Author Topic: Several questions on continued night wakings for 4 mo old - binkie, swaddle...  (Read 3776 times)

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Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi,
I have a few questions am hoping someone can help with! My son is 4 mos and I've been moving him to 4 hour EASY - we are almost there but there are a few bumbs in the road as he is still waking at night, more than before, last night it was almost every hour - night before he slept from 9 to 4:30 so I never know what I am going to get. He's still not napping long enuf so he often wakes well before a feed, has activity until his feed and then after he eats is TIRED so am trying to get that to change but it's difficult. His naps are maybe an hour if I am lucky. I have tried to up his feeds once ounce (from 6-7) but he rarely will eat 7 so he's getting less formula in the day now. He is not on solids (am not doing that until he's 6 mos and he's formula fed exclusively).

Here are a few of my issues:

1. he's still being swaddled. My pedi wants me to unswaddle him now and we've tried but he won't go to sleep - if I need to stop how do I wean him off this?
2. he uses a binkie to go to sleep but once asleep he doesn't wake for it however when he wakes at night or naps he needs me to put it back in for him to go back to sleep - is this a prop and if so how do I wean?

Also do not want to wean from both at same time of course.

I can't really post a schedule cause now the times change all the time, although we are on Day 14 of the transition from 3 to 4 hour EASY and it's really getting harder to follow as his night wakings are worse AND he won't nap for long - just now I put him down at 8:30 for nap as he was super tired and he's up again - Paci won't work and he is smiling and wanting to play so then it starts all over where he'll be tired for his next feed and fall asleep after that and won't sleep long.

I am at my wits end with these wakings and now his schedule is all messed up and I can't seem to "right it". He used to sleep thru the night when he was about 6 weeks old and again at 8 weeks - now it seems to be getting worse and worse each week and I thought by 4 mos this would be better?

Would love some advice! thanks!
Lauren

Offline teezee

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i didn't stop swaddling my lo until around 8 months! she was spirited and definately needed it - you know what your lo needs and do it if it works for you! out of curiousity why does the dr want you to stop??

about the paci - that is more of a question for the props board - or maybe someone else has further insight on that issue - i know if my lo wakes i put it in for her too...which she has stopped waking at night for some time now so i haven't needed to resort to that anymore.

it sounds like your lo is overtired - are you going from 3 to 4 hrs gradually.  at 4 months i made the mistake of thinking dd would just 'get it' and go to 4 hrs with no problem.  boy was i wrong!!!  your lo may need a gradual extension of 10-15 min every few days or even every few weeks if he is not ready yet.  i understand about having a routine that is crazy in the 3 to 4 transition..like it was yesterday in fact! so i totally sympathise with the situation.  one day it will just click and fall into place if that gives you any hope?!

it really does sound as if your lo is overtired - and i do think a more gradual extension to the routine would help..how many time are you feeding at night?  if he is getting more calories at night and is used to it now, i also know from experience it is impossible to get those extra calories in during the day and, i too struggled with this for months.  the info is out there, lots of great info about night feedings which i can point you in the direction of but i do need a bit more info from you. 

could you pls also post a routine - i know it's whacky - but try to post say - yesterdays' routine and i'll see if i can make some sense of it (post night wakings too!)

hope you have a better night tonight!!
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Tawnia,
Thank you for replying.

Here are some answers to your questions. My pedi wanted me to stop swaddling my DS because she feels he's 1. too old and 2. will start to roll over soon and then the swaddle (we use the Miracle Blanket) becomes a blanket in the crib and that's not good.
I will look on the props board about the binkie.

I have to be honest, am extremely frustrated. My DS was up again all night last night. I am at my wits end and honestly cannot keep doing this - I am almost 40 and it's too much for me to handle. I am a walking zombie. I also noticed since i've been reading these boards/books his night wakings have gotten worse so I honestly sometimes feel to just go back to what I was doing prior (I followed EASY since he was born but I never used to wake him from naps or morning which I do now...) as whatever I keep trying to do (like getting him on the 4 Hour easy, making sure he's up at 7AM even if he was just up at 5:30...) is making things worse.

Anyway, back to his schedule. I have been slowly getting him to the 4 hour EASY and am on day 14 of the transition (according to the BW Questions book where it tells you how to transition in 15 min increments every few days). He can go about 4 hours for first feed but not much more than 3 hrs 15 for rest - sometimes 3 and a half - just depends so these all change which is again why things are all out of wack. Last night he ate an hour earlier than usual before bed so I gave a DF and that didn't help as you can see! I don't do DF's as they started more trouble for me and stopped that and do not wish to do them.

