Author Topic: Ready to quit it all  (Read 3562 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline prncss

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 26
  • Location:
Ready to quit it all
« on: February 24, 2006, 10:59:00 am »
okay i give up. I am ready to quit parenting all together. My 4 mo son WILL NOT SLEEP!!!!!!!!! i have tried everything! he does not take a dummy and has neve taken one. for about a week I had him on EASY but he got off when i returned to work. He only flass to sleep if being fed at this point and the SECOND i put him down he is awake. We spend HOURS trying to get him to sleep and i just cant do ot anymore. I spent the ofther afternoon in tears over a nap that never took place. He wakes every 3 hrs in the night and it seems there is just no hope. I tried to have him cry it out a bit but that made my nerves frasyed and i spent several minutes screaming into my pillow. i jsut cant take this any more! How do i start all over and get this boy to sleep. He is sooooooooo cranky and i sure am not enjoying my time with him... we never get to have activity time cause it is spent trying to nap or being cranky and frustrated. Please help. Oh, the one thing i have not given up on is the routine before bed... warm bath, lullibye and feed...


[url=http://lafemmebonita.com][img]

Offline beccarman

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 29
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 625
  • happy families!!
  • Location: york, Uk
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2006, 11:02:16 am »
am in a rush but saw this and couldn't not post, hang in there someone from the sleep forum will help soon i'm sure and lots of other people have fab ideas too.

sending lots of hugs

keep your chin up, things will get better, i know that sounds trite but its true.

bec xxx

 :D


Offline Lucysmom

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 118
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 2449
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2006, 13:00:58 pm »
Hi There -

Firstly, {{{HUGS}}} to you!  Secondly, we will work this out!  I remember very well that at 4 months my dd was the same.  I had been doing accidental parenting up to that point and then it stopped working!  :o  I was so frustrated!

In order to get a clearer picture, can I ask some questions?

I know you are feeding to sleep right now, but has he ever been able to consistently fall asleep independently?  If yes, how did you teach him to fall asleep?
How long ago did you return to work?  Where does he go during the day?  Are they committed to sticking to EASY?
What does his daily routine look like roughly?
What kind of baby is your little guy?  In the EASY forum there is a "get to know your baby" quiz.  Maybe take that and see what it reveals.

Also, for you, you sound really stressed and quite down.  I remember posting very similar posts and I finally was diagnosed with ppd.  I am not saying you have it, but maybe just pop over to the ppd board and read the signs of ppd and see what you think.  Getting diagnosed (after denying it for ages) and getting on meds helped me face these sleep issues.  Just a thought.

OK, I will be here today so whenever you get a chance to reply I will try my hardest to reply quickly.  Again, {{{HUGS}}}!

Offline Kimberly®

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 126
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4288
  • Location: North Bay, Ontario Canada
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2006, 16:07:17 pm »
{hugs} we will work this out, it is possible.
the most importent question I can think to ask that hasn't been asked already is, what do you do for child care? and are they work with your routine?

If this is the only day care you can get forwhatever reason I think its importent you ask them what they do and then work with them, while some daycares can't follow EASY due to high volume they all have some sort of routine, if you know what that is send it here and we'll help you work your EASY around their routine so that you LO isn't just getting confused.

Please don't give us I know how hard it is to get your LO to sleep, I remember being the same way with my LO, and it is possable, and you've found the best place to find help, you'll have friends here :)
Kimberly

Offline Lªuren

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 206
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3311
  • yummy!!
  • Location: Scotland, UK
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2006, 19:38:45 pm »
Hi prncss  {{{hugs}}}}


From reading your other posts you have had a lot to contend with, stick with it and it will get better. If you can get that informationposted help will be with you ASAP.

 :-*
Lauren x


Offline Lucysmom

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 118
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 2449
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 16:19:40 pm »
Hi - I hope you don't mind that I paste the contents of the pm you just sent me.  I think it would help to have as many people evaluating your situation as possible. 


Quote (selected)
Helllo,
I am sorry it took so long to respond to your post. I have had work and just life getting hectic. I wanted to answer your questions though because I really wnat to get my little guy to sleep! My hubby is ready to sell him! 

