need advice for 3 wk old even though I know the theory

[Stacie:Emma&Josh Mom]

I have read tons of posts and stickies and still have a question.  I am actually having the oppositye problem as the other 3 week old post I found...what do you do if your lo takes 45 mins or more to eat???  He's often sleepy during feedings as well so does that even ciount as A time?  I know it does cause he's semi-awake, but after he's fed, burped, changed (sometimes btwn sides to hope he stys asleep after 2nd side), he'll wake up and act like he's not sleepy anymore.  Do I put him right back down for a nap since it's been so long???  I've tried various times of putting him down i.e. right after feed, after a few mins, after 20 or 30 mins and it's near impossible no matter when unless he's exhausted and doesn't wake during burping.  We're also wondering if we're dealing with gassiness (I know for sure sometimes it is cause he'll calm after passing it -- and we are using gas drops) or if it's overtiredness (VERY likely) or if he's hungry again cause it's been 2 hours and he hasn't slept!!!  This is discouraging me sice bfing is going so well this time and I'm worried about wearing out my nipples!  (they're sore from feeding every 2.5-3 hrs already even though I'm sure the latch is good)  I just need to get this kid to nap!!  He was so sleepy for awhile and I guess he's starting to wake up some???  But I also read that awake time should still be about 45 mins to an hour at the most...but what if that's all eating time?  Straight back down?  And what do you do for wind down?? He's in the pack n play in our room right now and I'm wondering if he'd nap better in his crib in his own room (I have a 2 year old as well who's not exactly quiet...I just thought he was still in newborn sleepy phase and it wouldn't bother him yet, but maybe it is?)  I also thought keeping him out with us during the day would help distinguish day from night but I'm thinking that's backfiring now (we had some issues at first, but he's been better going back to sleep at night now so maybe he's got the day/night worked out and needs his naps in his crib...if I could get him to sleep that is.)  I'm also worried about props, but at this point, anything to get him to sleep would be good to get him rested.  I was trying to give him some A time to ensure daytime vs night but now I just want him to sleep.  HELP! 

[Deb_in_oz]

what do you do if your lo takes 45 mins or more to eat???  He's often sleepy during feedings as well so does that even ciount as A time?  I know it does cause he's semi-awake, but after he's fed, burped, changed (sometimes btwn sides to hope he stys asleep after 2nd side), he'll wake up and act like he's not sleepy anymore.  Do I put him right back down for a nap since it's been so long??? 

there are several issues right here. 1st i would have someone (a LC if possible) check the latch just to make sure he is on there right as i woudl hate to think that your poor nipples are getting sore still, also just to rule out that as a problem.  2nd make sure he is actively sucking all that time - or is he comfort sucking after a while, dozing on and off etc. if he is comfort sucking break the latch and burp him, wake him up a little then. if he is dozing a lot during the feed and that is why he takes so long I would wait to start the feed until you have him fully awake - maybe take him outside into sunlight for a minute or a brighter room and chat to him for a minute/sing a nursery rhyme... but make sure he is AWAKE for as much of the feed as possible. besides dragging out the feed time, the dozing sounds more like napping and that woudl be why he suddenly is wide awake at the end of the feeds. [ i would seek some more support and advice on the Bf board as i cannot remember much of the 3 week stage and suspect that 45 min+ is a LONG feed time so think they woudl have some input]

when you get the feed time reduced, i would also suggest moving the nappy change to the end of the feed to try to get in the habit of him being awake but drowsy when you put him down, rather than encouraging him to go straight fromt he 2nd side to bed asleep.

But I also read that awake time should still be about 45 mins to an hour at the most...but what if that's all eating time?  Straight back down?  And what do you do for wind down??

at 3 weeks A time can be as short as just feed time and then straight back to bed with the only wind down (so to speak) being a nappy change/burping.  if you get the feed time (active feeding) down a little you may find you do feed + 5 min A time (can be as little as a cuddle, song or just chatting to him) + change and then to bed all in under 45 min. if the feeds are still long just put him down to bed after the feed + change if he is ready.