Here is yesterday's schedule: (I offer him 7 oz each feed, he won't always take that so I wrote what he will eat - I only offer 4 oz for night feedings in hopes he will stop them!)
Night wakings - 11PM, 1:30 AM, 2:30 AM (fed 4 oz formula), 4:30 AM (again fed 4 oz, wouldn't go to sleep, was screaming - usually don't do such close feedings but nothing else worked), 6AM - up, gave paci until 8AM
8AM- 6 oz feed (usually eats between 7 and 8AM)
8:30 - sleep because was up so much so everything to messed up(why again this whole EASY thing is really frustrating me cause if ONE thing is off seems it's all off...)
Woke up at 9- went back down again at 10ish until noon
noon - ate 7 oz
2PM - nap for 1.5 hours
3:30- 7 oz feed
5:30-6 - cat nap (he gets very tired around here)
6:30- 8 oz (offered this cause he was eating an hour earlier than usual - he usually gets his last feed between 7:30-8 and now that we are on 4 hour EASY it's earlier which may be my problem)
8:30 bed (he is not ready to go to sleep earlier although wonder if he should go to bed at 6:30 cause he's so tired then but then he'd really miss a later feed and get up???)
I don't DF but did last night cause he ate early and gave him 6 oz at 11
Was up again all night ever 2 hours like night before and he woke at 6:30 AM again today (after a 5AM feed) and I fed him again at 7AM hoping to get things rolling and he went down for a nap about 9 which is where I am now.....

I don't like him getting those night feedings - it used to be just one feeding but now he's getting 2 since he's up so much. The paci is getting worse too where he can't go back to sleep without it at night. He can fall asleep when I put him down without it but not when he wakes and can't go back to sleep. Also something else that's changed, we used to be able to put him down to bed and he'd coo and talk to himself and go right to sleep now he cries for a bit and protests.

I just feel we are going the wrong way in all this and I don't know what to do. I've read both BW books and this board and again it seems to be getting worse for me and I can't function in the day with this little bit of sleep and really need some answers.

Thanks so much!
Lauren

Offline teezee

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since lo seems somewhat overtired i would try an earlier bedtime for the next few nights to try to get him back on track.

as far as feeding earlier in the evening due to bedtime - we still do that when last nap and bedtime don't perfectly coincide and doesn't seem to cause much trouble (i also worried it would) once we got our other sleep issues under control.  i understand your frusteration with everything as the transition from 3 to 4 hr easy is definately not an easy one - we had major issues here too.  the best thing i can say - is stay consistant and always read your lo's cues- if he's hungry at 3 1/2 hrs feed him!  if he's not hungry and is sleeping til 4 1/2 hrs let him! he will let you know he is hungry by waking up - although i wouldn't let him nap for more than 2 1/2 hrs though.


it sounds like maybe there could be some tummy troubles for your lo too...waking often and not being able to resettle..are you giving anything new to lo? motrin? advil? etc.?...have u tried eliminating caffeine, or dairy, or citrus out of your diet (not all at once of course but say try a week off of caffeine and so on and see if it has any effect?)...

as far as the swaddling - i would stick with it if i were you - i am not a doctor but when i had a concern my dr told me to stick with what worked.  i will post a link for the aussie swaddle which can be tricky to figure out in the beginning but was  a godsend for us as she was still secure but had a bit more movement.

also - looking at your routine - even if it is just a random day - the amount of morning sleep can really affect night wakings.  i understand he is tired after a long night of waking but maybe try keeping him up a little bit longer and give one solid nap rather than just random napping in the am. and like i said earlier if he is tired earlier in the day b/c of this i would opt for the earlier bedtime to get him back on track.


i would also wait to give the last feeding as close as possible to bedtime - just a thought. ;)

let me know what you think/how things are going!..
here is the link for the aussie swaddle:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0

Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline Mom2katiebug

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We have some night waking issues with our 5MO DD and we tried a lot of things without success. She just never seemed to find deep sleep in the early AM hours.  The one thing that helped was daycare.  Not that this is a solution I'm recommending, but what are you doing for A time and is there a way to increase the stimulation?  I don't have any suggestions and have been trying to figure out more stimulating activities for the non-daycare days but don't have anything other than going to the mall (too cold and rainy most days for the park) and letting DD watch all the kids at the play area of the mall.  Is there another LO in the area that you could arrange a play date with or maybe a mom-n-me group? 
"Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you also have an obligation to be one."  - Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Tawyna,
Thanks again for answering. A few more concerns...