Forst I returned to work 4 weeks ago. I work night shifts. I care for my son during hte day. The idea was to nap as he naps and I can go to work at night. My hubby cares for him at night. My hubby is not committed to anything... (EASY included) WHat seems to work for me does not work for my hubby. In fact his hang up is that I am breast feeding and he feels like that is why my son wont sleep for him... because he cant breast feed... (I supplement as well because i have never been a great milk producer)
Daily routine is: Upo between 5 and 6. Nap at 7 for 30 min then 0930 for 30 minutes then 1pm for at least an hour is not longer then nap at 5pm then bath, lullibye and feed to sleep. I know the feed to sleep is bad. No 2 days are the same though... sleep is inconsistant. asleep by 8pm up at 1am and again at 5am.... then the next night asleep at 8pm up at 10pm and again every 2 hrs...
Can this be solved? He sleeps in a basket by the bed... i cant even think about the crib at this point! The minute i put him down anywhere he is up. I cnat have him sleep on me as much as I love it!
Thank you already for your advice and help. If there is more I can do I will try anything!

First of all, I don't know how you are managing working at night and only sleeping when your son sleeps.  When you are beyond exhausted it is so difficult to cope and think straight.  I take my hat off to you.  I know this is none of my business and I am sorry if I offend you, but is there any way for you to not have to work at nights?  I can completely understand wanting to spend every day with your son.  I just wonder if you are able to have real quality time with him considering the circumstances.  Since your dh is having a rough time coping at night, it also seems the situation is not working for him.  Perhaps he would be amenable to having a discussion about how the both of you could be happier?  I just feel terrible for you and I can sense the strain you are under.  You have my admiration.

At 4 months, he should be on or approaching the 4 hour easy.  So that means feeds every 3.5 or ideally 4 hours.  I don't know if he is feeding more often than that but if he is then I would really try to stretch him out so that he takes nice full feeds.  Otherwise he might actually need a feeding at night.

From what I gather from your post, it seems that he is overtired.  At 4 months, average awake time per cycle is 2 hours.  So 2 hours after he is up in the morning, put him down for a nap. So that means doing your wind down and having him in his cot at the two hour mark.  Watch his tired signs and if he is showing tired signs earlier put him down then.  But if he is not showing tired signs at two hours put him down anyway.  I don't know what kind of baby he is but some babies do not show tired signs or they are very fleeting and easy to miss and they enter into overtiredness quickly.  This is especially true with spirited babies.  It sounds like you can pretty much set a clock by him to predict when he will wake up, so do wake to sleep accordingly.  If he wakes at around 30 minutes, maybe go in and observe him and see what happens at the 30 minute mark.  Then once you know what happens, you can do wake to sleep for him for each nap.  For example, he may need some shushing and patting or his legs held down with gentle but firm pressure.  Or it could be something else entirely.  There are tons of posts about wake to sleep in the naps forum so I would encourage you to browse there.  Do wake to sleep for every nap.  It might take a while until you have success but keep at it.  Now if he wakes up anyway and you cannot get him back to sleep, keep activity very low key and short.  Then put him back down for another nap.  So it may look like EASASEASAS for a while and that is OK.  Some babies are just shortnappers and thankfully most do consolidate their sleeps at around 5-6 months but trying to help him along is a good thing. 

For all of his awake times during the day, I would not keep him up past 2 hours.  If his naps are short, then do EASASE and go with his flow while still trying to extend his naps.

The third nap of the day (the catnap) is the first that he will eventually drop so you can think of it as a freebie.  So if he falls asleep in the pram, go for a walk.  Or if he falls asleep in the car, go for a drive (and bring a book or magazines so that you can stop the car and read when he's sleeping  :) ).  You can use a prop for this sleep as it is just a catnap.  The rest of his sleeps should be in his cot. 

It also sounds like he is not falling asleep independently at this point.  Since he is 4 months old, you can do pu/pd if you find that pat/shush does not work for him.  Once he knows how to fall asleep on his own consistently this will help him sleep longer as he will know how to get himself back to sleep when he rouses a bit. 

What does your dh do when your ds wakes in the night?  That is unfortunate that he feels that the problem lies in the fact that he cannot breastfeed.  I am sure it is overwhelming for him having a crying baby.  Men are more inclined to want to "fix it" and get really frustrated and deflated when they cannot.  I know that you said he is not committed to anything, but surely he is not committed to sleepless and frustrating nights.  There are thousands of families who have their babies on EASY and have had success getting their babies to sleep better and just be happier during the waking hours.  Maybe if you concentrate on describing the end result of all of the sleep training and getting your son on easy he will come round to supporting you.  The issue is that in order for things to improve, you must be consistent.  So if you are training your son to go to sleep independently during the day, then your dh cannot rock him to sleep or feed him to sleep at night.  It will just confuse your son and will almost negate what you are working towards during the day.

