how do you get them to bed earlier?

[imsmum]

There are a lot of recommendations on this board for an earlier bedtime and I know this certainly helped my dd when she was first transitioning down to one nap.  My problem is dd now won't go down any earlier unless I move naptime earlier but then I just get a shift in the whole day--including an earlier wakeup which is no good--dd already wakes up at 5-5:30!!

For quite some time dd would fall asleep exactly 5 hours after she woke from her nap.  It's now closer to 5 1/4 to 5 1/2 hours later.  This is a real problem when she actually manages to nap longer than 1.5 to 1.75 hours because then she is going to bed too late and she wakes in the night.  So unfortunately our pattern looks like this --2 nights sleep from 7:30-5:30, nap 12:30-2, the next day she may nap 12:30-3, sleep at 8 but then up at 1 for 2 hours, back to sleep until 7 etc.

I've now told our nanny not to let dd sleep any later than 2:30 so hopefully that will help with the night waking but I'd love to try an earlier bedtime (especially with the time change coming up) so she'll sleep closer to 4.5 hours after wakeup in the hopes that will help extend her wakeup time a bit.   Any suggestions on how to shorten that interval between nap and bedtime?

[sacmommy]

If she can't go to bed earlier, I'm not sure that you can make her. Why are you trying for an earlier bedtime?

I know where you're at with her getting up too early ~ my 4-yo son is the same way. He goes to bed at 7:30, but too often gets up before 6 ~ especially now with the lighter mornings. He doesn't nap anymore, so he never makes up the sleep. It's a bummer.

Here are my ideas for getting an earlier bedtime:
- lots of activity right after her nap (hide and seek, park play, biking, etc.)
- lots of books/relaxing activity before bed (we read to my son for up to 30-45 minutes on days when he seems really wound up, but only 10 minutes on most days as he's usually so tired!)
- make your sleep routine and rules very clear to her so that she's always ready for bedtime when you're through with your routine.

[Florencia]

You got excellent advice on the previous post, and i also would like to add two insights:

1. I have the EXACT same proble, , i love the break that a long nap gives me but then end up paying with a super late bedtime LOL. I've set a top of 2 hour naps and since ds got it, i can get him to go to bed for nap at least 15 to 30 mins earlier than he used to. At the beggining, if i tried to put him down earlier, he'd nap for 1 hour or so. But when he got used to nap for 2 hours exactly, i was able to go backwards and that bought me some evening time for bedtime not to be so late.

2. I don't think the 2 hour night waking is due to bedtime/nap. For me, your dd seems to be having her recquired amount of sleep. You don't mention her age but i'm almost positive that toddler night wakings (sp the ones that used to sleep through no probs) mean teething or some discomfort like body ache from a cold or soemthing like that. What does she look like when waking? what is she doing? is she talking? i know when ds wakes at night babbling and talking i'm up for trouble cause i know he's woken for good. When he just cries and whines it means he's not totally awake and something is disturbing him. DO you have a way to figure you dd out?

Keep us posted to see if we can come up with something else

[Harrisonsmummy]

For what it's worth, I also think that unless you can wear them out with activity (and that seems to have it's own pitfalls- Harri gets overtired then takes longer to get to sleep), I think it's really hard to get them to sleep earlier! I tried with the UK time change, and that has shifted wake up time to 6am, and I am trying to keep Harrison on a routine, based on the fact that he seems to be sleeping 10 - 10.5 hours overnight, with a nap that is just creeping up to 2 hours.

I am going to limit his nap to 2 hours anyway - that should suffice without wrecking bedtimes!

It is strange what works for some, I have a friend whose son rarely slept through the night (multiple brief wakings) but could nap well for a couple of hours. For some reason (accidental) she found that a 1 hour nap, stopped the night wakings and he now sleeps roughly 12 hours at night, so I would restrict Margot's nap to keep nights ok. Can you really gradually shift the nap backwards to compensate?

Or what happens if you limit nap to 2 hours and push bedtime back a bit in line with 5 1/2hr wake time - will she wake a fraction later? Even 10 minutes can be celebratory!! All I think is it can take several weeks for these effects to kick in, (so all the books say) so try it for a week and see what happens. I think if bedtime is always at the same time they are supposed to get used to it - don't know how we can achieve this at the moment - but you may not be far off.......

Sorry for waffle, kind of thinking as I go along!

Justine

[imsmum]

Wanted to try the shorter interval between nap and bedtime/ earlier bedtime in the hopes that this would extend night time sleep (dd only gets 10 hours on a good day) and that this would extend naps (again only 1.5 hours)

I know an extended interval between nap and bed causes night waking in dd--as I said in the past the earlier bedtime/shorter nap interval has helped with this.  Not sure that she is getting as much sleep as she needs.  She is happy most days but is so easily thrown off by anything in her schedule.  for example, the last 2 days have been gorgeous spring weather here and she's been able to go to the park.. She's been so excited that she's had difficulty winding down to sleep, fallen asleep late and yep, you guessed it-woke at night, happy to babble away for 2 hours, but getting only about 8.75 hours of broken night sleep and absolutely miserable the next day.

Florencia I'm interested about what you said about the nap length and nap time but I don't think I understand exactly what you did.  Did you limit the nap to 2 hours and then move it 1/2 an hour earlier?  Or did you move it earlier and it extended from 1 hour to 2 hours? And my dd is like your ds in that if she's awake and babbling she's up and up for good.  TIf she cries which is often it is hit and miss--sometimes I can get in there and get her settled but more often by the time I am aware enough of what's going on it's too late for me to get her resettled as she is fully awake.  Most night waking is just the babbling though.

