4mo waking every 2.5 hrs

[M&M's Ima]

So, since 2months, ds was an angel at night, waking at 5 no matter when he went to sleep. then we mixed him up, taking him to the States for a week, and he was sick or had a cold for two weeks when we got home. it took about two weeks to get over jetlag, and now, 3-4 weeks later, he's definatly not down to his one wake up.
bedtime is around 6:30, and he's very tired by then, as he has to wait a little (sometimes a lot) for his brother's routine before his. He will then wake up 40 min later to nurse, and easily goes back to sleep. (if he fell asleep after 7, he may skip this wake-up). then he pretty much wakes every 2.5-3 hours til 5:30or 6 when he's up for the morning. (very short wake time then til first nap.)

I don't have much of a different routine for bedtime than for naptime. is this something i should work on?
how can i tell if these wake ups are hunger, habit, or something else?
they are not the same time each night.
his crib is in my room. i heard that could make him wake up more? like he smells milk, or something?

thanks in advance

[LŠuren]

can u post your routine?

Also what weight is your LO?
Bottle or breastfed, if bottle how many oz does your LO take in the day?

If they wake up times are different each night it tends to suggest hunger rather than habit. I have gone through this recently for a period of 2 weeks, waking every 20mins - 2hrs, then it suddenly stopped and I was back to a feed between 4- 5am.

Let me know and I can try work something out 

[M&M's Ima]

That's actually a really hard assignment, cuz our routine is soo variable.
Lately he's been waking up between 5:30 and 6:30, then back down between 7 and 8, though sometimes if he wakes up before I'm ready to start the day, he lies beside me for about half an hour and then I nurse him back to sleep. That sleep is variable in length, and I don't know if it counts as a nap, or what.
I'll give an example of a schedule so you don't have to read through my rambling like this about the whole day.

6 wakes (E)
7:30 S
this nap is usually an hour and half, but sometimes an hour.
9 awake
11-1 S
around 3 S. Now this nap could be anywhere from 40 min to an hour and 3/4. If it's 40, I'll try to give him another.
He has to wait for big ds's bedtime before his, so around 6:30 I start putting the baby to bed. By this time, he's always been waiting too long.

So he always has an early morning nap, a late morning nap, and an afternoon one. the afternoon one is always too early, and he's way tired by bedtime. usually he'll have two naps of at least an hour, hopefully one of them being closer to two, and then a 40-60 min. sometimes he'll get two good ones and two 40 minutes. how many times i can put him down in the afternoon also depends on big brother playing by himself.

also, we're doing pupd for bedtimes, so that could take any amount of time.

I'm not sure how much he weighs right now, but he's pretty chubby, and wearing 6-9 mo clothes. (everyone tells me he's big for 4 months.) sorry to be so unhelpful.
I'm only nursing. Oh - so that's another thing. We're so far off EASY right now, that I'm nursing him all the time. It's part of our naptime routine, so it's not like I'm waiting 3-4 hours til he's hungry. I nurse him before he goes to bed, and when he wakes up, so i never know if he's hungry. i think he's not used to taking as much each time as he should. but i don't know if that should effect the night? I nursed my first all the time, and he still woke up only once from 2 - 9 months, then not at all.

thanks so much for your time and help!!
any advice on getting onto EASY and taking nursing out of our bedtime routine?

[M&M's Ima]

hi, I'm still hoping for some replies to this! thanks!

[LŠuren]

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, Calum has been playing up in the early mornings....

Just had a look at your typical day routine and you are getting there with bits of it and not others. The main thing we need to work on is getting the DAY routing sorted so DS is feeding every 4hrs and napping well throughout the day, the nights should fall into place. I had re-read a bit of BW solves all your problems and she is pretty clear that if they are not on a 4hr EASY by at least 4 months then night waking, etc are made worse.

Firstly can you tell me how often you are feeding him and if this has always been the case or just since your holiday, cold, etc? He sounds like he is a snacker.  When does he get fed again after 6am?