you say an earlier bedtime but I don't do a dreamfeed so then IMO that would mean he eats his last feed earlier and will definatley wake? I don't think there is any way he can sleep thru the night anyway without at least one nighttime feed (which I can handle). So what time bed? I mean he goes now usually around 8-8:30 last night I fed him earlier at 6:30, but he still went to bed his usual time as he's not tired earlier and fusses more when we put him down before 8 - he takes a cat nap around 5-6ish and is definatley not tired before 8 often. We give him bath, food and a book between 7 and 8 usually. I'd prefer to get back to feeding him closer to his bedtime around 8- that seemed to work better for HIM. Since I've changed it, his wakings are a lot worse (ie with the 4 hour EASY it's changed)

Also I am not nursing so what I eat is not an issue so I don't think he has stomach issues and he is not on any meds. The only thing I see as an issue is that binkie. Like I said everything has gone from bad to worse - I even have a call into his doctor today as I am ready to lose my mind.

I keep him up almost 2 hours after his morning feed - isn't that enuf? You said to make him stay up longer but I've also read 2 hours is the most. Also he doesn't nap well or long - sometimes he will but then I wake him like the book says but I am going to stop doing that. I think if he's sleeping, I will let him sleep. Not sure I agree on waking him in the morning either - again that's not working so well for us.

Thanks again Taynia. Sorry if I seem hesitant I just feel since I've made some changes it's gotten worse and maybe I should go back to somewhat what I was doing before? Not feeding every 3 hours but making sure he has a last feed around 8ish so he goes to bed right after.

Thanks,
Lauren

Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Casey,
Yeah we don't do daycare. I stay home but also have a business at home (which is very flexible so it doesn't take time away from him). We did just join a playgroup every other Monday but didn't go today cause it's snowing. He also is going to be going to a music class for babies every Wed for 10 weeks. Otherwise I try to vary his activity but have stopped taken him out all the time (mall, etc.) cause that was affecting his naps worse - he doesnt' sleep in his infant car seat much anymore so I need to be sure I limit my time out so he can nap at home. But for Activity we do all sorts of things- bouncy seat, play games on his blanket (like patty cake, play with toys, etc.), he watches Baby Einstein once a day for 15 min, just got an Exercaucer but has only been in it 10 min a day for last 2 days. Loves his swing (usually he's in that when I am in kitchen as that's where it is). Sits on my lap. It's been too cold to go outside really or for walks. When my husband gets home in the evenings about 5ish he takes him and plays with him too and he gives him tummy time, reads to him, etc.

Should I inrease stimulation any - suggestions?
Lauren

Offline Mom2katiebug

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Lauren - I don't have a lot of suggestions and I'm in the same pickle with Katie.  She doesn't sleep very much in her carseat either (used to be great).  So, any activity that I can think of usually involves a 20 minute drive or more and that has to be factored into the A time.  All I know is that the daycare days with 7 other babies around (crying, crawling, "talking", walking, etc.) and 2 or more teachers gives her SO much stimulation.  I just can't match it at home.  Laundry, dishes, cooking...none of that comes close!  She cries at the 2hr mark for a nap at home, but will go 4hrs or more at daycare.  I'm not happy about that and am trying to fix it, but she just won't close her eyes!  If I think of anything, I will let you know. 

Do you notice a difference on the playgroup days? 
"Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you also have an obligation to be one."  - Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline Wife and Mummy.

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hello,just reading your post.have you tried a sleeping bag?they are great.as for dummy if you have read props page i would try to take it away now if you can.stick with it.whatever you are doing is always OK for you and your baby.
samantha,mum to all.

Offline teezee

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try for a 7 or 7:30 bedtime for a couple days and see how it goes (just to get him caught up) you said that you fed him at 6:30 the other night so it shouldn't be so bad for a few days.  if you don't mind feeding at night (the once or however many times) then that's your decision - myself personally i fed my lo till after 6 months - then weaned the one or two night feedings however you look at it you know your lo.