He's in the pack n play in our room right now and I'm wondering if he'd nap better in his crib in his own room (I have a 2 year old as well who's not exactly quiet...I just thought he was still in newborn sleepy phase and it wouldn't bother him yet, but maybe it is?)  I also thought keeping him out with us during the day would help distinguish day from night but I'm thinking that's backfiring now (we had some issues at first, but he's been better going back to sleep at night now so maybe he's got the day/night worked out and needs his naps in his crib...if I could get him to sleep that is.)  I'm also worried about props, but at this point, anything to get him to sleep would be good to get him rested.  I was trying to give him some A time to ensure daytime vs night but now I just want him to sleep.  HELP! 

to help distinguih day from night all that is really required is that DAYTIME = lights on during feeds / no feeding in their sleep if not medically required, you are engaging / make eye contact during A time etc whereas at NIGHT = feeds are in darkened/dim lit room, no eye contact, straight back to bed, NO "A" time. this is usually all that is needed to get it established.  you can add in a special greeting after overnight sleep / opening curtains etc and naps so that you distinguish the next A period etc,  but that is not even needed for many babies.  if he has his own room and you think it will be easier to settle him there i woudl try it - whatever room will be quietest and darkest for naps will be the best choice. Don't worry about making sure there is A time at this stage - if you make eye contact during feeds and nappy change - maybe chat a little or coo, etc he will know that it is different than when you feed him at night which is all business and no fun and games KWIM

I hope some of that answers your questions. i know you were nervouse about the BF this time around and definitely think you woudl benefit from a session or 2 with a LC if you can manage it (i certainly wish i had tried that route 2nd time around), but there is also some great support on the BF board!!! it is still early days so just focus on getting him down for naps - if that means no A time and watching his sucking to know when to stop the feed, then that is what is needed.

[First Time Mom]

I'm no expert but from my own experience my lo had her own pattern for the first 4 weeks- sleep all day, wake all night. Feeding took 45 minutes (I feed on both sides) as she was sooo sleepy and she wanted to feed at short intervals. She had extreme gas and would not burp too well. I fed on demand for 4 weeks and the 5th week is when I saw a change in her sleep (woke more in day- slept more in night) this was when I was able to go to 2.5-3 hour feeds. I had a difficult time with bfeeding but it got easier every week and by week 5 we were pros at it. A time at 3 weeks was feed and diaper change, I tried singing, dancing, playing with her and this irritated her greatly so I cut most of it out until 4-5 weeks. She was the queen of prop-needing babies- paci, my finger, slight rocking, and water rushing out from the tap. Now, at 11 weeks she sometimes uses her paci but the others are gone. I would not worry at three weeks of age about props. I think, unless you have an angel or textbook baby, you need to follow their cues for the first few weeks trying to use the pattern of EASY but with their own timelines.   

[Stacie:Emma&Josh Mom]

Well I feel a bit better after your posts and some posts on the bf board.  Debra-thank you for the detailed answer.  Definitely helpful and a confidence booster.  Basically, 45 mins is too long, though I read over and over in books that it's okay to go that long in the early days...I definitely don't think he's eating that whole time and think I just needed someone to reasure me that it's okay to stop him.  He definitely eats for awhile and then dozes and eats for awhile so my first goal (which I did last night and this morning) is to figure out when he's eating and when he's not.  Much easier to do without the toddler around so I did it last night and this morning and now dd is off to school and then a nap when she gets home so I've got all morning/afternoon to keep paying attn without too many distractions.  I honestly think our latch is okay and that my nipples are just sore from all the sucking!  45 mins is a lot of sucking especially if he's not getting much and just sucking for comfort.  I was much better when he was eating in 15 mins a side 2 weeks ago so I'm gonna wait on the LC and just hold him off from eating every 2 hours.  Try to stretch him to 2 1/2 atleast.  He's definitely awake when he starts and eats for awhile and then I guess I'm just worried he's still eating when he's really just snacking and dozing after that.  Thanks for the confidence booster.  Right now I'm having some success at getting him down for a nap and had some success last evening so I think I just needed a pep talk.  I'm just so not wanting to create any bad habits from the beginning if possible.  We rocked dd for 4 months before we got her out of that and I'd rather get it right the first time around than have to wean ds from anything if possible.  Oh and his nappy change is in between sides at night only, not during the day.  I change him after both sides during the day and will give him a short A time now that I know he's overtired most times (if he eats fairly quickly of course).  Thank you ladies for the support.   

[Deb_in_oz]

That's great Stacie - keep it up. i definitely think it is best to "start as you mean to go" 4 mo of rocking would not be fun - especially if it turned into 7 mo    I understand about needing permission to end the feed - when Alex hit her 3 mo growth spurt (i remember it vividly) she started having these HUGE feeds before bedtime- she would be on both breasts for about 30min each and it quickly turned from GS to habit and at 4 mo i was still allowing these super long feeds (right form month 1 she had been efficient and never fed for more than 10 min and had huge weight gains....so i shoudl have known)  It took Dh calling me on it after a month of this to finally get me to realize she was doing it for comfort and it had to stop - we were losing our evenings to an hour or more of feeds ...

glad we could help build your confidence as that is a big part of success (things went downhill for me with Liv once i lost confidence...)! keep coming back for an extra dose of support whenever you need it