30 min naps Developmental or Too Short A Time?

[bneydgrl]

Ok I'm so frustrated.  I have a wonderful girl (born 8.26) and i feel like I'm at the point I'm not enjoying her b/c I'm so wrapped up in 'napping'.  Last week we had gotten to two naps ((:30-10:30 and about 1:30-3:30 -- bedtime between 6:30/6:45).  Well she was doing well but my DH thought maybe she needs a catnap so she's not awake so long in the afternoon.  On Sunday we did 9:30-10:30 --12:30-2:30 and 4:30-5.  It threw her all off.  She woke up early the next day and her naps have been completely wonky.

I've tried extending and it just doesn't seem to help.   I know it works great for some moms and bebes but it doesn't seem to be our thing.

My question is....is it better to try and stretch her when she wakes early like today at 6?   How we got to the two naps was just following her clues.  So I figured I would try and go down that road again b/c I was afraid I was stretching her too much -- thus the short naps.   THis morning after waking around 6 I watched for her yawns and put her down right around 8...she fell asleep about 8:15 and slept until 8:45 on the dot.

Should I just be patient and wait for naps to 'sort themselved out' at six months?

Go with an earlier bedtime (6:30/6:45) again instead of 7 to try and fix the early wakings?

HELP!

ps This was what we had for about 4 days:

7-Eat - 8oz +1-2oz of solids
9:30-Sleep
10:30 - Wake
11 - Eat - 8oz
1 - Eat - 5 oz (b.c I don't believe int he dream feed and I hope to faze this out by adding in solids at lunch soon)
1:30- Sleep
3:30-Wake
3:30/4 - 8oz +1-2oz of solids
6:00/6:15 - Start bedtime routine....eat 8oz
6:30/6:45 - asleep

Now it's so all over the board I can't really post anything 

[Taylor's Mommy]

Hi there and welcome to the boards.  Sorry you are having nap troubles.  Let me ask you a few questions:
When you decided to start the catnap, did you start putting her down later or still do 6:30 pm as bedtime?
Have the early wakings and the short am nap and the catnap all coincided together?
How is the pm nap?
Lastly, how does dd go down for naps initially?  Would you say she falls asleep indendently?

If you answer yes to question #2, I have a feeling this is due to the routine and with some tweaking you should be able to get back on track.  Don't fret, we should be able to get it figured out! 

[bneydgrl]

The one day we did the catnap...Sunday...she woke at 5 and we put her down at 7.  She woke earlier on Monday (not honestly sure how early b/c she doens't make much noise when she wakes...just rolls around)

Yes...the early wakings...short AM nap and catnap all came together this week....after we 'had it' last week but mommy/daddy felt the need to tweak...bad mommy/daddy

PM nap is variable.   I also follow the advice from Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child that when naps are still short...keep waketimes short.  Sooooo   She woke at about 6 this morning...watched for sleepy cues and put her down right after 8 (after yawning twice).  She slept from 8:15-8:45.  Again kept waketime short and she slept from 11:10-11:40.   Just put her down again (it's right after 1:30) and she fell asleep.  Now we were doing this for about a week before she fell into the long two naps so I thought I'd try going down this road again (just following her clues and keeping waketimes short to avoid overtiredness)

She goes down for naps very well.  Our soothing routine is short...about five minutes of rocking, shushing and patting and she goes down mostly awake if not completely awake.  She'll normally drift off in about 5-10 min with letting a little cry out before she goes to sleep.   If she is overtired she'll cry a little but nothing major.  No paci...no swaddling...just in a sleep sack

I would love to just get her back to a stable waketime and thos two long naps back!  How?  Do I fight back with an earlier bedtime?  How early?

When she was in this two catnaps in the morning and a longer PM nap (1.5-2 hours) she was good for about 3.5 before bedtime...if that helps.

[Taylor's Mommy]

Hi there,

Okay, I have also read Healthy Sleep Habits and will try to recall some of the information he has in there and apply it to your situation. 
Regarding the early morning wakings, I do remember taht in the book he says you know you have moved bedtime up too early if they start wakign up early.  So you may want to try to stick with the 7 pm bedtime if she can make it.  I know another mom (Colesmom in fact) that started going earlier and earlier for bedtimes and kind of got in a rut of a 6 pm bedtime and as early as a 5 am wake up!
By also sticking with a 7pm bedtime you can have a better chance of getting her back down to sleep if she does wake early, versus if she goes to bed at 6 and wakes up at 6, she has already had 12 hours of sleep which is pretty much the max. amount they need.
To fix the early morning wakigns you can try a couple of things:

1. W2S by going in at 5 am and gently stirring her in hopes of breaking the sleep cycle.  Personally this has worked very well for us twice now (in fact I have had to do it the last 3 mornings after we went on a early mornign flight last week, she has been in a rut wakign at 6am on the dot).  I know other moms it hasn't worked for though.  My suggestion is to try it for at least 3 days in a row to see if it really works. 
2. Try putting her back to sleep and not even getting her up for the day until a specified time that you and dh maybe agree on.
3. Try offering a feed and putting her back to sleep until at least 7 am (we did this when she started waking at 6 am at 6 months and got into a bad habit but finally broke it with W2S).

