Several questions about 3 hour EASY and an 8PM bedtime

[MatthewsMommy]

Hi,
I've posted before as my son Matthew is still waking up in middle of night (anywhere between 1-3 AM) and then again at 5:30. He's on 3 hour EASY but want to change him to 4 hour as he will be 4 mos in 10 days. I followed the advice here which was to get him up earlier in the morning and make him nap better and that's what I've been doing but I have a few questions:

First of all - he goes to bed about 8-8:30 after his last feed - I've read that it's good to put a baby to bed early (7-8ish) but why? My best friend INSISTS his bedtime is too early and that's why he's waking and I should keep him up until 10 and feed him - so of course I told her about dream feed - (well that doens't work for us - he still gets up at night only an hour later - like 3:30). But she says I am nuts to put him to bed so early and she never heard of that and everything I have read says a baby needs to get to sleep between 7-8 (some even earlier!)

Second, she also says (now she's never read the BW and has a 2.5 year old and whatever she did worked...) that by me feeding him every 3 hours he's eating on demand and that's why he wakes at night as he's used to a 3 hour feed. That makes sense so my question is I know Tracy said that it "tanks them up" during day but what my friend says also makes sense that maybe he expects it and why he's waking? If someone could explain Tracy's theory on this better as I am just so confused. I am trying to change him to 3.5 hours now and move him to 4 in the next 2 weeks.

My third question - should I increase his ounces (he gets 6 now) per feeding when I change him to 3.5 and then 4 since he's going longer? He's been on 6 oz probably a month or more per feeding.

Also I've tried the DF and it doesn't work and I end up feeding him again in the middle of the night so he's getting an EXTRA feeding which I don't like or think is good. I've tried soothing him with his pacifier, patting him, etc. and this goes on for over 2 hours and really it's just not worth it - i'd rather skip the DF and get up, feed him and get back to bed since he wakes anyway. I do think he's hungry as the times are different.

Any light on these items would really be helpful. Again here's his routine for now:

1-3:30 AM- wakes - 4oz feed
5:30 wake (if he ate at 1 I feed him, otherwise I try to get him to sleep until 7ish)
7AM - 6 oz feed
8:30 - nap for about 1.5 to 2 hours (he used to only nap for 45 min so am thrilled!)
10 6 oz feed
11:30  again another 1.5 to 2 hour nap
1 - 6 oz feed
2:30 - nap
4 - 6 oz feed
cat nap for about 45 min in his swing about 6ish while I make dinner
7- bath
7:30- final feed of 6oz
8PM - bed
I've tried a dream feed and he STILL wakes only an hour later (and I did the DF at 11ish)

Thanks!
Lauren

[teezee]

i definately don't think that lo's should go to bed that late - it's not fair to them just to 'try' and get yourself a little more sleep - which more times than not doesn't work anyway - unless over a period of time your lo gets exhausted and 'sleeps in' b/c of it - and i guarantee you it's probably not a settled sleep...from 11 to 11 - there is going to be early morning wakings sometime during the am it is natural for babies to wake earlier...

i don't think that your lo necessarily 'expects' to be fed every three hrs during the night unless you have been feeding him through the night and showing him that it is ok to 'expect' this - i did that for awhile b/c dd was small and she was waking every four hrs on the dot for a feeding...bad mistake on my part.  when you feed lo in the night does he take a full feeding?  is he eating almost or just as much with all of his daytime feedings??  as lo's grow and their bellies grow - they are able to hold more bm/formula and by feeding with less time in between they aren't learning to sustain their food, with more time they are learning to hold themselves over for longer periods and can take more b/c they aren't as full from the previous feeding as they have had more time to digest their food. does that answer that question?

definately if your lo will take more in the bottle than go for it! feed him til he's full!!

it is possible that the df doesn't work for your lo...it happens...but...just to make sure - when you did try it lo stayed totally asleep?? have you tried doing it an hour earlier?  if so like i said it sometimes just doesn't work and if he is waking once a night for a feeding at that age is totally acceptable as long as it's not affecting daytime oz/feeding.

your routine looks pretty good to me - but i would definately start lengthening ( i know you said you were..) his A times!  start 10 or 15 minutes at a time and every few days increase it a bit...if he doesn't seem hungry when he wakes if it has been 3 and a half hrs then push another 10 minutes. when first increasing there may be feedings that he is starving at the 3 hr mark, and then some feedings he can go to the 4 hr mark.  it is all about reading your lo, and if he is not ok with it he will let you know 

[MatthewsMommy]

hi,
thanks so much for all your answers. I just posted on the feeding area about the DF and now it's become a huge problem (i kept trying it for 4 nights you can read that post there as now he's waking more).

To answer your questions:
1. I feed him less when he wakes in middle of night - 4oz versus 6 and he seems fine with it. I do wonder if he'd sleep longer than to 5:30 (his usual wake time) if I gave him a full feeding? I guess my theory was I didn't want him to think he'd get a full meal in middle of night and would maybe stop waking. So far not working though! LOL!
2. I do the DF about 10:30ish as his last feed is 7-7:30 and that seems to work. I can't go earlier or he won't be hungry, right?
3. He doesn't stay asleep at all when I do a DF. I am quiet - don't turn on light, don't talk, don't unswaddle but he still wakes.
4. I've been trying to give him 7 oz but he won't take it and the 1-2x he did he spit up pretty bad. He's pretty full after 5-6 oz and doesnt' always take the full 6.

CAn he go longer between feedings without me increasing his formula ounces if he won't take more? I will keep trying to increase the time. Also, no I don't feed him every 3 hours at night. If he wakes several times (like last night) I just keep trying to get him to sleep. He was up all night last night and he had a DF at 10:30- I didn't feed him until 4AM when I couldn't take it anymore. However I wonder if he was up all night last night (he woke for his "DF" too) cause of the DF now? I am more exhausted now that i am doing the DF than before.

Anyway what you wrote makes sense and thanks for clarifying. His 8PM too late for his bedtime?

Thanks again!
Lauren

[teezee]

don't start feeding him more at night, slowly reduce even the amount you are giving if bf or if formula fed water it down a bit and he will naturally start taking more during the day...i will repeat - slowly - it takes time to get adjusted! if you start getting him used to taking full feedings at night he will stop eating so much during the day and that is not good as he will wake more and more for feedings at night the more you feed him.  you want him to take more calories during the day.  at this age lo may need a short feeding at night - that is why i say slowly get him off of them - but i would definately deal with the wakings for now til you have a 4 hr routine established, as he will be able to last longer between feedings and take more at a feeding. also, you can try for the df at 9:30 or 10 it may work it may not - and you are just topping him up so it shouldn't necessarily be a FULL feeding at that time - doesn't have to be 4hrs apart anyway.

the df is meant to do it while he is still asleep. if he is that restless of a sleeper have you tried just feeding him still in the crib - haven't tried it myself as i bf, but have heard of ppl doing it this way, and as long as he stays asleep and relaxed shouldn't really need a burp anyway.  just a thought. if it still doesn't work for you - i haven't had a chance to read your other post yet sorry!...maybe you want to stop the df, maybe it doesn't work with your lo.

again, once you start eliminating some of the night calories and get to a constant 4 hr routine, he will naturally take more during the day, so keep offering the six ounces don't force it if he doesn't want it, he knows when he is full...you may be surprised one day!

i also think that maybe you want to try an earlier bedtime for a few days to try and get things back on track - he is probably a little overtired with all the night wakings - it's not restful for you or him or anyone else in the house.

i will be away for a little while but there are great mods here that will be glad to help you if you need anything!! good luck!