Secondly his 1st nap quite early, is it possible for you to gradually stretch it so he has been awake 2 hours - do you want him to be waking up at 6am every morning, if not you should treat this as a night feed and use PU/PD to get him back to sleep. His 2nd nap needs to be for a longer period than 40mins and again PU/PD should be used to gradually extend this.  My DS needs a capnap a couple of hours before bed time, although he goes to bed at 8 - 8.30pm, it means he is not overtired. Can you post your wind down routine for bedtime? It sounds like he is in dire need of a catnap late afternoon.  Also the reason that he is waking 40mins after you put him to bed (I hope I understood that right) is because he is overtire when you finally get him down.

Take a log of the times he goes through EASY for a week or so, this will let you see when you have managed to extend time between feeds and naps.

"his crib is in my room. i heard that could make him wake up more? like he smells milk, or something?"   - this leads me to my next point, how quickly do you got to him when hear him? I may be he now does it because he knows you will attend to him, it would be your own choice if move him from your room, however if you have a DH/DP then he may have more success putting him to sleep as he won't smell your milk.

I am probably bombarding you with information now... sorry!!

I have added my DS current routine for you to have a look at, its not perfect but it seems to work for us at the moment.

Our routine yesterday was:
Up @ 7.30am
E 0745   8oz
A0830
S0930 - 1100 (1hr 30min) - sometimes is up 3 hours before his first snooze
A1100
E1215   9oz
A1245
S1320 -1440 (1hr 20min)
A1440
             E 1500 peas + Potato with 1oz formula
A1515
E1615   8oz
A1630
S1700  (1hr 30 min catnap!) - earlier & longer than usual, prev catnaps are 30 - 45mins and have to wake him
A1830 - inc bath
E2000 2100!!   8oz
S2100 awake in cot, 10 mins to go to sleep on his own. (very late in bed due to long last feed)
he was a little unsettled in the first half of the night, think due to have solids too late in the day.

Please keep in touch either on this board or IM to let me know or ask questions x

[LŠuren]

this may be of some use

[M&M's Ima]

thanks tons for all that information. I'm going to have to watch his schedule more closely over the next few days. he definately is a snacker though. I got into this really badly because of nursing to sleep. 
before our trip (so between 2 and 3 months) he was eating every 3 hours or so.
now it's kind of hard to tell if he's tired or hungry sometimes, as he roots when he's tired too, but he does seem to be really ready to eat after two and a half hours. (I know i have enough milk. he doesn't even drain one side.)
I think perhaps part of this problem is that "foggy" time of morning where i'm denying that he's awake so early, so i keep nursing him, and I don't even know what time he really fed. So as soon as he wakes up, I guess I have to get up and be alert.
I don't think it's worth making him wake up later. ds1 gets up before 7 anyway, and crying with pupd would definately wake him up. I heard Spiriteds have early wake up times anyway. but i do have to get up right away in that case, to be on top of EASY.

Could I use those routines as guidelines, but bump them up and hour earlier? thanks for posting them.

I'm also confused about his A times. Sometimes he gets tired so quickly, but often if i don't get him to bed then, he'll "get over it" and be able to keep himself up pretty happily (though often needing more attention) for hours. This has happened if ds1 is having a bad day and won't give me enough time to get the lo to sleep.
here's today's schedule so far as an example of what i mean:
~5: E. I fell asleep with him in my bed.
6:30 woke up. Nursed him, but don't know if this was a "meal" or pacifying.
8:00 E
8:15 - 9:45 S
By 10:30 he was "kvetching" which has always meant he's tired, but when it comes that early it confuses me.
10:45 E
11-12  pu/pd with a break
12 S

I'll keep a log of the next few days.
I'd love to move him out of my room, and will do so as soon as he can fall asleep a little less dramatically.

Another factor at play, which I have mentioned, is that in the afternoon I can't always get him down, or do pupd if he wakes up too early, if it takes too long. It depends on big brother's mood!

ds will be home most of tomorrow and Sat. so ds's routine can be a little more ideal . (he can also help with pu pd!

thanks again for this help!

[LŠuren]

hiya - yes use the posted guideline routes and just change the times to suit you ,because your earlier - ultimately you are aim to get your LO on "THE GOAL" routine.

With his A times you just gradually need to stretch them day by day, by try to keep him up (easier said then done). Calum can stay up for 2 hours, this inc's his Feeding time. I just find it easier working it our like that. In other works from the time he wakes to has 1st nap is 2 hrs, then from when he wakes from 1st nap to start of 2nd nap is 2hrs.

