through a really sticky patch between 3 and 4 months when we were sleep training using pat/shush and eventually PU/PD and he was only taking 45 minute naps.  I decided to relax and go with the flow around this time because I was getting too stressed out trying to extend his naps but he can now go to sleep independently (if not usually just a little PU/PD) and is perfectly capable of extending his naps. 

However, his naps are all over the place - sometimes he only does half an hour for his first nap and wakes up happy and smiling and if I try to extend the nap it makes him scream (because he was ready to get up!) and this goes against my maternal instincts, it's just awful!  Other times he'll do 1.5 hours in the morning (1 hr 50mins A time seems to sometimes work at the moment).  But if he takes a long nap in the morning he only takes short naps for the rest of the day.  If he takes a short nap in the morning I sometimes get a longer one later on but sometimes it's catnaps for the entire day!

I need some help to 'fix' Zander's routine because not being on a predictable routine doesn't suit us (particularly Zander's textbook mummy!).  I just can't seem to get his A times right - he can stay awake for up to 2.5 hours even if he's tired and he doesn't seem to have any tired signs anymore (no yawns).  Should I try cutting his A times all back to 1hr 50mins and take it from there - I basically don't know whether to lengthen or shorten his A times!

Btw he's feeding every 4 hours and this suits us fine.  He's waking once or twice in the night now when he used to sleep through (even without a DF).  I've expressed some milk for tonight and I'm going to try a DF without taking him out of his crib.  I can't pick him up without waking him like I could when he was younger and it really disrupts him.  He's an early riser too and is often very tired even at the start of the day.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated, I feel we've lost our way!

Thanks
Kelly

 
Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2006, 02:59:20 am »
can you try posting your typical day and then maybe we can try going from there.
Micky
mom to 2 beautiful boys!

Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 08:06:05 am »
Hi

I'm afraid I can't as there is no typical day - that's my problem!  All I can say is that I'm basically trying to follow the standard 4 hour EASY routine in Tracy's book.

Thanks
Kelly
Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline Luke-n-Me

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 15:48:40 pm »
Kelly,

I hadn't read any of your posts in a while and wondered how things were with you.  Annika is 5 mos. today and she is doing EXACTLY the same thing as Zander-to a tee.  So, I don't really have any advice, but can tell you that you're not alone!
Nancy

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Annika (8-30-05)

Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 16:35:27 pm »
well..... :-\  it's hard to know even where to start.  His night waking may be from him being overtired so for the first couple of days i'd try to get him to nap as much as he will and not focus on how long the naps are.  Then maybe once he's 'caught up' you can try doing set A times with him.  For sure stick with the same bedtime every night and his clock should start to adjust around that.  I would try going back to shorter A times like you said.  Zander might not be ready to go any longer than that just yet.  He for sure should still be taking at least 2 naps + a catnap.  Jackson just went down to 2 naps at 9 months.  If the shorter A time is giving you fairly regular short naps then I'd say he's ready for longer A time...seems backwards but that was what was happening to us and a few of the other BW mom's in our age group.  By short I mean 30 min and waking happy.  let me know how the battle goes in a couple days...I'll be looking forward to hearing from you! ((((((((HUGS)))))))))  Good Luck!!
Micky
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Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2006, 18:08:08 pm »
Thanks for your reply.  We did PU/PD for the second half of both Zander's naps today and he just wouldn't go back to sleep.  He also only had a 20 minute catnap in his pram this afternoon so I've just put an extremely tired baby to bed at 6pm!  We'll try cutting the A times right back tomorrow and see where this gets us.  He does wake up happy from his short naps but has taken a longer am nap by putting him down early so maybe he is somehow overtired even though he doesn't seem it?

I've never quite understood whether the wind-downs for naps are part of the A time or the S time, which is it?!

Hi Annika's mum, Zander's 5 months this week too - isn't it mad that they're so old already?!  I shouldn't complain too much really as I haven't had to post in a while - I remember when I was taking the paci away and sleep training I had hundreds of questions and was always on here and I had no life either!  At least now Zander can stay awake longer we get out more, even if our routine is totally unpredictable.