Ok, I have written quite a bit here so will stop before you fall asleep reading it all!   :)  I really hope that I have not offended you at all.  I am just worried about you as it is not healthy for you to be sooo sleep-deprived.  {{{HUGS}}} to you and let me know how you're doing.

Offline beccarman

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 29
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 625
  • happy families!!
  • Location: york, Uk
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 16:24:08 pm »
prncss  - how are things going?

do let us know.

xxx


Offline Prncss Hubby

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 1
  • Location:
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 17:11:49 pm »
Hi All,

This literally is prncss' husband.  For whatever reason she used my e-mail account to register here instead of her own, or she did it on purpose.  I'm not a big fan of parenting from books, etc.; however, this forum is altogether different.  I don't remember it being this difficult with my three teen daughters, but that was altogether different circumstances...I was younger, a non-working mother, etc.  With prncss and I, this is out first and 18 years since my first...15 since my last.  So, essentially, it's all new for us both.

To answer some questions I came across:

We don't use childcare.  I work days and prncss works nights that way one of us is with him instead of placing him in childcare.  Unfortunately, what works for her doesn't work for me and vice versa.  We have tried to be consistent, but he knows if it's mom or dad there.  I'm not sure the detail to which the situation was explained, but I feel part of the problem is he's not in a crib yet.  He sleeps in a basinet next to our bed...quite often toward the end of the night in the bed.  I'm sure that's part of the problem.  Prncss is great with him, better than I am I think at times, but the first and foremost is to get him into the crib.  Maybe the rest will come, maybe not.  I know I got all of 3 hours sleep all of last night and, too, am at my whits end.

All suggestions and recommendations welcome.  I know it doesn't last forever, but it feels like it.  :(

Offline Lucysmom

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 118
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 2449
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 21:01:31 pm »
Hi –

Welcome to the Babywhisperer boards!  As you have already so astutely noted  :), these boards are different as is the philosophy of the original Babywhisperer, Tracy Hogg.  I commend you on not wanting to raise your son “by the book”.  Seems paradoxical but Tracy Hogg has written books and they are fantastic (closest thing to a baby user’s manual if you ask me  ;)), but the underlying essence of her books is that you need to listen to your baby and act accordingly.  There is no “one size fits all” if you know what I mean.  That being said, her philosophy is basically that she does not believe in leaving babies to cry it out and feels that one of the greatest gifts we can give our children is the gift of being able to fall asleep independently.  Things that are used to lull a baby into sleep are called “props”, and they include things like feeding to sleep, rocking, bouncing, etc.  From what I gather, your son is dependent on props to get to sleep.  Then when he has a partial awakening either during a nap or at night, he does not know how to get back to sleep.  The rocking, the boob, bottle, or whatever is no longer there and he believes he needs that thing in order to get back to sleep. 

I cannot have the full picture just by communicating online here, but I think your son is really overtired and this has a knock on effect of making it harder for him to fall asleep and stay asleep.  With adults, when we are really tired we can just crash within minutes.  With infants and small children, they get more riled up the more tired they are (it is actually a chemical thing – cortisol is released and it is almost like adrenaline).  So sleep begets sleep.  The better rested he is with his naps during the day, the better he will sleep at night. 

I also have had experience with my daughter when I was feeling a lot of anxiety that she could sense that and be upset.  I thought there was no way that this was true, but once I calmed down she calmed down considerably.  So it is possible that your son is sensing your very understandable apprehension and frustration.  Anything you can do to try to remain calm and collected would benefit both of you.  Easier said than done I know… :-\

I cannot stress enough that you and your wife must be on the same page about what to do about this situation.  If you are going to teach him independent sleep, then you must agree on a method and stick to it.  It must be done consistently or else your son will just get confused and this will undo all of the hard work you put in.  So things will be tough for a while once you start teaching him independent sleep, but it does not sound like things are that great right now.  So short term pain for long-time gain kind of thing….

I agree that your son probably should be sleeping in his crib.  But I don’t think that him sleeping in his crib will solve all of the sleep problems he is facing.  He needs to know how to fall asleep on his own. 

I don’t know if your wife has the book, The Babywhisperer Solves All of Your Problems, but definitely get a copy and look it over.  Tracy Hogg details two methods of teaching independent sleep – one is called pat/shush and the other is pick up/put down.