We already do the park after nap, talk about her day during winddown because as she is talking more it's pretty clear she "re-lives" her day as she is falling asleep and have a very set bed routine--her choice--this girlie loves her routines!

Justine--I agree the activity is a bit of a double edged sword, as my comments about the park show...The trouble with shifting the nap back is that they are still usually only 1.5 hours with only the occasional long one just to throw things off, so on routine days the earlier naptime would mean earlier bedtime, and the dreaded earlier w/u time...I think in your posts you said that you had changed Harri's interval form 5 1/4 down to 3.5.  How did you do this?  ITtsounds like Harri's naps have gotten a bit longer.  Do you think this is because of the shorter interval or did the longer naps cause the shorter interval?

Oh man, my head is spinning...    

[Carmela's Mom]

Carmela goes to bed at 7 p.m. currently.  She has been waking before 6 (somedays as early as 4:45)  and her naps are all over the place.  She insists on skipping but I insist she take it.  It's been a struggle to say the least.  we have dealt with sleep problems for TWO years with this kid and at this point, I am exhausted.  I tried a 6:30 bedtime, tried 7:30 and we stuck at 7 for awhile now.  And nothing seems to move the time.  Well I shouldn't say that, she goes through spurts.  So sometimes she does sleep later.

Anyway, with daylight savings time, we are moving her to 8:00.  It's going to be a big stretch for her as she hasn't gone to bed that late consistently since she was 4 months old.  But with summer on the way and a new baby, we really love to get outside.  We figure if she's not going to sleep through to a decent hour at 7 and we're dealing with overtired child constantly, then seriously we may as well have fun ourselves with the later bedtime and more "family time" in the evening (DH doesn't get home until 6:00 from work).  So we are giving this an honest try for ONE month and we'll see how it goes.  We can always move it earlier if we absolutely need to. 

[Harrisonsmummy]

My head has been spinning for months too! I think Harrison is just naturally stretching out his naps - there isn't any rhyme or reason that I can see - and sounds like Margot is too, the odd one here and there shows they can do it.......my reading indicates that longer naps occur several months into the transition!

I have really only got Harrison to sleep really early when he has been knackered from overnight wake-ups and short naps I think! That is when it seems to be essential, and also then he doesn't wake that much earlier than he would.

I also think that teeth are playing a part - perhaps they niggle away, and make them more wakeful during the lighter sleep episodes. Harrison is just cutting the last canine, and he has woken crying from a nap a couple of times which I put down to that.

I hope that consistency will perhaps play more of a part too, if they are used to going to sleep at 7.30pm say, then that is when they will naturally be sleepy? Certainly seems to be the case with wake-ups!

Justine

[Florencia]

Imsmum, to answer your question yes, ds was napping up to 2.5 - 3 hours and then bedtime would be super late. So i set the nap to be 2 hours and woke him at the 2-2:10 hr mark. He got used to his nap being 2 hours long for 2 weeks (if he'd woke before the 2 hour mark, i'd stay in the room pat/shsing or do the wake to sleep when he got in a row of 1:45 min hors) i spent like 3 weeks till i was sure he'd be napping for the exact 2 hours and then, tried to move the nap 15 mins earlier in week intervals. I was doing 6 hour awake time before the nap and now i'm willing to have 5:15 hours awake time and still get the 2 hour nap.

I guess your dd will like this consistency since you say she loves her routines. I agree with you that she's not getting enough sleep, she seems to be one active little girl but id also wouldn't discard the teething thing. SOmetimes you wouldn't beleive their teething cause they seem perfect during awake time and don't cry from pain. But light sleep can be an indicative that she's upset or umconfortable, so a pain aid before bed might surprise you!

Good luck and keep us posted, PM if you need extra info!

[imsmum]

Thanks all!  After waking at 5:30 this morning Margot slept from 12:15 to 2:30 today when the nanny woke her up in order to keep Margot from falling to sleep too late tonight so we'll see how things go.  Starting to wonder if maybe the earlier naptime isn't the key to allow for a longer nap but it's getting them there on a consistent basis that's tricky.  Our time change is this w/e so maybe I'll try what you did Justine  and only shift the nap a bit, not the full hour and see how that goes...I'll let you know how it goes.

Caroline

[imsmum]

Brief update...tried for the earlier bedtime last night because dd was CRANKY when I got home last night.  didn't get an "earlier"bedtime but managed to get her to sleep by 7:30 with my hand on her chest which at least is only 5 hours from nap wakeup instead of her usual 5+.  She woke this morning at 5 seemed to fall back to sleep after 10 minutes but then "woke" crying.  After waiting to see if she would settle I went in... Big mistake, she just wanted me to take her out of her crib.  Managed to get her to lie down by lying down on the floor, but she didn't really calm down.  Needless to say there was no more sleep in sight. 
After spending her morning at the park she fell asleep at 12:15 but woke at 1.  she managed to fall asleep from 1:30  to 2:30 when my nanny woke her to help protect an early bedtime.  I'm thinking of just letting her sleep as long as she wants at her nap now that she is so much more active playing in the park most of the day... It seems to have made her so tired that she's overtired.    Things sure will be interesting with the time change this w/e...