Kelly x



Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2006, 18:26:06 pm »
hi again!
My lo is similar in that he always seems to take longe am naps and then just short catnaps in the afternoon.  I've tried waking him early from his morning nap in hopes of getting a longer afternoon nap but it just doesn't always work that way with him so I've just begun to go with the flow a little more and he seems a bit happier with that and me too since I'm not so overly focused on what the book says.  ;) ::)  The winddown is part of the A time.  I don't usually try to extend Jackson's naps if he wakes happy.  i usually only try to if he wakes screaming.   What time does Zander usually wake in the am?
Micky
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Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2006, 18:35:37 pm »
Hi again

His wake up time varies and depends on whether he's had a feed during the early hours (he often does these days!).  It can be anywhere between 6am and 7.30am - I haven't been able to set a wake up time yet because I'm aiming for 7am but more often than not he's up before that and will not entertain going back to sleep!  I really don't want to set a 6am wake up time unless I have to!

Kelly x

Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2006, 18:47:18 pm »
Unfortunately quite often these lo's at this age seem to like the early mornings!!  ::)  Usually once they get a bit older you can stretch out there bed time and then help them readjust there morning wake up with 'wake to sleep' but for now you may just have to bite the bullet.  :( Sorry.  Also, if he is going to bed so early, it's more likely that he'll want to wake early.  Kindof ends up being a vicious circle.  i found what worked for us was keeping a set bedtime.  Somedays it was hard on both of us to make it to bedtime (and then we'd have a night waking or two) but if I didn't keep the set bedtime he'd wake early, want to go to bed early, wake earlier, want to go to bed earlier, etc, etc.... So I finally ended up sticking with a set bedtime.
Micky
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Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2006, 19:10:41 pm »
Well after going to bed at 6pm last night Zander woke for a feed at 4am.  He's woken at this time for the past 2 days so if he does it again tonight I should probably treat it as a habitual waking and attempt wake to sleep (yikes!).  He takes a full feed but of course he would when he hasn't eaten since the night before - doesn't mean he couldn't go a little longer!  For the past couple of nights I've given him a bottle of EBM as a DF because he will take it asleep lying in his hammock.  If I get him up for a BF it disturbs his sleep too much, not like when he was little which was sooo much easier!  It hasn't helped with the night wakings and I can't do it tonight because I wasn't able to express enough today - unless I try again in a minute but don't usually have any success in the evenings.

Anyway I digress, the rest of the day went like this;

Wake 7.45am (I had every intention of getting him up at 7am  :-[ )
Eat 8am
Sleep 9.30am

Wake 10.15am (happy)
Eat 12pm
Sleep 12.30pm (did try to get him down earlier but he was happy and uninterested in sleep)

Wake 1.15pm (happy)
Sleep 3.30pm
Wake / Eat 4pm

Eat / Sleep 7pm (very cranky as you can imagine but wouldn't take another nap)

So all in all it was a disaster!  He's waking up from his short naps happy no matter what time I put him down but is very tired towards the end of the day due to the general lack of sleep.  I know he slept alot last night but I figured he needed it after only having 1 or 2 hours napping yesterday.  Any suggestions?!

Thanks again
Kelly x

Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2006, 23:48:32 pm »
did he wake after the 3rd nap by himself? maybe either a) stretch the A time between 1:15-3:30 so that it is an A time of 2hrs and 30/45 mins or b) try wake to sleep with naps....go in at the 25-30min mark and gently stir but not too much to wake totally (just on the first two naps)...if you can get at least one good hour to hour and a 1/2 nap then I wouldn't stress too much over the rest of the day.  Overall you day doesn't look that bad....just a little long by the end of the day for A time so maybe if you can stretch out the last A time before his catnap then he'll maybe go a smidge longer for a nap or at least maybe not be as tired for bed.  he did sleep a lot in total yesterday about 16 hours....so that is super good! :D  you are doing alot better then you think!!  ;) ;D Keep me posted!
Micky
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Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2006, 11:45:32 am »
Hi

Thanks for the encouragement but I don't think we're doing very well at all  :(  What we did yesterday wasn't EASY at all (ie. 2 naps and a catnap) it was just as many catnaps as I could get out of him to see us through until bedtime.  I just tried wake to sleep with his nap but he went from fast asleep to wide awake and crying - it just doesn't seem to work with him since he got older as he's a light sleeper and it made us both cry.  Mind you, I did get him to go back to sleep with PU/PD so I may get a long nap out of him in a roundabout sort of way!

This morning he woke at 6.30am (after waking for a 3am feed despite having a DF at 11pm) and I put him down for his nap at 8.15am.  It seemed to be perfect timing because he shut his eyes and went straight to sleep without any crying or fussing so I had high hopes for a long nap but it wasn't to be.  I re-read some of the book last night and it said if your LO is fussing and you change the activity for them and they're still fussing you should put them straight down and this is what I did.  So should I let him fuss for another 15 minutes tomorrow to try and extend his A time to get a long nap?

