Author Topic: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help  (Read 3203 times)

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Offline shazzy

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Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« on: February 20, 2006, 09:26:16 am »
Hello all,

This is my first time postingon this website and I am in need of some sleep help.  My son is 4mths old.  Up until Chritsmas he was taking night feeds but he started only taking a few ounces we stopped them.  Since Christmas he is waking several time through the night.  Here is a bit about our day

He is on a 3 1/2 - 4 hr schedule, bottle fed.  He takes 45 min naps between every feed (I can't seem to get him to go longer) and we have a bed time routine of feed, bath, story, song and sleep.  We do use a dummy and have done since he started waking more in the night although once he isin a good sleep we can remove it or it can fall out and he will not wake.  Since around 3 weeks he has only ever done 45 min naps and has always had a bedtime routine.  He goes to bed around 7/7.30pm and we doa  dream feed at 11pm

Between 7 and 11 he may stir but it does not take much for him to get back to sleep.  The problems start around 1am.  He may not wake at the same time every night but he wakes 3/4 times before 6am.  At least one of those tmes it takes us 45 mins to get him back to sleep.  I don't go to him until he really is wide awake and crying.  No matter what we don't take him out of the cot until 7am when we start the day.  His first nap after this is around 9am (he has usually been awake since 6)

I watch carefully for his sleep cues and he goes straight down for a nap.  Was going to try the wake to sleep method but thismorning he woke before he usualy would and at night it seems to be random times.

I am getting really down about this and very tired.  Please please any help would be greatly apprecited
x

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2006, 19:21:44 pm »
 :'( Please - anyone????

Offline Lucysmom

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2006, 19:47:22 pm »
Hi There -

Sorry you are having such a hard time right now with your little guy.  I think posting your entire daily routine in terms of eat, activity, sleep would be helpful to really get a handle on things but I have some initial thoughts.

The way I understood your post was that prior to Christmas he was not taking much during night feeds and since Christmas he has been waking at night a lot.  So I am correct in saying that these nightwakings started when he was around 3 months old?  If yes, then the problem might be that he went through a growth spurt (there is one around 3 months) and things are still wonky from that.  In order to get more calories into him, you could make all of his feeds 4 hours apart so that he will take really full feeds each time.  Or you can feed him whenever you normally do, but try to increase the amount (I have never had success with that).  Or you introduce a "snack" bottle that you give before naps.  In the naps forum there is a sticky entitled something like "How Tracy Helped Josie get Passed 45 minute Naps" and the whole snack bottle thing is detailed there.  That sticky might be a good one for you to check out as Josie was 4 months old and things were still wonky from her 3 month growth spurt and this was affecting her naps as well.

How does your ds fall asleep for naps and bedtime?  If he is not falling asleep independently then that can cause short naps and nightwakings.  Also, can he fall asleep without his pacifier?  Sometimes in the night does he just need his pacifier replaced and then he goes to sleep?  Just trying to determine if maybe we are dealing with a pacifier addiction here. 

My hunch is that he is hungry during the night, maybe not at 1, but after that.

Also, in the EASY forum there are routines posted based on age.  You mentioned in your post that he is awake at 6 and then his first nap is at 9.  So that would make 3 hours of awake time.  For a 4 month old, three hours is really quite a lot and he is probably overtired by 9.  At 4 months, babies' awake time is around 2 hours.  We are just now approaching 3 hours of awake time and my dd is 8.5 months old.  Overtiredness definitely causes 45 minute naps so maybe you need to cut back on his awake time, do wake to sleep as he is now used to 45 minute naps, and see if that doesn't help.  It takes a while to see results doing wake to sleep but dedicate yourself to doing for every nap for 4-5 days and things should improve.  Again looking at the post I mentioned in the naps forum will also help with this issue.

I have written a book here but please post back and I will do my best to help.  The mods on this board are great so I am sure with their help we will get this sorted.  {{{HUGS}}} to you!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 19:50:17 pm by Lucysmom »

Offline Lucysmom

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2006, 19:53:11 pm »
Here is the post I mentioned:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=649.0

In your sleep deprived state I thought it cruel to make you look for it!  ;)

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2006, 20:14:28 pm »
Thanks so much for your reply. Hopefully I have answered everything below.

Over the xmas period he was waking a lot for night feeds then it slowly disappeared and I realised he was doing 6 hr stretchs.  I never did a dream feed so introduced it thinking of I fed him at 11 then in theory he could go through to 5/6am.

He is slowly getting to a 4 hr routine.