I stand by my advice from earlier today in my last post about needing naps, etc.  I really believe in the Babywhisperer techniques and it has made me a better mom.  I am able to understand my daughter’s needs and thus meet them.  And my husband is also happy with things.  We are not constantly guessing what the matter is with our daughter.  Indeed, she is a much less fussy baby as we can often anticipate her needs.

I really hope you and your wife can have a fruitful conversation about how to work towards improving things.  The fact that both of you love your son very much and want him to be well rested so that you can enjoy him even more is all that matters.  Keep your eyes on that ultimate goal and come together to make and execute a plan that is appropriate to both of you and your son.

Good luck and let me know how you are doing.  I will be thinking of you all.

Offline prncss

  • New & Learning The Ropes
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 26
  • Location:
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2006, 21:55:35 pm »
well, my hubby just called me at work and he had our son asleep and within minutes of putting him down, he is again awake. My hubby is frustrated and VERY tired. It is hard not to let that show... Our son does not know any better. I have looked at the PU/PD information and it seems overwhelmingly time consuming... I am not sure we can commit to it, but we both have said we are willing to try anything at this point. I agree that our son does not know independent sleep. We need him to learn it. I DONT think we have the tolerance for letting him cry it out. I know I am NOT tolerant of that... it causes my anxiety to go through the roof and i dont think it teaches our son anything.
I do have the book secrets of the baby wisperer... and to be honest,after reading it i felt like ai had no idea where to begin.
TOdays schedule looked like this:
Up at 0500 Eat
Activity
0800 sleep( feed to sleep)
Activivty
0900 awake
1030-12 sleep
1200 feed
Activity
2-415 sleep
5pm Feed
Activity
7PM Feed to sleep (2 bottles!!)
8pm Awake Hubby called me at work frustrated about his being awake
And at this point who knows what is going on. It is 10pm now

I just have no idea how to fix this.... I have printed out the informationb on PU/PD i will try that... I am just ready to give in at this point.


[url=http://lafemmebonita.com][img]

Offline Lªuren

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 206
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3311
  • yummy!!
  • Location: Scotland, UK
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2006, 22:47:27 pm »
Hi prncss

I have to agree with Lucysmom that your LO is overtired, therefore he is overstimulated by nap time and you are having to resort to feed to sleep.

At 4 months, he should be on or approaching the 4 hour easy.  So that means feeds every 3.5 or ideally 4 hours.  I don't know if he is feeding more often than that but if he is then I would really try to stretch him out so that he takes nice full feeds.  Otherwise he might actually need a feeding at night.

From what I gather from your post, it seems that he is overtired.  At 4 months, average awake time per cycle is 2 hours.  So 2  hours after he is up in the morning, put him down for a nap. So that means doing your wind down and having him in his cot at the two hour mark.  Watch his tired signs and if he is showing tired signs earlier put him down then.  But if he is not showing tired signs at two hours put him down anyway. 

I don't know what kind of baby he is but some babies do not show tired signs or they are very fleeting and easy to miss and they enter into overtiredness quickly.  This is especially true with spirited babies.  It sounds like you can pretty much set a clock by him to predict when he will wake up, so do wake to sleep accordingly.  If he wakes at around 30 minutes, maybe go in and observe him and see what happens at the 30 minute mark.  Then once you know what happens, you can do wake to sleep for him for each nap.  For example, he may need some shushing and patting or his legs held down with gentle but firm pressure.  Or it could be something else entirely. 

There are tons of posts about wake to sleep in the naps forum so I would encourage you to browse there.  Do wake to sleep for every nap.  It might take a while until you have success but keep at it.  Now if he wakes up anyway and you cannot get him back to sleep, keep activity very low key and short.  Then put him back down for another nap.  So it may look like EASASEASAS for a while and that is OK.  Some babies are just shortnappers and thankfully most do consolidate their sleeps at around 5-6 months but trying to help him along is a good thing. 

For all of his awake times during the day, I would not keep him up past 2 hours.  If his naps are short, then do EASASE and go with his flow while still trying to extend his naps.

The third nap of the day (the catnap) is the first that he will eventually drop so you can think of it as a freebie.  So if he falls asleep in the pram, go for a walk.  Or if he falls asleep in the car, go for a drive (and bring a book or magazines so that you can stop the car and read when he's sleeping  :) ).  You can use a prop for this sleep as it is just a catnap.  The rest of his sleeps should be in his cot. 

