Am I ruining my sleeper?

[Carmela's Mom]

As I've been complaining for a few months now, Carmela is refusing most naps.  I got her to nap most of this week because she's sick but other than that, she is just refusing naps!  Well, today she started to refuse the nap and I gave her one hour.  She didn't nap and was playing pretty hard in her crib (she jumps and screams and has a ball in there ... not even resting) so I went in, laid her down and put her my hand on her back...10 minutes and she is OUT.....it's so obvious just by it only taking 10 mins that she NEEDS her nap ... am I going to be a prop?

I never do this for bedtime.  She goes in at 7 every night and is normally asleep within 30 minutes (45 minutes the absolute latest)...so is it safe to assume that I can do it for naps once in awhile and not for night or am I going to be in a jam in a few weeks???

[imsmum]

I think what you do for naps does not necessarily effect night sleep.  And while she can keep herself awake for her nap she does need to fall asleep at night at some point so even if she starts playing at night hoping you will come in, you can outlast her!

It's seems a lot of toddlers go on nap strikes around Carm's age.  I guess you can do 2 things--keep putting her in for her nap and hope that she'll eventually start napping again or try to re-establish the nap by going in and risk becoming a nap time prop.  imho, you  may have problems trying to keep Carm in her bed once she switches to a big girl bed and you coming in may help that transition for naps.  If you have to start staying longer than 10 minutes though I'm guessing you'll want to stop with #2 on the way. Hopefully once the nap is consistently reestablished, given that she can go to sleep on her own(at least at night) she'll start doing that again for her naps.

[Carmela's Mom]

I think I found out the answer to this just in case anyone else has these issues.

Yesterday it took me 10 mins to get her to sleep...leading me to believe that she needed it.  Well last night, I put her in at 7 p.m. her regular bedtime and she whined/cried and tossed and turned until 8.  Whenever it takes her that long to go to sleep we know we will have a problem.  We did.  Last night she was up so many times and then up for the day at 5 a.m.  I would have put her to bed later, but I've found when I do that, she wakes up early anyway.  So we were in catch 22.

Now today, it's the same crap.  I am so sick of it.  She got 8 hours sleep last night and is refusing her nap agian today.  And the thing is SHE IS TIRED.  She has rubbed her eyes, yawned and is just cranky from the moment she woke up.  I am so sick of fighting this kid's sleep!

[sacmommy]

I'm sorry Jackie! You I'm right there with you! Like Carmela, Karina's been sick so has been sleeping consistently this week but she goes through those exact same phases.

I have 2 thoughts -

1) I think there may not be a "right" answer for Carmela. She's very active, she changes a lot and responds differently to your cues depending on a whim (my thougts - I may be completely wrong and you can tell me so!) So this week the hand on the back may work, next week she may just need you to walk in after 30 mins and tell her to go to sleep, the following week she may just skip a lot, etc. So, I don't really think you run the danger of her getting too used to one method, because I doubt she'll go with the flow for very long. I think whatever works with her is probably best. Obviously, a lot of this I'm project from my own experiences with Karina. If you're putting your hand on her back every day for a month, and then night sleep consistently slides, THEN you should be concerned about becoming a prop.

2) I still wonder about wind down - can you remind me what your wind down looks like? I know you don't think that's it. But Karina does the exact same thing as Carmela, and I often find if I spend a few extra calm minutes holding her in a rocker in the dark in her room, she relaxes much more and goes right to sleep. If she doesn't get that calming time, or if it's not enough or whatever, she gets worked up and doesn't sleep just like Carmela. She plays, jumps, takes all her clothes off (including her sleeper with the reverse zipper), and just has a jolly old time. And it's not overtired/undertired related, because it happens regularly regardless of her tiredness and daily activity level.

Sorry it's been such a frustrating day. HTH.

[Carmela's Mom]

I am just at my wits end -- no joke.

Last night it took her one hour to fall asleep and today it's been 1.5 hours and she's still not sleeping.  Normally I wouldn't mind (she's not crying, just tossing and turning), but with Carmela I know this is a sign of how our night will go.  Whenever she goes to sleep at 8 or later, it's a catastrophe!

I just don't know what to do.  I know she's not feeling great with her cold (and I can't give her anything except tylenol because meds tend to keep her up instead of making her sleepy) but I would think she'd be crying if that was what was bothering her. 

I am trying so hard to stay consistent with her and trying so hard to just get her on a routine where she just SLEEPS but for whatever reason, we just can't seem to do it.  I am at a serious loss.  I'm exhausted and the thought of having a newborn and a kid that is sleeping 8-9 hours a DAY is just tiring already.

Our routines used to be like yours...we used to 30 minutes of "quiet" time/reading together before going upstairs.  Upstairs we'd brush teeth, read a book, sing songs and then rock for a few minutes BUT with the baby coming, I simply can't expect to put close to an hour to put Carmela to bed when I have  a newborn who may need to be fed, changed, etc. at that time.  Night time isn't that much of a problem since DH is here but for naps it's just me...and I can't split myself in two. 

