Author Topic: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF  (Read 2771 times)

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Offline Mom2katiebug

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Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« on: March 11, 2006, 17:16:00 pm »
DD takes her bedtime bottle around 7pm and will naturally wake 4hrs later for her "DF".  Since DH and I are usually exhausted, we go to bed and wait for her to wake/cry and let us know it's time for the DF.  Since she's waking and calling for it, does that not make it a DF?  Is the idea that we're supposed to keep her asleep?  Once she gets the bottle, she drains it quickly, eyes closed the entire time and nods right back to sleep.  But, she does wake and cry for it.  Could this be the why were having other night waking issues?
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Offline Lªuren

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2006, 19:22:05 pm »
Hi Casey, it not a dumb question becasue to be honest I am not up on d/feeding I never stuck with it becasue of the reason you gave. I am always in bed early and setting the alarm for a d/feed made it feel like a dream feed.

I would think after reading other posts on d/fing that you could try going in slightly earlier when you know Katie is still sleeping to see if that makes a difference, although you probably won't see any results of this for a few days to a week. 

It really sounds like she is in the habit of waking for the d/f, when I would have through for her age she should be able to go at least 2 or 4am (but every baby is different). 

I will 'talk' to Leahs mom and see what she thinks.

Lauren x
Lauren x


Offline Tammy: Ethan & Kaden's Mom

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2006, 21:37:21 pm »
I think because your dd is waking up and crying, it is really a nightwaking.  My ds was the same way before we started with the df.  He would wake, cry, we'd fix the bottle, go upstairs, and get him, and once we settled down with him and the bottle, he'd close his eyes, eat, and fall back asleep.

When we instituted the df, probably around 4 months or so, I would feed him at 7 pm, then put him to bed.  Then I would do the df at 10 pm.  I personally didn't want to stay awake until 11 pm like the book suggests.  I would just go in, turn the light on the dimmest possible so I could see, then pick him up, sit down in the chair, and pop the bottle in his mouth.  He wouldn't wake up, but he would eat the whole thing.  Then I'd just put him back down afterwards. 

You might want to try setting your alarm for 30 minutes before she normally wakes, and then do the df.  As with anything, I'm sure it will take a few days, but I bet she gets the hang of it. 

Good luck!



Offline Leah's Mom

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2006, 15:23:18 pm »
I agree with Tammy. I would try and feed her before her "normal" awake time. See if that helps. Does she wake for the bottle continually throughout the night? If so, then you may have a habit/problem on your hands. Let me know what her schedule looks like along with nightwakings.
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Offline Mom2katiebug

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 15:56:10 pm »
Well, things are really crazy with me going back to work last week.  We don't really have a routine because she's not napping at daycare.  But, pre-daycare we were doing this:

E/A 7am 
S     9am
A    10:30
E/A  11am
S    1:30
E/A  3pm
S     5 or 5:30 for 30 - 45 min or so
A    Bath, start bedtime winddown
E   7pm, then diaper change, jammies, sleepy winddown and bed

Wake for bottle at 11pm - great feed
Wake up 3am, replug paci
Then continuous wakeups until 7am when we feed again.  She never really settles into a deep sleep.  If we feed her a second ON bottle, she doesn't seem to wake as much (but still wakes plenty of times) and she absolutely won't eat breakfast.  She'll go to 10 or 11am before eating again.  So, we've worked to shift the "long period" to the early AM hours.  Am actually contemplating shifting the long period to the late PM hours since she sleeps so soundly at this time.  Then when she hits that restless period, give her the ON feed and it might cut the wakings a bit.  But it does mean that my and DHs sleep is interrupted right in the middle of the night. But, could it be worse than what we're currently doing? 

She was doing a GREAT job putting herself to sleep - maybe once a day would need help, sometimes just a hand on her belly, sometimes just a jiggle.  Now, because of the changes, she needs assistance most times. 

Yesterday was a bit odd with naps and feeds, and as a result, she had her bedtime bottle at 6pm and took half a feed.  Then she woke at 9:30 hungry.  But after that we didn't feed her again until 7am - so she went over 9 hours without a bottle.  I know she can do the long period cuz she's been doing for about 3 weeks now.  Plus when we have fed her ON, she'll take half a feed, still be restless and not eat breakfast.

Was beginning to believe that her wakings were related to gas.  She can really rip them off during those hours.  And, since her last bottle is around 10pm, it will have passed through her stomach by 2am.  Then her tummy is empty and you know how when you're tummy is empty, it can fill with some air that gets trapped?  I'm wondering if this is what's happening.  Not sure how to find out or fix it...

Let me know what else you need.
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Offline Leah's Mom

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2006, 19:40:27 pm »
Well, the wake ups could be related to gas or it could just be an irritated stomach from all the milk she digests in the night. This is what was happening to my DD. She was eating so much that the milk was causing wakings - their digestive systems are suppose to be shut off at night, but when we feed - it has to work in overtime - causing restless sleep. How old is your DD? I would maybe suggest cutting out the DF. It may take a few weeks to adjust. She may take a night feed for a few weeks until her calories switch over to daytime. You may want to see the post about the DF on the top of this forum. Hang in there! I know it's tough. My DD woke at night for the bottle until she was 10 months old.  :o If you curious as to how I stopped it check out this thread. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0
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Offline Lªuren

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2006, 20:18:19 pm »
Casey, I've just been thinking...