I'm feeling really low about this whole sleeping issue at the moment and am starting to think EASY doesn't suit Zander.  There's another baby author whose books are very popular and although I don't agree with any of her philosophies on babies as I think she's far too strict and doesn't advocate listening to your baby the routine she suggests involves a 40 minute sleep at 9am and a long 2 hour lunchtime sleep with a catnap in the afternoon.  I'm starting to wonder whether we should try this and feel very cross with myself for even considering reading another book which is just madness!

And now he's crying again .....

Kelly x
Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline Mom to M&M

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2006, 12:38:41 pm »
Hi Kelly.

Marisa recently had a few days like this. Then yesterday and the day before I got her to take 2x1.5 hour naps and one 30-40 min catnap. What I did differently was SLIGHTLY extend A times (but only by like 5-10 minutes) and change her wind down routine. She's textbook/spirited and I think needs a bigger transition from activity to sleep. So now we spend the last 15 minutes of A time in her dimmed bedroom. We have a small topping (whatever is left from bottle - usually an ounce or less) and then she sits in her recliner seat and watches the ceiling fan and hugs her Teddy for a minute or two. Then we read one story and I get her into sleep sack and we sing a lullaby and she's into crib.

She's now at 2 hours before morning nap, 2:10 before afternoon nap and 2:15 before catnap. That's all including wind down but BEFORE I get her into crib - she takes about 10 minutes to fall asleep with some minor fussing and talking and rolling once in there. She's almost 6 months.

In your case, is Zander waking happy, even temporarily, after the short naps? Marisa was - hence why it was impossible to get her back to sleep. However, 30-40 minutes later she'd be a cranky fussy mess from too little sleep.

What is your current wind down routine?

You could always try that "other" book but I do have friends that had a bear of a time with it. They had way overtired little ones and had terrible times getting the down for the long afternoon nap and for bedtime since they were so overtired. It might work with an angel or textbook baby, but otherwise...
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2006, 13:06:54 pm »
Thanks so much for your reply.  Zander does wake up happy from his naps (even if he doesn't stay that way for the whole of his next A time) which really is why I can't get him back to sleep with PU/PD but sometimes I feel as though I'm already pushing his A times so that leaves nowhere to go!  So this morning 1hr 45mins was too little I think - tomorrow I'll try closer to 2 hours and maybe once I get the A time sorted in the morning I'll find the right time for the afternoon (for the time being anyway, until he decides to shift the goalposts!!). 

Zander's only recently started 'letting' us have a wind-down routine at all, he went through a phase of not liking cuddles - how strange is that?  Now we go up to his room and I put him in his Grobag and we cuddle and listen to his white noise for a few minutes before I put him down then he goes to sleep straight away.

You're right of course about 'that other book' - I'm just feeling desperate for answers!

Kelly xx
Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2006, 13:35:08 pm »
Also - if we don't give DD enough physical activity during A times her naps suffer. So we try to do at least 15-20 minutes of floor time and 10-15 minutes in exersaucer each A time if possible and that seems to help. DD is rolling a lot and trying to creep so it really tires her out nicely.
Karen: Proud Mama to Marisa (8-11-05) and Matthew (6-5-09) and happily married to my best friend and love of my life since 10-13-01

Offline Luke-n-Me

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2006, 15:09:44 pm »
Kelly,

I by no  means have read the "other book" or really know much about it beyond how strict it is and what she recommends for nap routines, but I will tell you this, I have come to terms with the fact that Annika is likely going to keep that 45 minute a.m. nap a long p.m. nap and another 45 minute nap later.  That's just pretty much what she's always done.  I know other mom's on here who's lo's follow the same pattern.  It's not ideal and we drive ourselves crazy with it because we have read about that awful "45-minute monster", but truly, if you get 1 decent nap on a regular basis (and hopefully it will become more regular, Annika has become more regular in just the last week with this schedule) then that's great. 

When I look back, though we've had lots of all 45-minute nap days, all-in-all, Annika has always had the 45 min. a.m. nap and a longer p.m. nap with another 45-minute nap.  I really prefer my son's old nap schedule with a 2 hr. a.m. nap and 1.5 hr p.m. nap, but apparently that's not going to happen for her.  Work toward the one longer nap and  hopefully things will become more regular. 