I think the only way you are going to be able to tell if he is hungry or not is to get him eating at least every 3 hrs again then use the guidelines to increase over 2 weeks. I don't have much experience with b/feeding as I was only able to do it for a few weeks     You say he doesn't drain one side, is he distracted or just full because of the snacking - it may be worthwhile putting a post in the breastfeeding forum about how to stop this, as I am not sure - sorry and this is the key to gettin him back on track!

For the 2nd nap is there anyway you can go to him just before you think he will wake and lay a hand on him or try wake to sleep, if PU/PD is not convenient?

Keep taking a log of your day, I have a notebook I log my EASY (or not so EASY day in) we usually end up doing EASA throughout the day, so don't worry if you don't get it right all the time.

There I have bombarded you again xx

[tmartinez2]

Hi I have been having somewhat of the same problem with my four month old. He was sleeping about 6 to 7 hours without waking up and then about 2 weeks ago he wakes at 11 and then about ever 2 to 2.5 hours after that and I am not sure either if this is habit or if he is hungry. I am not sure how to get back to him sleep longer. I had been feeding him each time he woke as my doctor thought it might be hunger and then last night we tried feeding at 11 and then soothing back to sleep at 1 and then feed at 3 and sooth at 5.

Any advice would be great! how do i fade out these night wakings?

Thanks.

Theresa

[LŠuren]

Theresa, can u post your routine? This sounds like a growth spurt.

What weight is your DS?
Bottle or breastfed, if bottle how many oz does your LO take in the day?
How often do you feed him during the day? At 4 month you should be aiming for or on a 4 hour EASY.

If they wake up times are different each night it tends to suggest hunger rather than habit, however as your DS if 4months it will probably be a growth spurt and he is waking at night to compensate for not getting enough during the day.

Lauren

[tmartinez2]

Hi Lauren,

My four month old is about 15 lbs. 9 oz. He is breastfed. I just started him on rice cereal a couple of days ago. Here is my routine (keep in mind he is a spirited baby and tends not to nap consistantly) He is on the closest to a 4 hour EASY schedule that we can get for his tempermant - Mind you I only just read the BW about 2 weeks ago:

Eat - 7
A-7:30
S-8:30 (aim for 1 1/2 hr)
E- 11:00
A-11:30
S13:30 (aim for 1 1/2 hr)
E - 3:00
S - Catnap (aim for 1 hour)
E,A,S start bath at 6:30 asleep by 7:00
Dreamfeed around 11:00

A couple of questions is it really important for the dreamfeed that he be asleep and that I control the time? because he will naturally get up around that time.

As well if it is a growth spurt do I just feed during the night? How do I avoid this becoming a dependency on nursing at night?

Looking forward to hearing back! thanks.

theresa

[tmartinez2]

Another little note - the wakings don't seem to be the exact same time every night (close to though) but they are consistantly every 2 hours does that mean growth spurt or habitual??

Theresa

[LŠuren]

Theresa
Your routine looks really good 

A couple of things;

Does he wake at 7am? If so, can you try and gradually try and extend his first awake time to 2hrs so his first nap is not until 9am? I see he can do this in the afternoon.

What time is his catnap in the afternoon? I don't do a d/feed myself however you could possibly try d/f for 1030pm and it is my understanding they should be asleep.

When a LO is on a growth spurt the aim is to try and get his increase milk intake into him during the day and not at night, if you continue to feed frequently at night he will think this is the new routine. 

My LO is now approaching 5 months and he is very similar to this, although he has now dropped his catnap ( I only allowed 30 - 45 mins to refresh them for bath/bed) and I have had to bring his bedtime earlier.

Hope this helps x

[LŠuren]

theresa

have you thought about joining us in the Mums of Sep/Oct '05 babies... topic?

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=44815.0

you are welcome to join us! 

Lauren x

[tmartinez2]

THanks Lauren! I will definitely join the group of Sept/Oct babies. How is the best way to increase his intake during the day? Longer feeds? More frequent feeds?

So it is a growth spurt if he is taking the food at night?

This has been going on for about 3 weeks I am worried it may be becoming a routine - how would I get him out of this if it was?

Thanks so much you have been a big help!