Do you know why Katie gets so gassy? Does it happen after feeding her? If, so what type of bottle do you use?

Calum used to be really windy at nights, for a while we thought he had colic so I started buying anti-colic bottles, i.e. ones that unscrew at the bottom and have a vent to allow the air out the bottle while he sucks. When he is really going for it the bottle makes a whistling sound, so it must work.

As she is nearing 4.5months has she started to extend her A time more to 2.5hrs, or has that happened at daycare anyway?

Did you try the d/feed earlier whist she was still sleeping?


Anyway, I am still thinking .....


......how much does Katie take at 7pm? I am throwing about ideas here, another thing I do that works is I 'split' the last feed to get more in him. So, he gets between 3 - 5oz before bath (or until he stops sucking and starts fussing), he gets bathed, massaged and the rest of his feed (in the meantime I top the bottle back up) - he takes between 10 - 13oz some nights.   It could also be that she was not hungry after her 9hr stretch because her stomach had shrunk (I read this somewhere) and needs to fill gradually - I suppose like us after a heavy meal the nught before. Calum is not a great breakfast eater either and I usually have to top him off with  fruit and cereal. I also wait 30 - 45mins for his wake time before feeding.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 20:27:48 pm by Calums_Mum »
Lauren x


Offline Kimberly®

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2006, 20:21:56 pm »
I'd also suggest dropping the dreamfeed.
A big part of the problem is that she isn't getting those much needed naps during the day, I would also question, if she's eating more often at night, what her eating is like at daycare. It almost sounds like she's not getting enough food somewhere.
How old is your LO now? does she get any solids at all? Have you brought the nap problem to the attention of the daycare workers? if so what have they said?
This is big change for your LO and its understandable with the change in routine and the new things she's learning she's more restless.
I'd also ask what bottles you use. Have you tried disposables? We use Platex advance disposables for our LO or she gets nasty gas, try giving her Oval in her bottle or even after it.
Kimberly

Offline Mom2katiebug

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2006, 21:02:15 pm »
Thank you all for your thoughts.  I'll try to add what I can, but Katie is wearing her crankypants today.  I'm so tired and DH is out of town, so it's been a tough day! 

We started with Avent bottles and Katie's toots would echo through the house!  We switched to the Playtex disposable system with the collapsible liners and it improved dramatically.  

She usually passes some gas throughout the day, but not ALL the time and she doesn't have to struggle, bunch up her legs, etc.  I noticed this a couple of times when I've slept in her room that after her first wakeup that occurs at 4hr past the DF, she gets gassy.  She cries out as she passes it, is bunching up her legs, and not to be gross, but it's much louder than her other toots - like there's more coming out at once or something.  She's also very tooty during her breakfast bottle, stopping to pass the gas.  Again, she's bunching her legs, crying out and it's quite loud and (if this make sense) forceful.   :-[ :-[  Sorry, it's really probably TMI!!!  But, once she gets it out, either during or shortly after the breakfast bottle, she's fine for the day.  I don't know if Gripe Water would help with this or not.  But, if I have to get up and give it to her at 2am it's not the prefered solution (but would be better than the current situation).  Oh, we put Mylicon in every bottle to prevent gas as well.

I'm sure that her night wakings could be from a number of different things, but I can't help but wonder if this early morning gas is a problem for her (especially since she cries when passing it).  So, then what's causing it?  Either not burping at the DF which Tracy says they don't need.  Or, it's the empty tummy "syndrome" where her tummy gets some air in it once the DF bottle passes through.  Then it stays that way until her breakfast bottle "pushes" the air through her system.  

We've tried to do the DF before she wakes for it and we're successful for 3 nights, but last night she woke up before we gave it to her.  :(  Other than this feeding at 10/11pm, she doesn't get another feed until morning at 7am - so going 9 hours although waking up at 10/11, 2/3 and then sporatically thereafter.  If we drop the DF, would you recommend an early morning feed or nothing from bedtime at 7p til breakfast at 7am?  She does eat well at the DF - usually 6oz.  Although now, aside from her breakfast which can be 4-5 oz, she's been eating close to 6 oz. in all her bottles.  She eats 5-6 oz at daycare at each feed, but sometimes they'll feed before 4hrs and she'll take another full feed (she's had some crying during the adjustment and probably burning some extra calories).  So her daily total intake is between 25-30 oz.  Her weight is 16 lbs. and I know the guideline is 2 oz per pound, but she's never eaten that much.  Also, if I said she eats better during the night, I meant that it's more efficient, less distracted.  She can take 45 minutes during the day and anything will distract her - even the change in lighting because the sun goes behind a cloud.   ::)

She's 4.5MO and we haven't started solids.  Tried 2 bites of applesauce last week (Tracy said fruits are easier to digest than grains) but it tied her tummy in knots.  So, we'll give it another go in a couple more weeks.  But, with her eating almost 6oz per bottle, we still have some room to add formula. 

