Desperately need advice about night feeds

[josie k]

I have just started my 13 week old son on the easy routine and we are having our ups and downs. The main motivation for me wanting to structure his day is because he is no where close to sleeping through the night and sleeps no more than 2-3hrs at night, constantly feeding. Having read Tracy's third book i understand i possibly need to increase his food intake during the day, 'tank him up' at night and structure his naps, all of which i am trying to implement, so i am feeling fairly despondent a week later to see absolutely no difference to his nights. I also realise i have most likely started bad habits using my breast as a prop to get him back to sleep and until now has been a snack feeder and a catnapper. Although his night waking is habitual his waking seems to be exactly on his feeding schedule as he takes a 15min feed, although he does only feed from one side during the night as -of course- is fast asleep until 2hrs later.If his dream feed is earlier or later he still wakes on cue accordingly.I can't actually see the point in giving him a DF as he wakes me all night anyway.I am also really struggling getting him to take his afternoon and late afternoon naps without epic tantrums as of course he has always fallen to sleep on the breast or rocked in my dh arms or the car. He takes the 'usual' one sleep cycle 45min naps three times a day if im lucky, but maybe i have to except the fact he just isn't a 'sleepy' baby as he seems able to stay awake, no problem, for 2hrs at a stretch in the day and shows very little signs of fatigue. (or am i misreading his cues- as a spirited baby he descends very quickly into these tantrums). I am so desperate to extend his naps however as i am convinced overtiredness one of the problems. He was 9lb when he was born and is around 15lb now so i feel there is no excuse for all of these night disruptions! I am also confused whether to put him onto the four hour routine as he is nearing four months, perhaps this is the problem, but cutting out his night feeds for him, cold turkey, seems a rather ruthless option and am very reluctant to do this. Anyway would appreciate any, any advice from any one.

[Katet]

My first thought is the 45min naps are due to him being awake too long for a spirited baby 1 hour may actually be his awake time even at nearly 4mo. 45min naps are mostly due to too long or too short awake time & 2 hours is very much too long. Also some spirited babies show their tired signs when they are really "overtired" so try starting a wind down at about 50mins & see how that goes.
Also make sure your lo ISN'T falling asleep feeding at the beginning of the night as that will 100% ensure you get woken many times a night.
I would stick to a 3hour EASY until you at least see some improvements in naps & are getting your lo to fall asleep independently at the start of the night
Both my ds's were over 22lb at 6months & still needed a night feed most nights up until 9months with my first & still a 5.30am with ds#2
 Ds#1 also was feeding every 2-3 hours at 3mo & he weighed close to 18lb then so to me size doesn't mean an awful lot in their ability to sleep, infact I think bigger babies need more, rather than can go longer.

[annamum]

I also wanted to add that your son is not different from many other babies. Unfortunately, many breastfed babies do wake up that often in the night, sometimes there is very little you can do about it at the beginning. Some are very bad sleepers, especially when they are spirited. My dd was doing exactly the same thing, she was a bad napper, didn't show tired signs till she was overtired and woke every 2 or 2.5 hours at night. No matter how much I tanked her up before night, with dreamfeeds or without, she was waking at random times throughout the night.

I agree with Kate, work on naps and feeding and give yourself and him time. Changing so much in his life can also play a havoc and you need time and consistency to see results. I don't advice you to stop nursing him at night cold turkey. Most babies, even big ones, still need a feed or even two well into a second half of the first year, sorry to tell you that . If he is taking a full feed at night then he obviously needs it still at that point.

With a spirited baby you will need a lot of wind down time, consistency consistency and patience. They usually fight sleep with a surprizing strength. My dd, now 2 years old is still trying to avoid sleep, even when she is falling asleep she won't admit she is sleepy .

[anna and adam]

At around 3.5-4 months we were exactly where you are- and absolutely exhausted. Naps became shorter and shorter, exactly 30 minutes each in the end. I did not dreamfeed at this point since it seemed crazy for me to wake him up as well. This is when I started to read Tracy's book obsessively and have done since! I found that he was having many quick feeds during the night and then loosing interest in proper feeds during the day. Moving to the 4 hour routine changed everything within days. Now he was getting enough food during the day he was easy to settle at night without food, something that would have seemed impossible only days (nights) earlier. Teaching baby how to fall asleep without a prop may be a separate issue, but if daytime feeds are short or difficult, a change to 4 hours may do the trick, it did for us. Naps remained a problem for us until recently when I realised his bedroom should probably be really really dark... Good luck.

[daisymelan]

Hang in there.  A lot of the mamas have offered great advice.  It will take a little while to break all the habits, but it has worked for many many babies.  We didn't wake up our little one that early in the game for a dream feed either.  But eventually we could implement it once everything else got on track.... adn it was easier to feed at 11 instead of waking up at 4am.

I don't think going to a 4 hour EASY will necessarily work....  at that age my son was still doing a 2.5 to 3 hour EASY, although he wans't as big as your lo. 

One other little thing.  When you feed your little one at night, do you feed just until they fall back asleep or do you do a full feed?  If you ensure they are getting a full one, they may sleep a little bit longer. 

I know it's tough right now, but stick to it!  You sound like you're workign really hard for both you and your lo.

GOod luck and keep us posted.

[josie k]

Thanks for the advice and support it really is invaluable. Last night was a pretty good night really just a 11.00 and 3.30am feed! He woke at 5.30 though ready to play but i shush patted him back to sleep untill 6.30 which isn't so ungodly!

Well i think i need to accept he still needs night feeds and this is pretty normal, it's just i felt that i was the only woman in the world to be going through this at the moment as my NCT friends often say how they're lo's are sleeping the full stretch! I often can't get him to take a 'full feed' in the middle of the night as he's unwakable after one breast, but i know he'll be awake sooner for the other half, which of course he does.