Theresa

[tmartinez2]

About increasing his A time I am just a bit worried if for some reason he doesn't get a good length of a nap which can happend frequently then I am hesitant to keep him up for the 2 hours. If he doesn't get a good nap of at least 1 to 1 1/2 hours should I decrease the length of his A time or keep it at 2 hours?

Thanks!

Theresa

[LŠuren]

Theresa

"This has been going on for about 3 weeks I am worried it may be becoming a routine"

You have hit the nail on the head there. Longer feeds during the day, not more frequesnt as that will cause other problems. He will probably still want to get up during the night as it is now his routine. For this you will need pu/pd but only when you are positive he is no longer hungry.

How many times was he getting up for a night feed before?

[tmartinez2]

Previously he was getting up at around 2:00am and then sometimes at 5:00 but we were just about to start fading out the 5:00 feed when this happened. Now he is waking every 2 hours but we only try to feed at 11 and then around 3 or 4.

I tried feeding longer today but he just wouldn't take it - not sure if he is distracted (but i am in darkened quiet room) or just not hungry. I feel like he has his days and nights for feeds mixed up and I am not sure how to reverse it??

and doing PU/PD how can I be certain its not hunger?

Also any advice on the A time from my previous post?

Thanks so much.

Theresa

[LŠuren]

Looking at the routine you posted and specifically the sleeping, his days and nights are not mixed up, it seems like a growth spurt.    I currently don't breastfeed so it may even be worthwhile posting on the breastfeeding topic to ask how to get you LO to take more from you during a growth spurt.

The following links may help to explain why a longer A time is necessary.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52356.0


also this one
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=51944.msg360936#msg360936

A lot of the mums on the "Mums of Sep/Oct '05 babies...  " breastfeed so they may also be able to help you with that one.     
It certainly doesn't sound like he had switched night for day, only a growth spurt, especially for the age your LO is.

[M&M's Ima]

Hi,
sorry, i haven't had time to read all the posts here, so my post is gonna be pretty egocentric.

so i'm still watching his scheule, and trying not to feed him as often.
we had improvement last night with only two wake ups, though he did go to sleep two hours later than usual...

i'm now confused on two accounts, though:

first of all, i thought you're supposed to put a tired baby to sleep right away. you know - not miss his "window", not make him overtired cuz then he won't sleep as well,
so what's this about stretching his A time to two hours?

and also, if he wakes from a nice hour and a half nap, he won't fall asleep again if he isn't tired, no matter how much pupd i try. i mean, he just had a great nap! so how do we force our lo's into that ideal routine?

sorry. just don't really get it.

thanks

[LŠuren]

Hey , I thought you were doing your dishes and tiding 

first of all, i thought you're supposed to put a tired baby to sleep right away. you know - not miss his "window", not make him overtired cuz then he won't sleep as well,
so what's this about stretching his A time to two hours?

You need to do it maybe 15mins per day and build up to it.

and also, if he wakes from a nice hour and a half nap, he won't fall asleep again if he isn't tired, no matter how much pupd i try. i mean, he just had a great nap! so how do we force our lo's into that ideal routine?

If he wakes after 90mins nap and he is happy then I wouldn't try and get him back to sleep, I only do it with Calum if he wakes still tired and crying.

I know it is confusing, we tend to do a 4 hour EASA through out the day. How often are you need feeding during the day? 

Congratulations on only 2 night wakings it is way better then every 2.5hrs   

Catch you later, I am off to bed x

[M&M's Ima]

hi,
loggiing his day is really helping us tighten it into a routine.
it's actually going well, just by keeping the log, so thanks a lot.
i'm trying to nurse him a lot less, but i'm still nursing to sleep a lot. 

last night he slept a really nice stretch!

he really is able to go 2 hours between naps, and seems to need to nurse like 3 1/2 hours, about.

at what age does he stop needing that cat nap?
a few days this week he hasn't been able to get it for whatever reason. he seemed to usually do okay. yesterday he had no catnap, and a slightly later bedtime, but didn't wake up at his overtired forty minute mark.

thanks.

[LŠuren]

glkadyou are getting on better and that you have stretched feeds to 3 1/2hrs, the 4hr easy will come soon!

Calum has also started missing his catnap some days that has happened in the last week....  must be an age thing?