Oh, and don't get me started on napping at daycare.  I'm not happy with the facility we have, but can't change until June (although I'm still looking).  She's there for about 7 hours a day and one day slept for a total of 1 hr: one nap of 25 minutes, one of 40 minutes.  When DH picked her up, she fell asleep on the way home and stayed asleep once arriving home for a total nap of 2.5 hours.  They won't do as I ask for her naps (give in to quickly) and will let her sleep in the bouncy seat.  Still will only sleep for very short periods of time.  Katie is spirited when it comes to sleep and I get that it's controlled chaos most of the time and they can't spend 20 minutes helping her sleep, but there must be some middle ground and when I asked them, "how can we get her more daytime sleep?"  The only thing they said was, "we'll keep trying."  I don't think they have a clue about infant sleep at all. 

So, I know the naps are contributing, but we've had this restlessness problem for a long time - like December or something.  For a while I thought it was Katie's paci addiction, but she can stay asleep earlier in the night without it. 

Sorry for this being so long, but you gals had great suggestions, and I wanted to "chat" more about them all.  Thanks again.  I'm going bonkers with this.  Especially starting back to work.  I don't know how it's all going to fit.  I'm physically tired all the time which pushes me to my emotional limits.  Add the rollercoaster of daycare - especially since I"m not happy with the facilty right now.  Now I have the intellectual demands of a job and all the stress that goes along with reviewing/analyzing/negotiating contracts and pricing.  I'm only part-time right now, but April I'll be full-time.  It is definitely taking it's toll...
"Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you also have an obligation to be one."  - Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline Mom2katiebug

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2006, 21:04:40 pm »
Oh one more thing about A times.  Katie usually has a shorter A time in the morning - about 2hrs - then can go longer in the afternoon, say 3hrs, then shorter again. Although with daycare, she's getting too long of A times and not enough sleep.
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Offline Kimberly®

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2006, 22:08:32 pm »
2 and 3 hour A time may be too long, but if she's doing it and still napping effectivly then we'ed need to look at other factors aswell.
If she's only 4.5 months wait another month (at least) for solids. Especially if she had problems with the apple sauce. You seem to be doing all that you need to but its possible she's overtired. When they get overtired it effects all their sleep time.
If you drop the df try pu/pd or pat/shush when she wakes. Try not to feed till at least 3:30am if you can. You can then work on ending that feed as she settles into the new routines.
As for your daycare situation, thats a tough one, but I would suggest you tell them what you expect, tell them your not happy. It seems unreasonable for them to have her up as long as they do. Talk to everyone there untill you get results.
Kimberly

Offline Leah's Mom

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2006, 02:12:12 am »
Oh, I completey understand the Daycare situation. Leah is in daycare too. Where do they put her down at? Is it possible to put her down in a quiet place? Some centers have a room somewhere. Then maybe you could bring in a sound machine to drown out the sounds from the other kids? How long has she been there? It took Leah about a month to get the hang of napping there. As for work, it gets easier. Hang in there!
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Offline Mom2katiebug

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2006, 03:20:52 am »
I think the naps might improve - she took 3 today, but they were super-short at 20 minutes, 40 minutes and 35 minutes - so no deep sleep for her.  But this is an improvement over 1 nap lasting 20 minutes.  It's been just over a week, so everything is still really new.  But, to be honest, I think she really likes all the action of the daycare. 

Do you think I should compensate for the lack of daytime sleep and put her to bed for the night early?  She only does daycare 3 days, so do you think we could have two routines:  one for daycare days; one for non-daycare days?
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Offline Lªuren

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2006, 15:19:16 pm »
I have updated this to include stopping the habitial wakings
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.new#new
Lauren x


Offline Leah's Mom

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 01:53:01 am »
I would definitley put her to bed earlier if she had bad naps. For awhile you may have two schedules. But I think she will eventually adapt to the change of daycare.
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Offline Lªuren

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2006, 13:09:37 pm »
Casey how are you getting on with/without dreamfeeding Katie?
Lauren x


Offline Mom2katiebug

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Re: Embarassingly Dumb Question about DF
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2006, 01:46:45 am »
Oh...our schedule is all over the board.  But yesterday was a good day. She didn't sleep at all at daycare, but took a 2.5 hr nap when she got home, was up for 1.25 hrs and then down for the night at 6pm.  I "DF" her at 9pm because of the weird feed times and she didnt' wake until 3:30am!  I actually woke about 10 minutes before her and had to go check on her cuz I was sure something was wrong.  We fed her at 3:30am and she slept until we woke her at 7am.  Totally a great night if I hadn't been striken with insomnia (I can't win?!?!?!?   ::))  Oh, she was SO tired that she fell asleep with her paci, but after her 9pm bottle and her 3:30am bottle she didn't have it.

Don't know what the magic was whether it was limited daytime sleep (had been targeting 3.75 hours), all the comotion of daycare, the no paci thing or what but I was glad we had it.  Am not counting on it to continue and really have no plan since I'm not sure why it happened!
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