Putting him down for naps is still a real ordeal...but i can't stop now as to put him through this is just mean to not see it through, hopefully it will get easier. He loves his bath and bedtime routine though, no problems there, and it's so nice to have my evenings back-so i can do things like this!I'm hoping to swap him to a four hour routine in a few weeks and perhaps that will make a difference.

Thanks again for all the good advice.

[daisymelan]

 

So happy to hear your good news!  That is aboslutely wonderful.  Thanks for keeping us posted.  For what it's worth, my son really let me know when he was ready to swithc to a 4 hour EASY...  He just started having much longer A periods. 

Sounds like you are doing a wonderful job.... and isn't it great to have those nights?  I remember thinking the same thing when I started BW.

[josie k]

Hi
So, it's been over a week now of easy and of course there have been good and bad days. Many times over the past week i have felt like i cannot face another epic tantrum when it is time for his nap and another one 45minutes later when he wakes early, but when i put him in his cot and he puts himslf to sleep, as he has done a number of times now,i really enjoy feeling like a success as a parent.

I do have some questions though. Of course my 14 week son doesn't always conform exactly to the times Tracy has prescribed, (however he does more or less) but If he wakes up early from his naps and i cannot put him back down to sleep using the shush pat method for the remainder of his nap time, usually another 45minutes left, do i put him back down for another nap approx 1hour 20minutes later from the time he woke, as this is when he will tired again, which will throw off the routine for the rest of the day, OR do i put him down at the next prescibed 'slot', when more than likely he'll be overtired and will be harder to settle?

I am however sticking to the feeding times but by changing his nap times by putting him down earlier say, he ends up being fed before he is supposed to sleep, which is a habit i am obviously trying to break.??

I feel trying to extend his nap times is the answer to these issues but this is easier said than done. Often he won't fall back to sleep and it ends up being the next feed time and i feel i have put him through all of the anguish with no end result of sleep. But i'm sure Tracy would tell me not to get into the 'poor baby' way of thinknig and this is how a successful routine is established...

Also he is waking at the moment for 2 ish and 5 ish for his night feeds and because he feeds so early in the morning he isn't interested in the 7.00am feed. Again, do i feed him at 8.00 when he is ready or wait until the next exact feeding slot at 10.00- if he will wait that long at all, being five hours since he last had a feed.

I did manage to get him to have a full df last night and he slept through till 2.30 which was pretty good.
Anyway i would really appreciate any advice on these issues, but on the whole things are hmmm-better!

Thank you
Josie K

[daisymelan]

Hi Josie,

Many times over the past week i have felt like i cannot face another epic tantrum when it is time for his nap and another one 45minutes later when he wakes early, but when i put him in his cot and he puts himslf to sleep, as he has done a number of times now,i really enjoy feeling like a success as a parent.

That makes everything worth it.  You should feel very proud of yourself.  And good job getting down to two night feeds, I think you will find implementing the df very worth it.

I really don't know if I am able to answer your questions, you may have better luck in the sleep forum, but I will do my best at your nursing questions.

Is your lo on a 3 or 4 hr EASY?  You ask about moving times around, but I think the premise of EASY should allow you the flexibility to follow your little ones routine.  As long as you are E,A,S just follow your los cues.  This should eliminate the need to feed you lo before they sleep.  This is one of the largest props I believe BFing mamas face.  If your little one is tired early on and is napping well (more than 45 minutes) then let them go to a shorter EASY routine. 

In regards to the morning, my personal opinion is to give a full feed at 7, even if he isn't that hungry.  As you said, it will throw off your dya if you don't.  If this is not possible, I'm not too sure....  would your lo sleep longer than 7?  Maybe if they were still sleepy and would sleep until 8, you would solve the situaiton.  It would push eveyrthing back one hourish.  Anyone else.. please feel free to make your own suggestion here.

Hope this helps.  Please let me know if you wanted something else specifically.

[josie k]

Thanks again for your help! My lo is on the 3hour easy but at 14 weeks i hope to get him on the four hour pretty soon.

You mentioned maybe getting him to sleep a little later so i can keep more on track, however i am struggling to get him to sleep past 5.30am at the mo! I am thinking moving his bedtime back a little later may get a longer night out of him.? I am getting used to my days largely consisting of darkness now!

I think you are right, to try not to worry to much about the exact easy times but to follow his cues and stick to the EAS.


I do however have a breast feeding question. My lo is so used to feeding a little but often during the night (which is my fault for not recognising his need to suck and his need to feed in the early weeks) which has- i think- ultimately lead to him being windy, colicky and very often sick...Last night he was even sick in his cot.

If he does still want to feed often at night every 2 - 2.5 hours, which he still does, shall i not feed him, as is making the colic problem worse and perhaps offer water instead? Also i think if i give him another DF at around 4.00 instead of 5.00 this should make him interested in his 7.00am feed again no?

Thanks again

[daisymelan]

I know you mentioned before that your lo doesn't take a full feed at night.  Is it possible to maybe give a nappy change inbetween breasts so that he takes more of a feed.  Or how about trying breast compressions to stimulate more sucking when he starts to drift off.  The fuller his tummy, in theory, the longer he may go at night. 

I wouldn't cut out the night feeds, especially when your lo is used to them.  I think it's just a too young to expect him to deal wtih such a large drastic change.  I would work more at extending the time between the feeds.  If your lo is just looking to suck, is it possible you could use a paci to extend the time at night? 

And you are right about the feed at 4 instead of 5.  That would certainly work.  I'm not sure how many feeds you are doing at night, but I think the ultimate goal would be to keep extending the time inbetween. 

I also had to move my los bedtime back, so that may work for you also. 

Sounds like you're working really hard and doing a great job.