Hopefully in two weeks Carmela is getting her big girl bed and furniture delivered.  I just want to set that up and START ALL OVER.  Start a new routine and go from there.  I know and expect that transition to take time (thus why I'm doing it 2 months before the baby)...but it scares me even more that we are having the issues we are having now.

[sacmommy]

I understand about worrying about have a newborn and a poorly-sleeping older child. (I can tell you many awful nap battle stories I was having with my 2 1/2 yo for the first few months of Karina's life, but why dredge it all up?!) However, I think you're making yourself more worried and anxious now, which is probably not helping with Carmela's sleeping.

Is there any chance she has an ear infection? Tossing and turning sounds like she's not comfortable, and the cold could have caused an ear infection (both my kids have them right now).

I actually don't have a long wind down with Karina, but I can't just put her right in her bed. I would say I spend 10 minutes max on her wind down for nap. A few minutes with the sippy cup of milk, then a few minutes holding her before I put her in bed (all this is in her room in the dark).

Finally, personally with all the sleep problems Carmela has, I would hold off on the transition to the big bed. Since she plays at bedtime, it seems to me she's just going to be getting out of bed all the time once she has the freedom to do so. You won't need the crib right away for the new baby, so I would wait. Just my 2 cents. The transition to a big bed with my son was awful - he got out of bed all the time and it took months to figure out a system to get him to stay in bed. We still work on it and he's 4!!

[Lan]

I have to admit the routines you posted on the later naptime thread looked good to me - but you weren't happy with it. I think with Caremla, you might to let the naps go altogether and get her to have good sleep at night ,or stick with a later nap/later bedtime and accept she'll wake early some days. 12-12.5 hours a day of sleep is tricky...it's impossible to get a long nap, an early bedtime and wake-up after 6.15 am with a daily sleep requirement of 12-2.5 hours. You should be able to get 2 out of the 3 though, so you might have decide which one is your lowest priority.  For me, it's the early bedtime so my son goes down at 8pm.  I think for you I suggested a nap about 1.30 and a bedtime of 7.30?

WHatever you decide, you might have to give it 2-3 weeks of a consistent routine to see results, and she still might have the odd bad day. I wouldn't start until she's over her cold though.  If she's sick, have you tried something like Demazin or does that wind her up too much?

[Carmela's Mom]

Hi Lan

we are going for the 1 p.m. nap and sticking with the 7 p.m. bedtime for now.  By 7 p.m. she is exhausted.  She still has this cold so I figure now would be a good time to do the extra cuddles before nap and bed and so far they worked...(just tried yesterday for the first time). 

the thing is that though Carmela averages 12 hours a day of sleep.  She NEEDS more.  She needs more like 12.5-13 hours to be herself.  When she gets that she is just a joy.  I wouldn't care how many hours she got, as long as she is happy and well rested.  She clearly is not with anything under 12.5

As far as skipping the naps, she is so not ready.  She skipped two this week and let me tell you, she was a DEVIL the entire day and the next day until she got her 13 hours of sleep, she was awful.  So clearly tired.

Thanks for all the advice   Hope everything is going well in both of your houses!

[Valerie W]

Just a general comment - I am mom to 18 month old twins Quinn & Mikaila.  I've been lucky, generally they're been really good sleepers and nappers.

BUT ... they were sick with colds/stuffed noses for 2 1/2 weeks just recently, and in I thought I had lost my lovely children and they had turned into rotten cranky little devils.  From what I had heard, I believed it was just an 18 month old thing.  Eating, sleeping, playing was a battle.

Then the boogers and the attitudes disappeared.

Maybe once your little one is feeling better you won't find the sleep issues such a struggle.

Good luck!

[Carmela's Mom]

Thanks for the advice Valerie.  Unfortunately Carmela's been pulling this no nap thing now for over 2 months, so I really don't think its related to her being sick. Could be, but I doubt it. 

I did institute a 10 minute cuddle before naps and 5 minute before bedtime.  It has helped with bedtime, and I THOUGHT it was helping with naps but obviously not today.  She was rubbing her eyes today, clearly tired, refused lunch (ate like nothing) and then went upstairs for "night night" on her own.  I cuddled for 10 mins, put her in and now she's playing. 

Ya know I don't even care if she doesn't take a nap.  I get a rest from her for 2 hours anyway, BUT two things 1) I pay the price for the no naps.  She is a devil the entire next day after the missed nap.  I can't be putting up with temper tantrum after temper tantrum for her failure to nap.  The other thing is I babysit and she has woken the boy I babysit up so many times by her jumping and screaming.  I try to go in there and tell her to be quiet but unless I literally sit in there, she won't.....I just wish if she didn't want to nap that she would at least be quiet and not be so damn cranky to pay for it.

[sacmommy]

Hi Jackie, How are Carmela's naps going? Do the cuddles seem to be helping at all?

