Is that a bad routine?

[Alicja]

I strated pu/pd with my son (almost 5 mos now)2,5 weeks ago. After a week or so he got a hang. Now I put him in a cot and he goes to sleep quickly (1-10 min) without pu/pd or pat/shh. But it works only for naps. I dont't why but nigt sleep is a horror. I've tried put him after 2 hrs or 2 30' or 2 40' of activity but it always looks the same: he falls asleep after about an hour (with cry in this time of course). He wakes up about 6.15-6.45. And here's his routine (let's say he wakes at 6.30):
  6.30 wake
E: 7.00 bf
A
S 8.30-10.15 (about 1h 45)
A
E 11.00 bf
A
S 12.30-14.15 (about 1h 45')
E 14.30 bf
A
S 16.30-17.30 (about 1h)
E 18.00 bf
A
E 19.30 bf (I've tried but he eats very little)
19.50 bath
20.20 put in bed
21.10 sleep

Today he woke at 6.50, ate and slept until 8.10. In this situation i skiped the nap at 16.00-17.00 and put him at 19.15 (after 2h 40' of activity). But he cried over an hour an in the end fell asleep at 20.25
What am I doing wrong?

[Lªuren]

Hi Alicja

I've just been looking at the bedtime part of your routine, everything is spot-on.

First off well done with the pu/pd success. 

Can I ask some questions;
Do you adopt a different wind down procedure at night?
Do you want his bedtime to be this late or is it just working out like this?
Have you tried delaying the last bf until 8pm or doing a bit a 1930 then try again after the bath when he is more relaxed?

I am a little confused by the bottom part, did he wake at 0650 get fed then go right back to sleep? This would be treated as a night feed. He really sould be up from this point to start the day at 7am ish (thats what your routine suggests) and getting fed again at 11am.

Your LO needs a consistant rountine for waking and bedtime, sorry if I have missread the bottom part.

[Alicja]

No, the procedure before sleep is always the same: sitting in a chair, rolling and singing a song.
I'd like his bedtime earlier and sleep more at night (it is max 10 hrs now) but I thougt it is another problem so I didn't mention it.
About bf: i didn't try to feed him after bath. What do you suggest? Bath, bf and then a song?
And about a 6.50 awake and a feed: you may be right that he treated it as a nigt feed because he usually wakes 2 times a nigt but this time he did only once (I introduced DF yesterday). What should I do in that situation? Don't let him sleep? 
I'd like to add that when I put him in a cot he really tries to fall asleep, he even keeps his yes closed for about 5 min, then begins to dawdle and after about half an hour he cries.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions!

[Lªuren]

No, the procedure before sleep is always the same: sitting in a chair, rolling and singing a song.
I'd like his bedtime earlier and sleep more at night (it is max 10 hrs now) but I thougt it is another problem so I didn't mention it.
About bf: i didn't try to feed him after bath. What do you suggest? Bath, bf and then a song?
And about a 6.50 awake and a feed: you may be right that he treated it as a nigt feed because he usually wakes 2 times a nigt but this time he did only once (I introduced DF yesterday). What should I do in that situation? Don't let him sleep? 
I'd like to add that when I put him in a cot he really tries to fall asleep, he even keeps his yes closed for about 5 min, then begins to dawdle and after about half an hour he cries.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions!

Try either; bf at 1930 then after the bath so it is split. or just after the bath. You can only try for a few nights, if it doesn't work then we need to think of something else. Bath, bf and then a song/book sounds good as it means he is not being fed to sleep.

Allow the d/f time to start worling, may be up to a week. I would treat the 0650 as his wake up and continue E, A then S as normal.

To teach him to sleep independantly you really need to know how he falls asleep, it may mean that you watch him go through is cycles, does he have jolts and when, etc.  It maybe that he cannot get himself from lightsleep to a deeper sleep usually after20 - 30 mins and is waking up. Have you tried putting a hand over him to reassure. Or it may be that you need to do PU/PD.  I am no expert at PU/PD so it may be worth while posting in the sleep forum if your unsure.

HTH's

[Lªuren]

how about

  6.30 wake
E: 7.00 bf
A
S 8.30-10.15 (about 1h 45)
A

E 11.00 or 11.30 bf
A
S 12.30-14.15 (about 1h 45')

E 15.00 or 15.30 bf
A
S 16.30-17.30 (about 1h)

E 19.00 bf
A bath, wind down, etc....
S 20.00 put in bed


or
E 1845 bf
A bath,
E 1915 or 1930 with song/book?
S in bed awake for 2000 - 2015

However this means dropping a feed! would your Lo cope with that?

You can have a look anyway and so if you can move anything about a bit. My DS usually goes 4.5hr with no feed, however he is bottlefed. But it gives you something to think about. 

Keep me posted.

[*Natasha*]

Have you tried PU/PD or Shh/Patt for his bedtime as well? Your routine sounds good to me and sounds like you are doing all the right things. It sounds like he may just need a hand settling down for his night sleep like you did for his naps.
I think Calum's Mum covered everything else i would have recommended 
Good luck and keep us posted.

[Alicja]

Thank for all advice. But now I must get back on track. My son woke at 1.00 pm and didn't sleep until 3.45 Then he woke at 6.00am.. Maybe because I skipped the 16.00 nap? Or introduced df? Now he's sitting with me because his first nap lasted only 50min. All I need now is to be patient, but... By the way my question: would you keep a child activate until the next nap in situations like this? (it's 9.00am now in Poland)

[Lªuren]

Alicja
Give the df up to work to work, yes try to keep him up, even with a low-key A time.

[Alicja]

Success! It's the second evening my son got to sleep without scream! I keep the 18.00 feed, because he's very hungry and keeping him til 18.45 or 19.00 makes no sense. But I've started to bf after bath. And I put him in a cot after 2h30' of activity and it's working! Thank you for suggestions and opinions!

[Lªuren]

Excellent news - well done