We get p at 7 and as mentioned before he is already awake from 6 (ish).  I dress hima dn then feed him.  He does not seem interested in morning feeds even though he has had nothing since 11pm.  He would take 120ml max (by the way he weighs around 12lbs).  By this stage he is already shwoing signs of being tired but I worry about putting him to bed.  If he goes to bed now he only sleeps 45 mins so by the time the next feed comes around he is shattered and starts to fall aslep then we get into a bad rountine.  Sometimes he has had 2 45 min naps between feeds as he is so tired. 

His next few is usually 3-31/2 hours as he can't last the 4...after that its 4hrs.  Activity time we usually go out, play, sing, etc.  His total activity time is probably an hour maybe a bit more.

At night soemtimes all I need to do is put the dummy in and he is fast asleep again.  I can see this is not good but as I am so tired I have not had the energy to see what happens if I don't give it to him.  maybe tonight is the night to try as my husband is away so he won't get sleep deprived also!  I am not sure whther to try not using the dummy tonight or try feeding him sometime around 3 when he wakes....

i want to do wake to sleep at his nap today but he woke earlier than normal after 30 mins!  I had been keeping track of his wake times over the last 3 nights to see if there was a particular time he woke ( I thought there was) but he wakes at 2 or 3.  Sounds like I need to get his naps sorted...

At naps and at night he uses the dummy and we say goodnight and leave the room - he often falls asleep alone sometimes we have to return to the room once.

Thank you so much for replying...

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2006, 20:24:31 pm »
Forgot to add he eats around 6oz at every feed (apart form morning)

7am get up (usually awake from 6)
7.15 - feed (usually only takes 4oz max)
7.45 - change nappy and play time
8.30/9 - nap time last 45 mins
9.45 - activity again with him yawning but can't get him back to sleep
10.30 - feed
11-2.30 play and sleep.  Sleep usually 45 mins but if out in pram he will sleep longer.  He is often very tired at this time.
2.30 feed
3.00 -6.30 play and sleep (sometimes can not get him to sleep at all at this time evebn though I know he is shattered)
6.30 feed
7.00 bath and bed (someitmes this can be earlier if he did not last 4 hrs between feeds)

11pm dream feed

Is his bed time too early??  tonight he was asleep for 7pm....

Offline Lucysmom

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2006, 00:54:40 am »
Hi Again -

Ok, so I think you are right that his naps need to get sorted and then his night sleep will improve.  I also suspect there might be a dummy dependence issue.  I don't have experience with this and would advise you to check out the props board to get some insight.

The fact that is first feed is small might be because of how long it has been since he last ate.  During this time his stomach shrinks so he is not able to put as much in his tummy.  I don't know if you have experienced this yourself.  If I am absolutely famished I will want to eat loads but I will get really full quite quickly.  So the amount I eat is less than I would normally.  I don't know if this necessarily means he needs a feed during the night though. 

I think he is chronically overtired at this point and so naps and night time sleep are poor.  If he seems to want to start the day at 6, then it probably will be better for him if you just go with that for the time being.  So when he is awake, feed him, do activity, and then put him down for a nap no later than 2 hours after his wake up.  So that means doing your wind down and having him in his cot at the two hour mark.  Watch his tired signs and if he is showing tired signs earlier put him down then.  But if he is not showing tired signs at two hours put him down anyway.  I don't know what kind of baby he is but some babies do not show tired signs or they are very fleeting and easy to miss and they enter into overtiredness quickly.  This is especially true with spirited babies.  It sounds like you can pretty much set a clock by him to predict when he will wake up, so do wake to sleep accordingly.  If he wakes at around 45 minutes, maybe go in and observe him and see what happens at the 45 minute mark.  Then once you know what happens, you can do wake to sleep for him for each nap.  For example, he may need his dummy popped back in or his legs held down with gentle but firm pressure.  Or it could be something else entirely.  There are tons of posts about wake to sleep in the naps forum so I would encourage you to browse there.  Do wake to sleep for every nap.  Like I said in my previous post, it might take a while until you have success but keep at it.  Now if he wakes up anyway at 45 minutes and you cannot get him back to sleep, keep activity very low key and short.  Then put him back down for another 45 minute nap.  So it may look like EASASEASAS for a while and that is OK.  The important thing is to work towards getting him used to sleeping through the partial awakening that naturally happens at 40 minutes and to try to avoid him becoming overtired.  Some babies are just 45 minute nappers and thankfully most do consolidate their sleeps at around 5-6 months but trying to help him along is a good thing. 

For all of his awake times during the day, I would not keep him up past 2 hours.  If his naps are short, then do EASASE and go with his flow while still trying to extend his naps.