One thing I can tell you I did, when Annika began to wake from naps happy, I had her lay in her crib until she had been there at least an hour, then I would go get her.  Then, for her p.m. nap, she again woke happy and I just let her talk to herself and sometimes it took 40-45 minutes, but she went back to sleep and now that nap has become more regular.  Just something to think about.  Hoping you have a  better day today! :)
Nancy

Luke (4-2-03)
Annika (8-30-05)

Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2006, 04:58:16 am »
big (((((((((HUGS))))))))) to you!  :(  It's so hard when these lo's don't do what we want them to do... ;) :)  I went back to look at the notes I took when Jackson was this age. ::)  He would be able to only do 1hr 45 min (sometimes 2hrs) in the am then by afternoon he was way too tired to make it past 1hr 35min.  We were trying to transition him to 4hr Easy and so there were a lot of days where half of his nap time I spent doing PU/PD!  ::)  It was sooooo tiring!!  Jackson was for sure still having 3 naps plus a catnap a day at Zanders age. By having a windown routine...it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to sit and snuggle with him.  Just that you do the same thing every time so they know what is coming next.  So for example, our windown routine when Jackson was younger and needed a longer windown was: brush his teeth, change his bum, put on a warm sweater, read a book, give him his lovey, turn out the lights and sing him itsy-bitsy spider, put him in his crib saying the same thing "have a good sleep, I love you, I'll come get you when you wake up".  The whole windown was about 15-20 min long but after a couple weeks of consistently doing the same thing, he started falling asleep as soon as you sit in the chair with him.  Now our winddown is changing his bum, sitting in the chair, giving him his lovey, turnigni out the lights and singing to him. It takes me about 5 min now to get him to his crib. 

Do you think you may be going to him too soon once he wakes?  I found that every now and again that if I left Jackson to talk to himself he would fall back to sleep.  Maybe you are rushing in and he is waking because he knows you will be in shortly? ??? Just a thought.  I would leave Jackson in his crib until he started to complain then get him up.
Micky
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Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2006, 12:15:26 pm »
Thanks for your help again.

This morning Zander went down for his first nap after 2 hours and had a 1hr15 nap - yipeeeeee!  He's just gone down for his second nap after 2hr15 but of course I'm not so fussed if he wakes from this one early because we've already had a good nap today (I went back to bed too!).  This afternoon we're going to Tiny Talk (similar to Sing and Sign) so that should wear him out nicely too.

I definitely don't go to Zander too early.  When he wakes up if he's not crying I leave him and sometimes it's a good 15 to 20 minutes before he really cries out and then I go to him.  He never falls back asleep once he's up - not once has he done that!

He still woke a couple of times during the night but I can live with that.

I'll let you know how the rest of the day goes.

Kelly xx
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Offline KellyC

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2006, 13:33:19 pm »
Hi guys

I just wanted to come on here to thank you all for your advice a couple of weeks ago and to give you an update.

I took your advice about getting one good nap a day and for the last 3 days we've done something very close to this;

E 6.30
S 8.30 - 9.15

E 10.30
S 11.30 - 13.45 (wow!)

E 14.30
S 16.00 - 16.45

E 18.00 (I was feeding Zander at 19.00 right before bed but he was tired and I don't think he fed properly)
S 18.45 - 19.00

DF 22.30 - 23.00 (I'm going to bring this forward to 22.00 tonight as he keeps waking before his DF)

On Monday Zander had a 2hr 15mins nap without my help but yesterday and today he woke after 45 minutes.  I'm finding it fairly easy to get him back down with PU/PD then he continues and has a lovely long nap.  It seems to be working really well and I'm loving having some more predictability in our lives!

He's still waking up during the night for a feed and I figure he's had a growth spurt at some point but instead of getting the extra calories during the day he's become used to getting them at night.  I can't get him to BF for any longer during the day, he just isn't interested.  So for the next 3 days I'm doing what Tracy suggests in her book and I'm pumping one hour after each feed then using that ounce or 2 to top him up after the next feed.  I'm also expressing a full 4 or 5 ounces whilst I give Zander the first feed of the day and at his DF I give him this bottle and then a BF.  Hopefully by the weekend we'll be able to rule out hunger as my milk supply will have increased and because Zander has learnt the art of falling asleep himself courtesy of pat/shush and PU/PD we might start getting him sleeping through the night again.  Wish us luck!

Kelly xx
Mummy to Zander (2005), Nathaniel (2007) and Caleb (2009)


Offline Luke-n-Me

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2006, 15:20:10 pm »
Sounds like maybe Zander is falling into the same routine as Annika, good luck and hope it continues!
Nancy

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Annika (8-30-05)

Offline mickymuscles

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Re: Help us with our routine please!
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2006, 18:20:31 pm »
Yeah Kelly!
Sounds like your hard work has started to pay off!  Keep up the good work!
 ;)
Micky
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