in your post it said he woke at 8 and went back down by down by 8:30 which i thought was definately not enough A time. but i also think that two hrs is too much for a lo that age - try cutting down to an hr and a half and see how it goes.  i understand that the one day you were trying to make up for lost sleep by the extra morning sleep but i think that is contributing to the night wakings as he is getting more than enough daytime sleep and not tired during the night or willing to go down earlier than 'reg' bedtime.  that's why i suggested maybe an earlier bedtime for a few days to get things back on track with wakings, nap times etc.  you don't want to give 'more' during the day then you won't get the night sleep...i'm kind of ranting here...do u get what i am trying very hard to say??!!!  if he is getting too much daytime sleep you will never have a good night sleeper.  i mean - in the am if he usually gets up at 8 and sleeps to 8:30 i would let that slide and enjoy the extra half hr... :) but not much longer than that if at all longer.  as for naps i never let my lo sleep more than 2 and a half hrs (if i remember correctly at that age anyway) as it will affect how well lo's sleep at night.

i do think you are on the right track - and i do agree with feeding right before bed - whenever beditme is - just remember that change doesn't usually go smoothly with a lo and it will take time and sometimes seem like you are taking a million steps back and only one forward - my rule of thumb for my lo is - try it for a week - if a little improvement try another week.  if it didn't work at all the first week - try another technique.  sometimes i had to go back to the original thing that didn't work and then it worked when i tried again!  it is all experimentaion!!  it may take a bit longer in your case as your lo has to get his sleep sorted out and caught up and then it may show more improvement!
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline teezee

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oh and about the paci - not sure if it works or not - but my lo has the same paci's as when she was first born - haven't changed the size once and i read that eventually her mouth will 'outgrow' it and she'll basically wean herself when she's ready.  i had read that one mom said at about a year her lo didn't find a need for it anymore - hoping it will work for us!
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi again Tawnya,
again thanks!

Yes, he did go down at 8:30 after woke at 8 but that was one time (and he got back up at 9 and wouldn't go back down until almost 10 which I had written) but normally he wakes (again!) eats about 7-8AM and takes a nap 1.5 to 2 hours later. You said 2 hours is too late but isnt' that what he should be on for 4 hour EASY? We just started the 2 hours, before it was 1.5 and he goes down easier if I do 2 hours - he's more tired. He's taken all of his naps today after 2 hours and slept wonderfully - also forgot to say he usually doesn't nap long in the day - maybe 3 hours total if I am lucky so I don't think he's sleeping too much in the AM or day, do you? However today so far we've done this and he's napped wonderfully:
7AM eat 7 oz
9AM - nap until 10:15 (wouldn't go longer)
11AM - eat 7 oz
1PM - nap for 2 hours! Yeah!!!!
3PM eat 7 oz
tired again and just put him down and it's 4:45 and he went right to sleep - no fuss - is this third nap ok? Cause he won't make it until bedtime

I can try the earlier bedtime but then I have that earlier feed versus a 7:30-8 feed so he will for sure wake then right? I do'nt mind one night waking (sometimes 2) but every 2 hours is too much for me. I did try the DF almost a week and he woke more (sometimes I feel that's why he's still waking now???) but maybe not. I always worry to try things cause if they don't work and we go back to something won't he "remember" and still do things the new way? Are babies easy to train back to what you were doing I guess is my question?

Now he ate at 3PM and if I feed him again at 6:30 and put him down at 7:30 isn't that too early a feeding? That's really not close enuf to his bedtime IMO and could be an issue? I would feel better if he ate at let's say 6:15 and then did a cluster at about 8:15 and then to bed - but do you think that would be worse? I guess what's more important his food or the time he goes to bed? That's where I get confused. Cause if he goes to bed at 6:30 he will only get 4 day feedings which is 28 oz and then if you add in his night feeding last night of 4 oz then that's 32 oz but he's used to 5 feedings at 6 oz and then one night feeding at 4 oz so he's 2 oz short. Any suggestions? Should I give 8 oz at his before bed feeding and his morning feeding? He's also a big 4 mos old - 16lbs but my doctor said he's fine (he's a chunk!) so do not want to overfeed of course but want him to have enuf!

Thanks again and also he uses his paci from hospital (we bought a whole bunch) and he loves it so I won't change it! Those Soothies?

Lauren

Offline teezee

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well at that age i know my lo slept longer than 3 hrs during the day - i think it was closer to five hrs.  have u tried extending his naps using shh/pat? pu pd?
i do suggest feeding right before bed - make sure he doesn't fall asleep feeding and if he does wake him by talking to him for a few minutes then put him right to bed with the usual routine.  again, if you feed at 7pm then put him down at 7:30 i don't think it will make THAT much of a difference on the wakings and would definately get him more rest for now.  also his A time isn't too off i just was used to a little less time at that age as my lo had a very hard time moving to a 4 hr easy and we were at 3 1/2 for quite some time. if he is napping better with 2 hrs than stick with it (as long as he isn't getting overtired right before bed...) i'm going to post a link for you about weaning night feedings.  it seems to be meant for an older baby but i dont see the harm in trying it out as it is slowly weaning and helps them take more during the day rather than at night - again it is a slow process so i think it should be ok if u would like to try it. if you have any other questions let me know!