The third nap of the day (the catnap) is the first that he will eventually drop so you can think of it as a freebie.  So if he falls asleep in the pram, go for a walk.  Or if he falls asleep in the car, go for a drive (and bring a book or magazines so that you can stop the car and read when he's sleeping  ;)).  You can use a prop for this sleep as it is just a catnap.  The rest of his sleeps should be in his cot. 

His bed time at 7 pm is not too early.  In fact, until he is somewhat caught up on his rest, you might want to put him to bed at 6:30.  Just see how the day goes and if he is absolutely shattered at the end of the day and it seems silly to keep him up, put him to bed early.  I have been known to put Lucy to bed at 6:15 if the day was particularly awful.  And this may cause him to sleep later the next morning.  Sounds counter-intuitive, but it is true. 

OK, now just a few questions:  When you introduced the dreamfeed, did his nightwakings get worse?  Also, when he has trouble going to sleep either for naps or bed and you say you have to go back to his room, what do you do for him?  Just reassure, plug in the dummy, something else?  Do you have to stay with him until he is completely asleep?  How did you teach him to fall asleep independently?  Pat/shush or something else?

It is hard to tell if he needs a feed in the night.  That is your call but I don't know if it would be so very unusual for him to need a feed in the night.  Hopefully a moderator can chime in on this. 

Well, I have really written a novel and must attend to dinner.  I hope this helps somewhat.  I am by no means at all an expert I just think sometimes it helps to have another person's perspective as it is so hard to think straight when everything is going haywire and you are sleep deprived.  Let me know how you're doing and how your night goes.  I'll be thinking of you.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 00:58:31 am by Lucysmom »

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2006, 09:18:24 am »
Hello,

Well last night was the same.  He slept really well from 7 - 1 as always ( I can hear him moan but henever really wakes up) but after 1am he woke 4 times and was up from 6.  Although it was not hard to get him back to sleep.  he did not appear to need a feed so I just put him back to sleep.  He is currently asleep so going to try thee wake to sleep thing in a  minute!
I assocaite the night problems with the dreamfeed only because it all seemed to happen around the same time.  Over xmas he ate loads and then slowed down (probably growth spurt at 3 mths) as he was only taking 1 night feed around 1 I thought by moving it to 11 it might help a little.  we did this after xmas and his night wakings got worse.  I used to feed him when he woke but he only took 2 oz so I just started to put him back to sleep and started using a dummy.  Over the last 2 weeks he is waking more than ever.  I agree I think I need to start my day at 6am now instead to see how things go.

Maybe I should increase his afternoon bottles to ensure he is getting enough milk as his morning feed is so small.
I am not sure what type of baby he is but he is always on the move (arms and legs go mad) and he hates sitting on someones lap for long.  When he wakes at night his arms and legs are going mad but we have tried swaddling but he fights so much that the blanket ends up over his head at night and that freaks me out.

When he is falling alseep and need to go to him I usually put the dummy in ans shh for a bit which calms him down.  I tend not to stay long which is probably wrong and I do the same at night.  I am so tired that as soon as it looks like he is calm I go straight back to bed.

Not sure how we taught him to fall asleep on his own.  We jsut used to leave the room and only go back if he was crying like mad.  His sleep cues are very visual - he rubs his eyes, stares into space, and yawns so I tend to catch it quickly.  The rest of his cues are harder.  We do try teh shh pat but he hates going on his side so I tend to stroke his head and shhhh

Again thank you so much for replying to me  - it means an incredible amount to me

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2006, 10:32:07 am »
Thought I would let you know how the nap just went.  He fell asleep at 8.46 easily and slpet for 35 mins.  I went intothe room to do a wak to sleep but he had again woken a little early so after 20 mins of shhh he went back to sleep and is waking up now at 10.30.  So he has just had just under 1 1/2 hrs.  he is currenlty awake but lying in the cot so will leave him for a bit.

Offline Lucysmom

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2006, 13:51:56 pm »
Hi -

Thanks for your reply.  We will get to the bottom of this sooner or later!  ;)

Ok, for some babies the dreamfeed is actually counter-productive in that it disturbs their sleep which can result in nightwakings.  My dd was not phased by the dreamfeed, but I have read several posts from people whose babies did not respond well to the dreamfeed.  The first part of the night is the most restorative sleep supposedly so maybe the dreamfeed is throwing everything off for him.  So I would try getting rid of the dreamfeed and maybe you can get to bed earlier as well.  If he wakes in the night, you can determine whether or not he needs a feed.  I would think that without the dreamfeed one feed a night would be reasonable.  You could certainly try to increase the amount he takes at each feeding but be careful not to just feed him more frequently during the day.  If the feeds are too close together, then he will take several small feeds which leads to snacking.  So 3.5-4 hours between feeds is reasonable.