[Carmela's Mom]

Thank you so much for checking in on us   I always feel so bad posting constantly about our struggles... since I know everyone is going through struggles so reading a check in on us is really appreciated!

Carmela is JUST getting over an ear infection (you called it the other day) and bad cold.  During that time she was sick, she slept, slept and slept.  13-14 hour days!!!!!  Oh did it feel good to have such a sleeper on my hands!!!!!!!

So its really hard to say whether or not the cuddles worked, since when I started them, it was the same time she was sick and she was falling asleep standing up so I think she would have went in just fine.  But I am continuing them. 

Our issue is now that she's feeling better, we're starting in the same place we left off I think.  Yesterday I didn't put her in for a nap until 1 p.m. because our painter was here and I really wanted to see if he would be done by the time I put her in.  It didn't work out that way and I put her in anyway.  She wasn't showing any tired signs earlier anyway. She went straight to sleep after the cuddles though which was great, but then woke up 1 hour later. I'm not sure if it was because she was sick or if the painter woke her. 

Last night at 6:30 p.m. she started getting cranky.  I brought her upstairs and put her in her crib at 7:10 which was 10 mins later than normal and 40 mins after she showed her tired signs.  I hope that was our mistake.  It took her 1.5 hours to fall asleep last night  and don't you know she was up before 6:00 this morning.  So needless to say, she was TIRED this morning.  At 11:00 it was a struggle to keep her up in the car, so we came right home.  I kept her up for lunch (early lunch at 11:45 instead of 12) and she ate real fast and then we cleaned up and she still seemed tired so I put her in at 12:20.  She fell right asleep.  We'll see for how long.

My issue right now is that bedtime is set for a LONG time for 7 p.m. I am going to be so strict with that.  It seems to help her when I am strict.  And now I think I'm going to go to 12:00 lunch with a 12:30-12:45 nap.  And be strict with that.  I feel we are changing too much whether it's 12:15 or 1:00...and although with her being sick, it really did depend on her mood, I think I have to become stricter with it.   

Thanks so much for asking and sorry for the book.  I am so ready to get passed our sleeping issues and I think the 10 minute cuddle is in the right direction...I'll keep you posted.

HOW are you guys doing and how are you both feeling?

[sacmommy]

Well, I'm glad you got a bit of a break from dealing with sleep issues while Carmela was sick! These things can just take over everything, and if you're anything like me you get to obsessing about it! I'm glad she's sleeping today - I remember several times in the past Carmela would get overtired and be so tired, and then not nap. So celebrate the small successes! And I hope the cuddles work. They've been great for me for the past month or so. Knock on wood. You know she'll change direction as soon I she senses I"m relaxing a bit!

We're doing good, and finally at the end of that cold! Karina's last so long because her asthma problems kick in, and then we're up all night dealing with her coughing fits. Which is why I'm sick - no sleep. (Plus my son was sick too, so with the combo we were up at least 5 times a night.) Sleep issues are mellow right now, so I'm working more on sibling rivalry, kindergarten interviews and all that!

[Carmela's Mom]

Well I ended up having to wake her from her nap.  I hate waking her.  I pay for it ALL night long   She went in at 12:20 though so I woke her at 3:00 to protect our 7:00 bedtime.

Tonight was a crazy night because stupidly I set an appointment for the guy to measure our door at 6:30...so dumb of me!!!!!  That wound her up of course and then our bedtime routine was all over the place.  DH started it and I ended it which is different.  Then instead of our 10 minute cuddle, I did maybe 3 minutes.  I had thought she was so tired because she didn't even move on my shoulder, plus she was so cranky all afternoon so I figured 3 minutes would be fine (plus I was leaving hte guy downstairs)...well it looks like we're on another 1.5 hour night to go to sleep today because she's not even close to sleeping.  The 1.5 hour thing to go to sleep starts so many problems (though she does nap with that) but then it whirlwinds into long naps and short nights.......and no matter how much I cut the nap, it doesn't matter.  So I am scared to see what I started.

I too am much like you.  I obsess over this sleep thing.  I think because they are so difficult to begin with that they just make us obsess....I wish I would just go with the flow more....and not worry so damn much but it's so hard when I've dealt with it for the past 22 months...and I don't see an end in sight!!!!!!!  i'll be glad the day I can put her in her bed, say goodnight and be out the door and KNOW she's down for the night (when does that happen around 10 years old?!?!)

Glad to hear your all feeling better!  And sleep is going well at the moment!!!!!!!

[sacmommy]

Have you ever tried not waking her from a long nap? I wonder what that would do. I hate waking Karina up to, and I have to do it almost every day. But when she was sick I wasn't waking her, or at least I was waiting up to 3 1/2 hrs, and she still would go down at her normal time at night! I know it's different when they are asleep. But I wonder if she just needs that extra sleep, and if her night sleep would be fine or better if I let her take the long naps.

How's Carmela been since the night it took her a long time to go to sleep? Did she get into the bad pattern you were expecting?