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline MatthewsMommy

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thanks for the link - was a little confused on how to dilute by what she wrote though. I formula feed to let me know how much water to how much formula - he's now getting 4-6 oz at night feedings. Also is he too young to do that too - will it cause any issues in growth, etc? He's only 4 mos old and don't want to do anything to his calorie intake.

Also whatever I did yesterday worked- DS woke up at 3AM- I gave him a 6 oz feed which he sucked down and he was back to bed until 7 which seems to be his wake up time now. He took three naps yesterday and went to bed between 8:30-9 (I doubled up on his feeds at 6:30 and 8:30). Today am going to try to not double up and give him just 4 feeds but give him more at bedtime. I think he's getting too much to eat with 5, 7 oz bottles and then a 4-6oz nigttime feed. Is that too much? My info from my doctor says 24-32 oz a day and he's going beyond that, I just fear getting rid of that 5th feed in the day will cause trouble (and maybe that's what the problem was since I've gone to 4 hour EASY? As last night i gave that extra feed in there and he did so much better). He also went down for each nap and his bedtime without a fuss all day yesterday and is now napping again - same thing- right to sleep. This is what he USED to do so am praying it's back!!!

Anyway let me know on him getting just 4 feeds a day (at 7 oz) versus the 5. I also just changed him to 7 oz knowing he would get just 4 so really think adding one more at that amount plus his waking feed is too much?

Thanks again!
Lauren

Offline teezee

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that is an estimated amount of formula your lo needs...every lo is different some need more some need less.  i am bfing and am definately not the best person to ask though.  on the link - try asking your concerns there...i had asked if doing the weaning at 6 months was ok and they said go for it as it's a gradual reduction so what is being missed at night would be taken during the day - just make sure if u do u are offering more during the day.  like i said, i would ask those questions on the link i gave u they will have better info than i could 'guess' at.  at 4 months i would be iffy too without getting further info about it - my lo woke probably about twice a night at that age and i fed her...like i said til 6 months.  once night waking isn't bad by any means but if u do want to see about cutting that out i'd ask further in that area.

the cluster feeding may work - but beware it won't work long term ... i believe tracy says to cut it out at 8 wks but often it does work a bit longer for some lo's.  i know it was mentioned but have u tried the df for a week at any point and see if that works? just a thought.  sorry i am not of more help. :-\
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Tawnya,
I can live with one night waking - it was the up every few hours that was really frustrating to me. I have no clue why he did that for 2 days? I hope he's back to somewhat of a routine but we'll see. I will check that link about the reducing but think I will wait until he's at least 6 mos and see if solids help as well.

Oh also you had asked about the DF- I tried that and it made things worse as he still woke up about 3-4 for a feed so really wasn't worth it to me. I also know he CAN sleep thru the night - he's done it before for about a 2 week stretch - once at about 6 weeks and once at 2 mos.

Thanks again - will keep trying to keep him on track now in the day and his naps, etc. I think that's helped- you've been a big help - thank you,
Lauren

Offline teezee

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hope things keep progressing for you and remember if there is a set back or two don't give up - lo's need consistency!!!
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline JennyE

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Hi Lauren,

I just thought you would like to know that you are not alone.  I went on the site looking for some answers, ideas, etcc..and cam across your thread.  I could have written it about my son who is now 41/2 months.  Over the past week or so, his sleeping has gotten progressively worse - last night he was up every hour.  2 weeks ago he was sleeping thru until about 5 or 6 each morning. I had the same paci questions, but don't know what I should be doing either.  We just stopped swaddling lo b/c he'd basically outgrown the Miracle Blanket.  But that was 3 weeks ago, so I don't think that is what is causing the problem.

To complicate things, my mother kept him 2 nights ago so that we could get some sleep.  He only woke up once at 4am to eat.....so I don't know what is going on.

I stay home with my son too - and give him a lot of attention during the day.  I am starting to wonder if he just doesn't like being alone in the crib.  I think he'd rather be with us. 

I don't know what to do next.  I have been a Zombie for the past 4 days.  I just hope every night that he will do better - but it hasn't improved.  I obviously don't have any great suggestions - but just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone.

Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Jenny,
So glad I am not alone even though it's very frustrating.  You sound about as frustrated as I am! I am at my wits end and am thinking of trying the DF again. I gave it four days last time but think I'll try for a week and if doesn't work drop it. I just can't sleep anymore knowing I will be awakened between midnight and 4 am and sometimes every 2 hours. I am exhausted (as I am sure you are!) and I just mentally can't take it anymore. Also am confused as he's now on the 4 hour easy and I posted this on the feedling forum (no replies really) that he's now missing a feeding since he got 5 feedings a day (not including night feedings) on 3 hour easy and now he gets 4. He was getting 6 ounces on 3 hour easy and I had upped it to 7 ounces about 2 weeks ago when I was transitioning him into the 4 hour easy. I tried 8 but he barely will take it. So now 4 feedings at 7 ounces versus his 5 feedings at 6-7 ounces  so that's a little less amount of formula per day and could this be an issue? Tracy doesn't address this in her books - she states at his age he should have 5-8 oz every 4 hours but it doesn't talk about what you should up the feed to when you make the 4 hour easy change to make the ounces the same or more? Am so confused...does this make sense?

Also question - how did you stop swaddling? We use Miracle blanket too and he keeps getting out of it. I tried today at his nap to leave his arms out and he'd wake after 45 min screaming. I then reswaddled him so he could finish his nap. Tried again at bed to leave his arms out (he's discovered his thumb and would like him to use it!) but again wouldnt' sleep. Second I swaddled him he was out. So it's another issue.

Anyway, I hope you get some sleep - do you do the DF?

Thanks for posting and sharing!
Lauren

Offline Katet

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you say an earlier bedtime but I don't do a dreamfeed so then IMO that would mean he eats his last feed earlier and will definatley wake? I don't think there is any way he can sleep thru the night anyway without at least one nighttime feed (which I can handle). So what time bed? I mean he goes now usually around 8-8:30 last night I fed him earlier at 6:30, but he still went to bed his usual time as he's not tired earlier and fusses more when we put him down before 8 - he takes a cat nap around 5-6ish and is definatley not tired before 8 often. We give him bath, food and a book between 7 and 8 usually. I'd prefer to get back to feeding him closer to his bedtime around 8- that seemed to work better for HIM. Since I've changed it, his wakings are a lot worse (ie with the 4 hour EASY it's changed)

 The only thing I see as an issue is that binkie.

I keep him up almost 2 hours after his morning feed - isn't that enuf? You said to make him stay up longer but I've also read 2 hours is the most. Also he doesn't nap well or long - sometimes he will but then I wake him like the book says but I am going to stop doing that. I think if he's sleeping, I will let him sleep. Not sure I agree on waking him in the morning either - again that's not working so well for us.


i think he doesn't seem tired to put to bed earlier as he is already over tired, I would try a 7pm bedtime (move catnap to 4.30-5pm) & then be prepared to feed 2 xnight & see if that improves things, just reading the wakeups I read Overtired & binkie (assume that means paci) problem

2 hours may also actually be too long & cause the short naps, rather than needing longer ones... you really need to look at your lo's sleep signs more than the clock
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline MatthewsMommy

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ok can try earlier bedtime but is last feed would be at 7:30 (it's usually 7 but was later today) due to the 4 hour EASY - I could bump it up 30 min? I did a DF last night - am going to try it again and give it a week before I throw in the towel on that. He woke at 2:30 and binkie didn't work for an hour - ended up feeding him again. Woke again at 5:30 - didn't feed until 7:30. It's frustrating. He can't need this much food but that's all that gets him back to sleep and his wakings are erratic. He's 16lbs and gets quite enuf to eat so am perplexed....

Anyway will try the earlier bedtime. Also, I do'nt impose the catnap right? He always takes one on his own between 6 and 7 in his swing (while my husband and I have our dinner) and it's usually about 45 min. I've tried putting him in his crib for catnap and he won't have it- likes it in the swing while we eat and that's fine with me as long as it's not an issue but he decides to nap, I don't impose it if that makes sense.

Lauren

Offline Katet

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It could be food... trust me both my boys were over 17lb at 3months & althought bf & #1 did feed a lot, #2 not so much (although fast & efficient I think... just cos the norm says X doesn't mean that both my dh & I are tall & so the boys are & to be tall they need to grow lots in their first 2 years (1/2 adult height at age 2) & to get the bone structure they need calcium.