It actually sounds like he may need to be swaddled.  The reason I say this is because you said his arms and legs are flailing all over the place.  Here in the US there is a swaddle blanket called The Miracle Blanket and it is really really really hard for babies to get out of it.  I am sure you could get it online.  Or check out Mother Care and see if they have something similar.  The other thing you could do is when his arms and legs are flailing all over is to apply gentle but firm pressure to his legs to hold them down and hold one arm down while shushing.  I do this with dd when she is freaking out and sometimes it takes a while for her to calm and then other times it takes 30 seconds.  This is also how I do wake to sleep for naps (without the shushing) with her so maybe this is what you need to do with your ds. 

It sounds like he is a spirited little guy.  On the EASY board there is a "get to know your baby" quiz.  It would be revealing to take it and see what kind of babe he is.  If he is spirited, there is a support group for spirited babies on the EASY board. 

It is a good thing that you don't stick around once he is calmed.  If you were to stay until he was dead asleep your presence could become a prop meaning he would not be able to fall asleep without you there. 

That is great that you were able to get him to nap for a total of 1.5 hours this morning!  I know you were probably annoyed that you missed his wake up but the fact that you were able to get him back to sleep is wonderful.  So maybe you need to go in to his room 25 minutes after he falls asleep and to observe and then start doing wake to sleep.

He's not on solids at all is he?  I would not think so but just wanted to check.

Do you think he has a dummy dependence?  Like I said before, there is lots of info about this on the props board so maybe check it out and see what you think.

Most importantly, how are YOU doing?  Are you eating and taking care of yourself as much as you can?  I hope so and I send you lots of {{{HUGS}}}.  Let me know how you are getting on and I am thinking of you. 

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2006, 14:14:42 pm »
The success of this morning has not been followed through in this nap.  He slept for 40 mins.  I tried the wake to sleep and put a dummy in his mouth and he opened his eyes.  He fell asleep for 10 mins then woke right up.  I have been trying for 1 hr to get him back to sleep and I am slowly losing the will to live!  He is not crying he just wants to play and he is smiling away.  I have left him to play for a minute in his cot and gone back in.  It looked close to sleep again but he woke up.  At what point do I give up or do I try pretty much untilthe next feed?  I guess that might be a questions answered under the naps secton.

We talked about dropping the dreamfeed before and just doing a night feed.  maybe I will see what happens although he has now started to stir just before we get to 11pm.

Not sure about dummy dependancy - it often falls out just as we is going to sleep and it does not bother him.  At night (after 1am) it seems to make him fall asleep quicker but when it falls out then he can wake.

We bought a swaddle blanket with velcro but he gets out of that too!  He is very active and can easily spend hours kicking on his play mat alone!

I am doing ok.  My husband does friday and Saturday nights for me so I get a break although I still wake anyway but I get more time off.  Last weekend he looked after him all sunday and I had a day of rest.  As Finlay does sleep so well from 7 we are lucky and get a good dinner and some time together.

I also have a great group of friends I met at my antenatal class - although all of their babies sleep through the night!

Thank you again for your help.  I will chat to my husband and see what he thinks we should try (lose the DF etc.)  I will keep you posted and thank you for taking the time out to help me from your own no doubt busy day!

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 07:18:10 am »
Hi all,

Still looking for advice - last night was the worst of all.  He was tired when he went to bed at 7pm and he woke every hour.  He was easy to get to sleep until 5am.  I fed him and he oly took 3oz and then it tok me 40 mins to get him to sleep. All he wanted to do was play.  I decided that no matter what we would start our day at 7am so I had to wake him.  Was this wrong??  Should I have let him sleep?

I am getting to my wits end and I am finding it hard to play and be happy with him during the day.  I feel like I must have done something veyr wrong to create this sleep probloem.  Please help :-(

Offline Lucysmom

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 14:26:05 pm »
 :'( :'( :'( Sorry last night was awful.  You must be absolutely shattered. 

When you had to go in to him last night to get him back to sleep, did he need his dummy plugged back in and then he would go back to sleep?  I am just wondering if this is a dummy dependence issue. 

Is it possible that he is not feeling well?  I know he only took 3 oz at 5 am but how is he eating the rest of the day?  Do you think maybe his tummy is upset or he is not well otherwise? 