Have you tried any of these methods to try and fix the early morning wakings?

My suggestion is then if the 6 am wakings continue, shave off 15minutes of A time for a few days before nap #1.  usually 30 minute naps are a result of overtiredness.  Perhaps she is going into 1st nap overtired to begin with because she was not fully rested from her night sleep.  It is also best to keep 1st A times shorter than the rest of her A times. 
If the short am nap continues then try to stretch her out to at least 2-2.5 hours A time for her next nap.
If the short pm nap continues then I think you are going to have to read her cues and if she needs the catnap, then go with it.  Keep in mind that many babies don't drop the catnap until around 7 months of age when they can handle 3-3.5 hours of A time.

It sounds liek the key may be to try and get the mornign back on track and then the afternoon will fall in place.  So try to fix the early am wake up and find the right first A time.  Keep in mind that it may require some trial and error for a bit.  When you try a new A time stick with it for at least 3 days to find out if it is truly going to or not going to work. 
I know this is extrememly frustrating and believe me I've been there and we still have our challenges!  Taylor is a great night sleeper but she has always been a bad napper  .  She is always keeping my on my toes though and testing my skills!

Good luck, hang in there and let me know if you have any other questions. 

[bneydgrl]

Thank you for getting back to me.

I hope we are back on track b/c I paid close attention to when she woke (6:15) and put her down a little bit before the 2.5 hour mark (what she was needing when she was doing an hour morning and a two hour afternoon nap).  She slept for a solid hour so I'm going to try again 3 hours after her nap ended and see if that can't get us back on a good rhythm for her.

If she sleeps two hours (12:30ish-2:30ish) would 6:30 be a reasonable bedtime?  Yesterday was a little wonky so we put her down at 6 and she slept 6:15-6:15.  So I'm hoping with the longer naps today we can slowly get back to a 7-7ish pattern by extending bedtime a little each day.  Would that be reasonable?

[Taylor's Mommy]

Hi

Yes, a 6:30 bedtime and then gradually moving it back out to 7 sounds very reasonable.  How did today go?

[bneydgrl]

Well things went a little better.  I tried W2S last night and was afraid it didn't work b/c I heard her at 5:45 and didn't think she fell back asleep.  Later my DH told me she did go back to sleep for about 30 min (waking at 7:15).  So she did a little over an hour with a nap starting at 9:30.  I've learned that her ideal awake time is three hours between the first and second nap and normally results in a 1.5-2 hr nap so I'm hoping we're back on track.

I guess I'm wondering is it better to go with the stable waketimes between naps (if the waketime varies as much as an hour) or to start leaning towards set naptimes?

Also if she's doing 2.5 before first nap and 3 hrs before second...have you found a good interval of time before bedtime so they are tired but not overtired (and thus wake early)?

Thanks!!!

Updated to add...

So this was today
9:30-10:30 - nap
1:30-2:30 - nap
I'm thinking about bringing the catnap back b/c yesterday i tried to stretch her from 2:30 to 6:30 and she cried a little when going to sleep...doesn't normally do this...and she woke super early...so i'm thinking she went down overtired.

Is it unreasonable to move back to naps at 9 and 1 and then a catnap at 4 with a bedtime of 7?  I would rather have the catnap a little earlier in the afternoon (but I'll put her down at 4:30 today).

Or is it better to stick with the 9;30 nap and 1:30 nap so if the 1:30 goes back to being two hours then we're good until 7?

Argh...just having a tough time figuring it out b/c I also have this in my head:
From Meg's Mom:
I looked up the A times for her age and here, is what i found:

6-8 month old
2.5 after am wake up – usually 1.5-2.0hr in length
2-3hr after end of am nap – same as above

So
7am wake
9.30 am nap – wake no later then 11am
1.00 or 2.00 pm nap – wake no later then 4pm
3.30 or 4.00 catnap (if needed) – 30/45min
7.00 – 7.30 bed

Please help with some perspective on this!

[Taylor's Mommy]

Hi There,

It sounds like W2S did work this morning.  For us it took 3 days.  The first day she still woke and I did PU/PD from 6-7 until I finally got her up for the day.  The first day was HE double hockey sticks!  The second day she woke at 6 still but then went back to sleep on her own until 6:40.  The 3rd day she stirred slightly at 6 and then slept till 7:15...and that was that!

I guess I'm wondering is it better to go with the stable waketimes between naps (if the waketime varies as much as an hour) or to start leaning towards set naptimes?