For me the 4hour easy meant 3.5 -4.5 hours as I am not a strict clockwatcher & also have a toddler. I think the key is not to let him be overtired, rather than keep a strict routine

Honestly if the waking is erratic & he only goes back to sleep with food, that is your answer he needs the food, he is waking with hunger
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline MatthewsMommy

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agree, he must be waking for food - cause it is erratic and also he takes the feed and then is happy. But let me ask you this- with the DF being added should he still have woken up to eat at 2:59 am (I remember the time cause it was not quite 3 - LOL!). I mean he had his DF at 10:45. He didn't sleep much longer than his usual night waking times, or will it take a few nights to "kick in". If it doesn't kick in after a week should I drop the DF? Cause I've added a feeding now of course and then if I still feed at night seems silly. Or should I try to do the DF and wean the feedings when he wakes per that info you gave me on that link?

My husband and I are both small - I am 5'2" and he's 5'8" but Matthew was 7lbs 10 oz at birth, we can't figure out why or why he's so big!!! He probably will be short too. And neither of us are heavy either. Go figure!

Lauren

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just to add to what kate said - if he is hungry he needs to be fed..the only thing to keep an eye on is if b/c of the night feedings he's not taking as much during the day. ie his morning feeding isn't that great.  also, the df may take a little while to kick in...if it doesn't work after a week or two it may not be your lo's thing.
Tawnya
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June 11, 2005




Offline Katet

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It does take a few days for the df to kick in but it can be worth trying to 'reduce' the size of the feed you offer at the feeds you want to drop, so it doesn't take away from day feeds
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline MatthewsMommy

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ah....ok, this is not working! I did the DF twice and on the 2nd night he woke for it and was up every 2 hours last night. I can't keep doing this and it's getting worse. I am trying to follow advice given here but nothing seems to be working for me. I moved his bedtime up, upped his feeds in the day, tried the DF. I don't know what to do anymore. When I first posted on the board I had 1-2 wakings a night, now I feel I am in a nightmare with the constant wakings since trying to get rid of those 1-2 wakings everything is off kilter and worse. He's on a good routine and eats well in the day and doesn't nap a lot so I have no clue what is the problem with the wakings.

Sorry. I am just at my wits end now. I am not going to to the DF anymore, he wakes during it and for it now. I need to get him to sleep thru longer stretches like he used to and I don't know how now. I feel I have gone 10x backwards. :-(
Lauren

Offline Katet

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Firstly regression is NORMAL & infact it can get worse before better & 2 nights of a df is not going to tell you it works or not.

You say he doesn't sleep too much in the day... can you pot what your day routine is like most of the time... not the one you hope for but the one you actually get. As I think overtiredness could be a part.

Also if you chop & change things every couple of days that is a guarantee that it will get worse as he gets confused... like travelling a different route to a destination... if you use 10 different routes you will never fully understand one
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Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi again,
I am not changing his routine around though (except the DF and tried an earlier bedtime) and he naps well (sorry I probably didn't write that correctly) - all I've changed is trying the DF, tried an earlier bedtime last night and he's on 4 hour easy which we transitioned into in 15 min increments over a few weeks. Here's his typical schedule though and it doesn't devitate much.

7AM - 7 oz eat
9AM - nap for 1.5-2 hours (sometimes 1 hour but usually not)
11AM - 7 oz eat
1PM - nap again -1.5 - 2 hours
3PM - 7 oz eat
5-6:30- capnap in his swing (only about 45 min, he just usually will catnap around this timeframe when he's not having acitivity time)
7ish- bath, book, bed by about 8ish and one last feed (7oz)
now without DF (between 10:30 and 11) he's been getting up about 2AM and again at 4 AM and 5AM and 6AM... with DF, it's 10:30 PM, midnight, 2AM, you get the picture

I think his routine is good? I feed him only ONCE at night on these wakings - about 4-6 oz and he takes it all and goes back to sleep, no matter the amount. The rest he will only go back to sleep with binkie but I have to keep putting it in as even if he falls asleep and it falls out he wakes up right away and wants it. He doesn't seem to get into a DEEP SLEEP. He always wakes at 5:30 and then again at 7 and that was prior to anything - seems to be his habitual wakeup times.   Other times are erratic.