I have asked a moderator to take a look at this thread and see what she thinks.  I really am trying to help and I feel awful that things are not going well.  I know what you mean about your baby being all happy and normal during the day, and you are not feeling happy with him.  And don't blame yourself for his sleep issues.  I should take my own advice there!  These little beings are changing at an astonishing rate and their needs/wants change along with them so it is hard to keep up and know what the best thing is.  You are a wonderful mom as you are actively trying to find a way to help him sleep better.  His smiles should also let you know you are the best mom in the world for your little guy!

Please keep me posted.  I am thinking of you and your little one.

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 16:30:53 pm »
Hello,

I did put the dummy back in and he fell asleep.  when I did it at 5am he spat it out several times. He only seems to take itif he is tired and wants to sleep.  The only reason I thought he was not dummy dependant is that it falls out when he is asleep and he does not wake.  Although we changed so many things after xmas that it could be anything.

Apart form sleeping he is fine.  He eats well, plays and smiles a lot.  He is recently over a tummy bug but I don't think that is a factor anymore.

My owrry is it never improves and I get depressed...i am sure it will get better and my husband does te friday and saturday night shifts so I do get a rest....if only Finlay would!

Thanks again
x

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 16:41:01 pm »
Just thinking we moved to a 3 1/2 then 4 hr scheudle but his sleep never improved  (he always had 45 min naps between feeds when on 3 hrs) now he is awake longer his sleep needs to be longer

Offline Lucysmom

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 19:11:16 pm »
Yes, the 4 hour EASY is basically this:

7 am Eat
9 am Sleep
11 am Eat
1 pm Sleep
3 pm Eat
5~6ish catnap to get through bedtime routine
7 pm final bottle and bed

So the two naps of the day are ideally 1.5-2 hours each plus a catnap.  Are you doing wake to sleep for his naps?  Like I said previously, if you cannot get him to sleep more than 45 minutes, then just make sure he has as many 45 minute naps as he needs.  So he might do two 45 minute naps between feeds.  And remember the catnap is a freebie so you can give yourself a well deserved break and just use whatever prop you'd like to get him to take a catnap (i.e. pram, car ride, being held to sleep, etc.).

Do you have the second book, The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems?  I only had the first book for a bit and really got a lot more out of the second book.

Also, I think you should post on the props boards and ask others' opinions about whether or not your ds is dummy dependent.  I know you say that the dummy can fall out while he is asleep and he does not wake up.  But then it seems possible that he does need the dummy back to get back to sleep once he comes into light sleep.  Just a thought but I really think posting on the props board would be a good idea.  I don't have experience with dummies as Lucy never took one.

It is about 7 pm there so I hope he is settling down nicely for bed.  Just one more night for you and then your dh will give you a well-deserved break. 


Offline Katet

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 22:26:54 pm »
lucysmom has given you great advice, I have been following the thread, but felt there was not much I couuld add.

 I do strongly agree at least part of it is the dummy that is the problem, the reason I think this is your little fellow reminds me of my ds#1 & he would sleep pretty well the first few hours & then wake heaps the rest of the night & would settle with the dummy (until about 5am, when he wanted a feed)
The reasons - 45min naps, & the constant waking.

The fact he doesn't wake when it falls out says it just falls out when he is in a deep cycle, but when he gets to a light sleep phase he needs it to go back to sleep.

Sorry I have to be the confirmer of bad news, but I do think that is the main cause of the problem, combined with what sounds like a spirited bub, which from my own experience means (unfortunately) every little milestone etc is going to be hard work & his sleeping through the night will probably be pretty erratic over the next 2 years if my experience is anything to go by.

I would gather together some strength & ditch the dummy if it was me... I left it till much later with ds#1 & boy has it been hard...not there yet & he is 31 months
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline shazzy

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Re: Sleep problems - getting desperate - please help
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2006, 07:41:32 am »
morning,

I will post ont he prop board.  Last night he was ok up until midnight ( had to go in once) overnight I left him twice and he feel asleep, once he went matt and I partly swaddled him and he eventualy fell asleep and once I was able to get him to sleep without the dummy - he kept spitting it out.  You are probably right it might be a dummy issue - I guess I am too scared to tackle that one in my current state!

In the morning he can only go 3 hrs before food as he takes so little at the 7am feed. but that does mean I can aim to get him to bed earlier and ge him to catch up on sleep.

Tonight we are going to try swaddling first, if no luck then we will tackle no dummy at the weekend!

I can't thank you enough for your help and kind words - they really have made a difference.

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