It also sounds like he is not falling asleep independently at this point.  Since he is 4 months old, you can do pu/pd if you find that pat/shush does not work for him.  Once he knows how to fall asleep on his own consistently this will help him sleep longer as he will know how to get himself back to sleep when he rouses a bit. 

After looking at your schedule for the day, I can see

Up at 0500 Eat 
Activity
0800 sleep( feed to sleep) 
Activity
0900 awake
1030-12 sleep
1200 feed
Activity
2-415 sleep
5pm Feed
Activity
7PM Feed to sleep (2 bottles!!)
8pm Awake Hubby called me at work frustrated about his being awake
And at this point who knows what is going on. It is 10pm now


Do you want to start your day this early(5am), if NOT this should be treated as a night feed and LO put back to sleep. If this is his 1st nap since 5am it is too long, look to start your wind down at 0645 for a 7am nap.  If he is fed at 5am then he should have another feed no later than 9am (4hrs), preferable not a feed to sleep at 8am - that is only 3hrs and for your LO age you are looking to feed nearer 4hr mark.


Does he always fall asleep on you and you put him in his crib? Or is there another way you have tried to get your LO to sleep? From experience with my own angel DS if I miss his sleep window and he becomes overtired he will cry out of frustration, to avoid this I always follow the same wind-down routine, 4 S's
Set the stage - prepare you LO room for sleep; remove stimulation, darken room, lullaby....
Swaddle - (I used to swaddle now I use a gro'bag with his arms swaddled)
Sitting - Quietly without any stimulation, and when necessary..
Shush-pat

Is there anyway you can start the 4 S's 15 -20min before a nap?


Please don't give in it WILL get easier, but it takes TIME & PATIENCE.

I don't want to bombard you with info. But you get the general idea of what we are saying.....

 :D3.5 - 4hrs between feeds, try and not feed to sleep
 :DTry 4 S's as your wind down routine, your LO is also old enough to handle PU/PD & Shush Pat
 :DYour LO can only stay up max. 2hrs - start wind down 15 - 20mins before the 2hr mark.
 :DMake sure you put your LO to sleep in his bed, not let him fall asleep elsewhere and transfer him asleep, he will wake wondering where he is and cry.
 :DYou and your hubby MUST be consistent - think about starting a log for a few weeks, if nothing else it will let you see the small improvements you will make on a daily basis, if something goes wrong, you can easily look back and see where or you can post it and we can try and help.


Lauren x
Lauren x


Offline Lªuren

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 206
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 3311
  • yummy!!
  • Location: Scotland, UK
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2006, 23:02:30 pm »
prncss & prncss hubby, "the goal"  is the type of routine you are aiming for... need to go again.....
Lauren x


Offline Lucysmom

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 118
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 2449
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2006, 23:59:17 pm »
Yes, look at the final column in that attachment and that is the routine you should be working towards.  Don't look at the other columns as they are confusing and there has been lots of debate on this site about what they mean.  But in your case all you need to concern yourself with is working towards the routine entitled "the goal". 

I am sorry if what I have written is overwhelming and too wordy.  One of my faults.... :-[

With pu/pd, I would "study up" on it and post questions as they arise on the pu/pd board.  I remember reading that someone actually made up a poster and hung it over the baby's cribs with the basic steps of how to do pu/pd and then another poster reminding herself why she was doing pu/pd.  I always thought that was clever.

The sleep interview has great information about pu/pd so make sure you include that in your study materials!  ;)

Ok, that's it from me if you can believe it  ;D!!!  Let us know how you are getting on.

Offline CharlotteandCharlie

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 34
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 1432
  • These moments make my heart sing!
  • Location: AB, Canada
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2006, 03:53:58 am »
My goodness you ladies are wonderful.  I have just two bits to add.  If your lo is a really loud crier (mine was a borderline screamer) ear plugs really take the edge off.  That is a piece of advice I got from someone on this site and it really helped me not think of her as the devil.   ;D.

It may help you to consentrate while doing pu/pd instead of having your ear drums rattle.

I really look forward to following this tread.
Charlotte mom to
Charlie Anne August 7, 2005
Campbell Rose March 27, 2007
And wife to the man of my dreams.

Offline beccarman

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 29
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 625
  • happy families!!
  • Location: york, Uk
Re: Ready to quit it all
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2006, 17:57:36 pm »
i agree with the posts here re: don't let lo get too tired and both be consistent, these are difficult but very important. the good thing is you both feel like you want to change the way things are and thats a start...really am hoping you can use some of the techniques on this thread and in the sleep forum to get some good results soon.
bec xxx