Hope this helps!
Lauren

Offline teezee

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just to throw another thought out there (i don't think this has been mentioned at all...) could your lo not be getting into a deep sleep b/c of pain, tummy troubles, etc??  i know i thought i had a huge paci prop problem on my hands with my lo always waking and that was the only thing that got her back to sleep - in reality it just comforted her b/c she was really uncomfortable and couldn't get through the light period of sleep (her sleep cycle) b/c of it. have you tried gripe water or something of that nature before bed or even before the last feeding??
Tawnya
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June 11, 2005




Offline Katet

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The two things I would be looking at is the binkie, the fact he keeps waking when it falls out says it is a prop... 4months is about the time it swings either way... looks like it is a prop for your ds.
The second is his awake time seems a bit long to me... for both my ds at 4months slightly less than 2 hours was their max... I actually had to do a bit of juggling & I actually think he probably needs 3 long naps for a month or so then he will be mature enough for 2 naps + catnap.

All that said your lo hasn't read the book & "good" you think the routine is, it may not be right for him, he may have been better at 3.5hour easy still or a 3/3.5/3/3.5 kind of pattern. All babies are different & to be honest the only way I found to 'stop' night wakings with ds#1 was to "follow his lead' he still can nap from 3-5pm & be ready for bed at 7.30pm & sleep well, where as most mums I know with 2.5yo would say....Oh I have to wake him/her up by 3 or they will never go to bed.

So can I suggest try to watch him more & the clock less for a few days & see what his "cues" are telling you & maybe you can find the "tweeks" to the routine that he needs
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline teezee

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how is the lo doing now??
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005




Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Tawnya,
He's up every 2-3 hours still at night. Just ready to lose my mind. I do not think he's hungry either. I didn't feed him at all last night and he did fine with the paci and going back to sleep. I fed him night before and he STILL woke all night after. I do not think it's a food issue, but a sleep issue. I am at my wits end and just don't know what's going on but I do know 2 things:

1. it's been happening ever since I tried a DF - but that was 2 weeks ago and I will never do a DF again
2. also since he's been on 4 hour Easy

I don't want to keep changing things around for him but just don't know what to do anymore. He goes right back to sleep but the constant wakings....

Lauren

Offline teezee

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what do you do to get lo back to sleep when you do have the night wakings? if you are just putting the paci in that may have become a prop - but if you are ok with that right now then so be it - he just may keep waking for it once he gets into that light sleep part of the cycle and realizes he doesn't have it anymore. have you tried gentle removal? if not, here is a link so you can get more info about it and maybe you will want to try this as an option? good luck, and please keep me posted, wish i could be more help...but i am here to support you! {{{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}}}}

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0
Tawnya
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June 11, 2005




Offline MatthewsMommy

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Hi Tawyna,
Update- LO is doing very well. I didn't read your link yet but I kind of took matters into my own hands knowing what I thought was issue and from the books I've read (including BW) and here's what we have done:

1. stopped the swaddle - started with naps as of last Sunday and weaned him completley three nights ago
2. let him CIO but ONLY for 10 min (he never made it this long on each occasion)
3. stopped night feedings about 3 nights ago as even with them he still woke every 2 hours after...
4. Added back in one day feeding cause I never did the DF so I didn't think 4 feeds every 4 hours was good enuf unless I did a night feed. Even at his age, Tracy says ever 4 hours but without the DF, I feel that's not enuf food. So now he's eating every 3.5 - I cluster the last one at about 2.5 and he goes to bed after
5. Earlier bedtime - about 7:30

So guess what? last 2 nights he has slept thru the night!!! Last night he only woke once and cried for a minute at 3:30 otherwise he's sleeping from 7:30-6 now! It's pure joy! I think I needed to figure out what my own son's issue was and stop trying to implement things by the "book" if you will as even though a lot of stuff helps, not everything did (like the DF for us didn't work). I know everything I did is not BW but it worked for me and my son. I think the CIO was needed (I couldn't do it long term or that Ferber thing) cause he needed to know we would not come in each time he cried and be comfortable getting himself back to sleep. I think it was key to stop the swaddle as he was breaking out and needed his hands for soothing. I also think the earlier bedtime helped and adding back in a feeding.

He now eats 7 oz, 5x a day, no night feedings. And his naps are better and longer.

With daylight savings I think we'll be ok cause he gets up at 6 so it will be 7. The bedtime may be a little harder so have to figure that out.

Anyway, thanks for all your advice and sticking with me. I needed to figure it out on my own what would work for my DS.

Let's hope it continues. If not, am still not changing anything now cause he CAN sleep thru and he's getting enuf to eat.

Lauren

Offline teezee

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congrats to you!!

only 1 thing i may caution you about is the cio/cc - you have come sooo far i don't want lo to cio/cc and lose trust in you! i'm glad you found 'what works for you' though - i couldn't be happier!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Tawnya
Mommy to Alecksandria
June 11, 2005