IMHO I think it is hard to have set nap times with a varying wake time in the morning, and when there is still the catnap up in the air.  However, I do think it is helpful to have naptimes not vary by more than apx. 30 minutes. 

Also if she's doing 2.5 before first nap and 3 hrs before second...have you found a good interval of time before bedtime so they are tired but not overtired (and thus wake early)?

With no catnap 3.5 hours of A time before bed time is pretty typical and will be until they drop down to 1 nap.  But with the catnap it is very common for there to only be 1.5-2 hours of A time before bedtime because it is such a brief amount of rest and can't sustain them for much longer than that.

I'm thinking about bringing the catnap back b/c yesterday i tried to stretch her from 2:30 to 6:30 and she cried a little when going to sleep...doesn't normally do this...and she woke super early...so i'm thinking she went down overtired.

I think I had said in a previous post that most babies don't drop the catnap until at least 7 months.  I think it is best to try and still sneak a catnap in since she is not 6 months old yet and 4 hours of A time before bed is a lot for her to handle.  Plus, since she is still doing just 1 hour each for am and pm naps, I really think she could use that extra 30-45 minutes of sleep.

Is it unreasonable to move back to naps at 9 and 1 and then a catnap at 4 with a bedtime of 7?  I would rather have the catnap a little earlier in the afternoon (but I'll put her down at 4:30 today).

I don't really think you need to move the catnap earlier unless she really fights you at bedtime.  If she doesn't give a bedtime battle, then a catnap anywhere between 4-5 is fine.  This is me speaking though based off of my dd who could go to bed 1 hour after waking from her catnap!   
So I think until you can get to 1.5 hours for either am or pm nap, you should try and stick with the catnap to get her trhough to bedtime.

Does this help at all???

[bneydgrl]

Just wanted to say thank you.   This mornign she woke around6:30/6:40 so I decided to shoot for hte 9am nap.  She still woke after 30 min even though it seems like 2.5hrs is her ideal A time.   She went back to sleep after a bit for another 30 min.  We shot for the 1p nap--30 min- up for about 15 then back to sleep until 2:30 so we're going to go back for the catnap.  Seems to make her nighttime sleep better and her days happier right now.

Once she starts to fight that nap..i.e. after what 20/30 min?...how much should I move bedtime up if her last nap ends around 2/2:30?

THANKS

[Taylor's Mommy]

Once she starts to fight that nap..i.e. after what 20/30 min?...how much should I move bedtime up if her last nap ends around 2/2:30?

I think you will find that once she really starts to fight her catnap will be at the point where she will be able to handle longer awake times, so she will now be going 3-3.5 hours between naps, having her second nap end later in the day...closer to 3:30ish, then making 7 an ideal bedtime.  KWIM?

[bneydgrl]

Thanks for clarifying.    Once we get to that point....what kind of a routine would we shoot for with a 6:30/7 wake up?

[Taylor's Mommy]

Wake and eat 7
Activity 7:30-10
Sleep 10-11
Activity and Eat 11-2:30
Sleep 2:30-4
Activty and Eat 4-7
Bed at 7ish

HTH!

[bneydgrl]

Ok i've tried more and less time from wake up time and the first nap just seems to be 30 mins.   Is it likely that she'll just grow out of this?  (The moderator on the sleep training board on ivillage keeps telling me babies naturally lengthen their naps at 6-7 mo).   We seem to be doing well though and through trial and error found she wants the three hours between the first nap so this is now how our days look.

Wake at 6:30 (bedtime doesn't seem to matter...this just seems to be her wakeup time..is that possible?)
9 - nap (sometimes an hour but mostly 30 min)
12:30-1:30/2 - nap (if she naps longer its 1-2)
then catnap from 4-4:30
Bedtime by 7

So do i just need to be patient?   I've tried W2S twice and both times she was up fro 45 min before returning to sleep so I'm scared to try for naps and turn a 30 min nap into a 20 min one if i wake her!

Thank you for all of your help and perspective!

[Taylor's Mommy]

Gosh I am kind of at a loss now.  I would say to just go wtih the 3 hours A time if she seems to do best with that and keep at it for a few more days.  Sometimes it takes a few days to a couple of weeks to change their biorythyms.  So in essence, I guess your best bet is to be patient at this point.
I'm sorry if that doesn't help much 

Good luck and keep us posted please!

[bneydgrl]

Andrea,

No I really appreciate your help...it's nice to bounce stuff off of other moms b/c sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees..KWIM?   

Anyway...today she napped for 30 min at 9..I left her int he crib and after about 25 min she fell back asleep for another 30.  THen at 1 she slept for 1:15 and about a 40 min catnap at 4:30.  So we're shooting to put her down at 7 (i figure if it's a little early she'll just roll around until she's tired and drift off) and hope that this all works out soon (fingers crossed).